6 Finger (or toes) on Giants (and pygmies) or Personages

[Jim_Duyer]

I haven't found, in the search, a specific topic on this, so I thought I would share some information.

Extra fingers, toes, or both, are called Polydactyl aka Hyperdactyl. There have been many reports of this in the historical records, in both ancient and modern times. For example, Fox, the previous President of Mexico is said to have had 6 digits.

Mesopotamian priests and sorcerers were often consulted about the significance of
polydactylism. Some of their conclusions appear in the seventh-century Assyrian
collection of omen texts called the šumma izbu:

“If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six fingers on the right hand—poverty
will seize the house of the man.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six fingers on the left hand—[the mother] is endowed with prosperity; [the man’s] adversary will die.

So to them, it seems it mattered as to which hand it was on. Oddly, this is just the opposite of the beliefs of the ancient Hebrews, to whom the right hand was lightness, good, righteous and the left hand darkness, evil, chaos.

Numerous other examples of polydactylism in art and archaeology are known to us.
From the Neolithic temple (c. sixth millennium B.C.) at Jericho, we have the six-toed
foot of a clay statue. At Ain Ghazal in Jordan, a nearly 3-foot-tall Neolithic statue was
discovered that also has six toes.

This 'Ain Ghazal, a Neolithic settlement near Amman, Jordan, was active from about 7250 B.C., or perhaps earlier, and Archaeologists have found numerous figurines that were made before the development of pottery. They were displaying these physical signs on hand-made statues before they even began to throw pottery.

The most remarkable statues were of human figures made of lime plaster that had
been layered over bundles of twigs, reeds and other grasses. They had short bodies
and legs but large heads with large and prominent eyes made of a whiter material
than the rest of the figurine and outlined with black pigment. Some of the figurines
had two heads. The foot of one statue has six toes.

In the Levant, polydactylism—an excess of fingers or toes—was considered to be a mark of the Rephaim, a race of giants. If you were a giant, you apparently needed more fingers or toes. According to Genesis, the Rephaim were one of the peoples who lived in Canaan before the Israelite conquest (see Genesis 15:18–21). In Deuteronomy 3:11, we learn indirectly about the impressive stature of the Rephaim. Og, the last king of the Rephaim, possessed an iron bed “nine cubits long and four cubits wide.” A cubit is about 18 inches, so Og’s bed measured over 13 feet in length.


A fragmentary portrait statue of an Egyptian of the XIIIth dynasty c. 1783–1640 B.C.), found by chance near Akko in Israel, displays unmistakable traces of six fingers on his right hand.

The legend of Cuchullain (koo-KUL-lin), the Irish hero of the Ulster cycle who is supposed to have lived in the first century A.D., claims that he had seven toes on each foot and sevenfingers on each hand, plus seven pupils to each eye.

At the pilgrim center of Maria-Laach in Austria, there is a painting, done in about 1440 and much venerated by cripples, that is known as “die Maria mit den sechs Fingern” (The Mary with Six Fingers). Here Mary, mother of Jesus, has six fingers on her right hand.

A Spanish statue in wood, dated 1609 and displayed in the church of St. John in Oud Valkenburg, Holland, shows John the Baptist with six fingers on the right hand. A fine painting, attributed to Maerten van Heemskerck of Alkmaar (or to Jan van Scorel) and now in the Marquis of Salisbury’s collections at Hatfield House in Britain, depicts Adam and Eve seated before the Tree of Knowledge, in which lurks the serpent. Adam raises his left hand, which has six fingers, and points his index finger.

Ann Boleyn, Henry VIII’s unhappy Queen whom he beheaded on charges of high treason and adultery, is described by an admittedly hostile witness (Nicholas Sanders) as having had six fingers on her right hand. Without explicitly saying she was a witch, he certainlyimplies she was an evil influence. So in this time period the English agreed with the Mesopotamians, that if it is on the right hand it is evil, or connected with Witchcraft and Satan.

In St. Paul’s Church in Malta, a now unfortunately headless limestone statue of St. Paul, and yes this is the same Paul that wrote many books of the New Testament,
from the 16th century, has six toes on the left foot. The motif occurs again in an 18th-century fresco now in the refectory of the Catholic Seminary in St. Chalcedonius Square, Floriana, where, in illustration of the visit of Nebuchadnezzar’s steward to Daniel and his companions (Daniel 1:1–12), Daniel is pointing with his left hand to the food and drink that they reject. Six fingers can be clearly seen on his hand, no doubt indicating his supernatural powers, since we have his interpretation of the king’s dream in the next chapter.


No overall pattern is observable. Early examples seem to indicate that polydactylism was a characteristic of giants, or of people with super powers or extra strength. In this connection, we find some depictions with even more than six fingers or toes.

The Pueblo people of Chaco Canyon in the four-corners area of New Mexico, decorated their great houses with six-digit footprints and sandal-shaped art. In the great houses of Chaco Canyon, New Mexico, having an extra toe was one way to garner a lot of respect. This unique prehistoric Pueblo culture thrived in the high desert of Chaco Canyon about a thousand years ago. Scientists have known about polydactyly among these people for years, based on images and skeletal remains showing extremities with extra fingers and toes. But past research revealed only hints about its importance to the ancient culture.

To determine how common polydactyly was among the Chacos, the researchers conducted an analysis of 96 skeletons excavated from Pueblo Bonito during prior expeditions. The team analyzed full skeletons that were painstakingly reassembled over many years by co-author Kerriann Marden, a biological anthropologist at Eastern New Mexico University.

The anthropologists found three polydactyl individuals among the 96 skeletons, all with a sixth toe on the little toe-side of the right foot.

That may not sound like a lot, but at 3.1 percent of the Chaco population, it represents a much higher rate of polydactyly than what’s seen in modern Native Americans: Today only 0.2 percent of them are affected. More broadly, in the United States just 0.13 percent of Caucasians and 1.4 percent of African Americans are reported to have extra digits, though scientists suspect many cases may go unreported.


We also see this featured in the art works of the early Maya, where divine powers were attributed to polydactyls. They were held to be better able to speak to the Sky Gods.


My research touched on this with the works of the artist William Blake. Blake was very much an esoteric individual, and very in tune with the advanced knowledge that was held closely by his contemporaries. One of his paintings is called The Night of Enitharmon's Joy, and is supposedly an image of Hecate, the Greek Goddess. It is not.

What we have with his image is Lilith, the night witch of early Hebrew fame, mentioned in the Bible and against whom protective amulets were fashioned. Rabbi folklore posits that Lilith was the first spouse of Adam, who rejected here because she tried to dominate him. Her revenge included sending the serpent to the Garden of Eden to sway Eve, and from that time after her banishment, she was said to take newborn children from the homes of the Jews, or send one of her demon spirits. Now they were called Owls by early Hebrew authors, since they preyed at night. So in the image by Blake we have Lilith to the front, an owl on the left, a serpent (from the Garden), a Bat (another unclean bird relating to the taking of blood at night) and Adam and Eve sheltering behind her. Now in most of the versions of this image, that's what you see. I found one version by Blake in which Lilith has six toes on her right foot - that you can find below. The donkey in the image, by the way, is actually an Ass, and it relates to Blake's icon of the birth of Jesus, who, to Blake, was related back to Adam an thus connected with Lilith as we all are said to be.

Here are some images for you to examine. Are these reports related to hybrids or some mix of alien influx? I'm not sure but equally I do not discount it. The reason that I ask is that Gilgamesh, who was said to be one third god and two thirds human, had 6 as well. And he was also said to have been giant in stature.

I like to check for Cryptographic encoding in the names given by the adepts, or those with eyes that see.

Blake's Enitharmon name for Lilith is one example:
Here's a simple word occurrence counting:
E 1 naehi mort
n 2 mort = Death; especially, the death of game in hunting.
i 1 nae = Old English, ne, not, no, nay
t 1 naeh or neah = nigh, near, later, last, latest
h 1 near, nearly, about, of time - last
a 1
r 1
m 1
o 1
n 1
So it gives us naehi mort or in modern English: NE, NOT I DIE for Lilith.

I've also included another image from the Garden where the snake of the Tree is depicted with the head of a woman, which is understood to be Lilith as well.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Excellent stuff. You should perhaps give Goliath a mention, the Philistine that David conquered with his sling. Not only was he purported to be nine feet tall (in some accounts) he also had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot. Extra digits is a common theme in Giantology, in which Goliath has a legitimate place. 'There were Giants in the Earth in those days...'.

[Abondance]

Posted by Mark (Star Mariner) (here)
Excellent stuff. You should perhaps give Goliath a mention, the Philistine that David conquered with his sling. Not only was he purported to be nine feet tall (in some accounts) he also had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot. Extra digits is a common theme in Giantology, in which Goliath has a legitimate place. 'There were Giants in the Earth in those days...'.

Yes, and it's funny because some days ago I was searching for an image of the Goliath statue made by Gaudi for the Sagrada Familia in Barcelona. His foot have 6 fingers as said in Old Testament...

And Mauro Biglino have spocken about this detail in one of his video (as a mark of the nephilim race I guess) but I really don't remember what it was.

[Jim_Duyer]

Posted by Mark (Star Mariner) (here)
Excellent stuff. You should perhaps give Goliath a mention, the Philistine that David conquered with his sling. Not only was he purported to be nine feet tall (in some accounts) he also had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot. Extra digits is a common theme in Giantology, in which Goliath has a legitimate place. 'There were Giants in the Earth in those days...'.

THANKS! I now remember that - forgot to add it to the post. Yes, he was said to have had this.
One thing we should possibly consider is that David picked up his ax after the battle, so perhaps he was not so small - just small in comparison to Goliath.

[Irminsül]

There is a photo in the files of the alleged contactee Billy Meier, where a photo of a handprint with six fingers is shown. Although in the photo I count seven fingers, the caption on the page clarifies that there are six fingers.
And on the other hand, in the case I wrote about the La Aurora ranch in Uruguay; also the being who called himself Nicolás (he was 2.70 meters tall with blond hair and beard) had six fingers according to the testimony of the owner of the place, Ángel María Tonna.
Finally, I share the link to a video by Linda Moulton Howe, where there is a testimony from a soldier who says that there was an attack by a six-fingered red-haired giant.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=JuGQG17rVYI

[Inversion]

Kent Dunn said Barack has Akhenaten's DNA and that could explain the portrait of him with six fingers. As Jim Duyer wrote the former president of Mexico Vicente Fox has six toes. He worked for Coca-Cola from 1964-1979 and it's alleged their logo contains 666. His family name was Fuchs which is German and later changed to Fox which is also 666. Gemma Arterton who playing a Bond girl in Quantum of Solace in 2008 has six fingers, but I couldn't find a clear image.

The Ancient Secret of the Flower of Life Vol. 1 & 2

Akhenaten was mentioned and Thoth told him an interesting story I haven't heard before. Thoth approached Tiya & Ay and asked them to produce a child. Its purpose was to introduce the concept of monotheism to Egypt and load it as a template into the Akashic Records and keep the planet on the Christ Consciousness path. Something happened 5.5 million years ago that broke the Akashic Records. Akhenaten was 14.5 feet tall and clearly not human. During his reign three sorcerers were contracted to make a concoction similar to the Haitian zombie dust. He drank the poison and all of his life signs stopped. They pronounced him dead and put him in a sarcophagus with a magic seal. He had to wait 2,000 years for the container to rust before he could get out. After he was gone his son Tutankhamun was allowed to rule for one year then Tiya & Ay took over.

thespun

[lunaflare]

Some thoughts having just perused this thread
We base our whole counting system on "ten" which seems to correlate to our number of fingers.
And yet 12 is used more often as a way to count/classify/quantify:
12 months in a year/ 12 houses in the astrology wheel; 12 hours in the day, 12 hours in the night; the numbers on clock faces (when we still used them, that is).
12 fingers for humans seems natural.
10 digits may be a more recent modification?

[gord]

Blues guitarist Hound Dog Taylor had six fingers, though the sixth was tiny and I think not very functional.

[Abondance]

Posted by lunaflare (here)
Some thoughts having just perused this thread
We base our whole counting system on "ten" which seems to correlate to our number of fingers.
And yet 12 is used more often as a way to count/classify/quantify:
12 months in a year/ 12 houses in the astrology wheel; 12 hours in the day, 12 hours in the night; the numbers on clock faces (when we still used them, that is).
12 fingers for humans seems natural.
10 digits may be a more recent modification?

The dozen-counting system for food in particular, was based on counting the phalanges of the 4 fingers (thanks to the thumb). Even people who didn't know how to count could use this trick for everyday life. I don't think 6 fingers have ever been a generality.

[Michel Leclerc]

Thank you Jim Duyer, thank you Lunaflare, thank you all. Highly interesting.

Five and six indeed. This is tied to the chakra count and to the two alternatives for the number of Sahasrara petals (1000 as a multiple of 5, 1008 as a multiple of 6), which in itself is related to the Golden Mean, as I have hinted at in this note on my literary web pages.

Irminsül: occasionally in English, the thumb is not counted as a finger. 7 as seven fingers or as 6 fingers and a thumb maybe?

[meat suit]

Posted by Abondance (here)

Posted by lunaflare (here)
Some thoughts having just perused this thread
We base our whole counting system on "ten" which seems to correlate to our number of fingers.
And yet 12 is used more often as a way to count/classify/quantify:
12 months in a year/ 12 houses in the astrology wheel; 12 hours in the day, 12 hours in the night; the numbers on clock faces (when we still used them, that is).
12 fingers for humans seems natural.
10 digits may be a more recent modification?

The dozen-counting system for food in particular, was based on counting the phalanges of the 4 fingers (thanks to the thumb). Even people who didn't know how to count could use this trick for everyday life. I don't think 6 fingers have ever been a generality.

I learned in school that the dozen - counting system was very useful for division.
12 can be divided by 6, 4, 3, 2. So splitting a dozen eggs equally between people, its a lot more versatile than the decimal system.
10 can only be devided by 5 and 2.

[Abondance]

Posted by meat suit (here)

Posted by Abondance (here)

Posted by lunaflare (here)
Some thoughts having just perused this thread
We base our whole counting system on "ten" which seems to correlate to our number of fingers.
And yet 12 is used more often as a way to count/classify/quantify:
12 months in a year/ 12 houses in the astrology wheel; 12 hours in the day, 12 hours in the night; the numbers on clock faces (when we still used them, that is).
12 fingers for humans seems natural.
10 digits may be a more recent modification?

The dozen-counting system for food in particular, was based on counting the phalanges of the 4 fingers (thanks to the thumb). Even people who didn't know how to count could use this trick for everyday life. I don't think 6 fingers have ever been a generality.

I learned in school that the dozen - counting system was very useful for division.
12 can be divided by 6, 4, 3, 2. So splitting a dozen eggs equally between people, its a lot more versatile than the decimal system.
10 can only be devided by 5 and 2.

Even dividing the circle is easier. Cutting a pie for 10 people is always a hassle...

[Ernie Nemeth]

This is in many ways an argument about the two empirical counting systems, metric and standard.

There are many correlations between the two. Interestingly, the metric system is based on the orbit of Venus. It is why the meter was slightly smaller in England than in France, and the closer one gets to the equator the larger the meter became. This had to do with the viewing angle of Venus at higher latitudes.
Like usual I am using my memory, I might have certain aspects of this interesting correlation misrepresented.

The standard system is the human counting system. It has gradations suitable for human systems. The most notable is the foot, but even the inch is a far better span than the centimeter. No one can know how much 3657.6mm is, but everyone knows 12 feet. Anyone can estimate 12 inches, no one can estimate 30.48cm. A centimeter is too small, a meter too big.

Nowadays we get convos shouted across construction sites that go like this:
4675.45mm!
what?
4675.45!
4675.45?
Yes!

In the old days it went like this:
16 feet two and a half inches!
Got it!


The numbers we used were human, now they are incomprehensible with no way to estimate the distance in any realistic fashion.
I can estimate any distance up to 16 feet by eye to within an inch.

I have no idea what a centimeter is because it is alien to the human condition.


As an aside:
The world's use of the metric system has left the world in confusion as countries have begun using arbitrary nomenclature for their numbering systems.

It used to be the world understood the need for rigid rules surrounding the method used to speak a number, especially decimals.
In grade school we would get our knuckles smacked by the teacher's ruler if we used the word 'point' when reading a number with a decimal like '2.5'. It is not two point five - it is 2 decimal five. And it is certainly not 2,5, which reads as two comma five.

So when North Americans now read a number from the European Union we get numbers like $245,789,45 - which makes no sense. What number is that? It should read $245,789.45.

It seems the clown world has already made a mockery of the numbering systems to sew just a bit more confusion...

[Abondance]

Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
This is in many ways an argument about the two empirical counting systems, metric and standard.

There are many correlations between the two. Interestingly, the metric system is based on the orbit of Venus. It is why the meter was slightly smaller in England than in France, and the closer one gets to the equator the larger the meter became. This had to do with the viewing angle of Venus at higher latitudes.
Like usual I am using my memory, I might have certain aspects of this interesting correlation misrepresented.

The standard system is the human counting system. It has gradations suitable for human systems. The most notable is the foot, but even the inch is a far better span than the centimeter. No one can know how much 3657.6mm is, but everyone knows 12 feet. Anyone can estimate 12 inches, no one can estimate 30.48cm. A centimeter is too small, a meter too big.

Nowadays we get convos shouted across construction sites that go like this:
4675.45mm!
what?
4675.45!
4675.45?
Yes!

In the old days it went like this:
16 feet two and a half inches!
Got it!


The numbers we used were human, now they are incomprehensible with no way to estimate the distance in any realistic fashion.
I can estimate any distance up to 16 feet by eye to within an inch.

I have no idea what a centimeter is because it is alien to the human condition.

Sorry, but when you grow all your life with metric system, it's not a problem. To the contrary, when I must choose a screen size in inch (even in Europe) ( and I'm not able to say how many an inch or a feet is), I'm totally lost...




Pi, meter and royal cubit

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=HZUkrmFM8KQ

[meat suit]

Metric is actually really useful for dimensions. I grew up with it in Germany.
I now live in Britain which had to convert to metric as part of being a EU member at the time.
Habits die hard, so in construction timbers and other things are still measured in feet and inches.
Its actually useful to have that variety..

I coulndt fathom to measure precise things in inches though..
I mean 3 and 8/16 inches or whatever.. 🤣

Nobody I asked knows how many yards are in a mile🤣
You would have thought 1200... Nah something like 1430..

[Michel Leclerc]

Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)

(...)

As an aside:
The world's use of the metric system has left the world in confusion as countries have begun using arbitrary nomenclature for their numbering systems.

It used to be the world understood the need for rigid rules surrounding the method used to speak a number, especially decimals.
In grade school we would get our knuckles smacked by the teacher's ruler if we used the word 'point' when reading a number with a decimal like '2.5'. It is not two point five - it is 2 decimal five. And it is certainly not 2,5, which reads as two comma five.

So when North Americans now read a number from the European Union we get numbers like $245,789,45 - which makes no sense. What number is that? It should read $245,789.45.

It seems the clown world has already made a mockery of the numbering systems to sew just a bit more confusion...

It is more a matter of language, Ernie. In almost all European languages the rule for decimals and commas is the reverse of the rule in English. 2,001 divided by 2 is in English 1,000.50 and in Dutch, French, German etc. 1.000,50.

One could pardon the Europeans for not knowing English well enough to write in English numbers as it should be done in English. Maybe we non-English speaking Europeans could also pardon English-speakers for not knowing any other language well enough to understand that their spelling rule is not necessarily shared by the entire world..?

[Ernie Nemeth]

Posted by Michel Leclerc (here)

Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)

(...)

As an aside:
The world's use of the metric system has left the world in confusion as countries have begun using arbitrary nomenclature for their numbering systems.

It used to be the world understood the need for rigid rules surrounding the method used to speak a number, especially decimals.
In grade school we would get our knuckles smacked by the teacher's ruler if we used the word 'point' when reading a number with a decimal like '2.5'. It is not two point five - it is 2 decimal five. And it is certainly not 2,5, which reads as two comma five.

So when North Americans now read a number from the European Union we get numbers like $245,789,45 - which makes no sense. What number is that? It should read $245,789.45.

It seems the clown world has already made a mockery of the numbering systems to sew just a bit more confusion...

It is more a matter of language, Ernie. In almost all European languages the rule for decimals and commas is the reverse of the rule in English. 2,001 divided by 2 is in English 1,000.50 and in Dutch, French, German etc. 1.000,50.

One could pardon the Europeans for not knowing English well enough to write in English numbers as it should be done in English. Maybe we non-English speaking Europeans could also pardon English-speakers for not knowing any other language well enough to understand that their spelling rule is not necessarily shared by the entire world..?

Yes, pardon me.
However, I don't remember this being an issue until maybe 15 - 20 years ago. Perhaps due to the internet allowing uninterpreted material we had never seen before then. Maybe our news agencies had until then automatically converted numbers from across the ocean. Interesting.

Still, I am not convinced. I am quite sure my father did not suddenly start writing equations and dimensions in English when he emigrated to Canada. I will ask him.

edit to add:
scientific notation has only one language all must adhere to
otherwise there is chaos

[Michel Leclerc]

It is like left and right side driving Ernie.

The European notation has always been quite comfortable to me. I try not to forget how it works in English. I rarely make a mistake.

But that is because my education says that one should take good care of a text.

The world is increasingly populated by people who do not care – who do not take this care.

Allow me to stick to the “continental” system whenever I write in other languages than English. The opposite would feel like imposing pronouns on me. I prefer not.

[shaberon]

Posted by lunaflare (here)
Some thoughts having just perused this thread
We base our whole counting system on "ten" which seems to correlate to our number of fingers.
And yet 12 is used more often as a way to count/classify/quantify:
12 months in a year/ 12 houses in the astrology wheel; 12 hours in the day, 12 hours in the night; the numbers on clock faces (when we still used them, that is).
12 fingers for humans seems natural.
10 digits may be a more recent modification?

Technically called Sexagesimal, the base 60 system is attested in the oldest Sumerian cuneiform. It is very good for time and circles. For a "large" unit, one may consider a complete Venus -- Jupiter transit, 5 x 12 = 60 years, which is "large" enough to be the "biggest" thing an ordinary individual is likely to perceive, with two being unusual or unexpected. Or, as sub-divisions, twelve lunations per year is pretty easy. It's not precise, but most of these measurements are based on something easy to relate to, an approximation.

The earth being considered a circle is how the meter is defined. There was some finagling about exactly what the "size" was, but it's just a division of a terrestrial meridian. Difficult to determine how out-of-round the earth's surface is.



So far, Polydactyly seems to be considered a mutation:

Around 1 in 1,000 babies born each year has some form of polydactyly.

Polydactyly is caused by disruptions to your baby’s genes while they’re developing.


It can be passed on, it can even become dominant, although I don't know of a resultant "population".

There is an NIH paper suggesting Goliath had a Pituitary disorder, and that his polydactyl son was another mutation. This one also conveniently ties together the various Biblical citations on "giants".

However, it has also been found a pituitary disorder that often can lead to gigantism has been found to be transmissible in samples such as Charles Byrne:


The frequency of the AIP mutation (R304*) was found to be surprisingly high in Mid-Ulster, Northern Ireland.

The data suggest that all Irish patients with these particular mutations (18 families and 81 carriers) are descendants from the same ancestor, who lived in the area 2,500 years ago.



It is entirely possible that these symptoms could arise and travel together, although it doesn't quite amount to a "race", there is no known Haplogroup or major branch of humanity that features this, it is more of an anomaly.


So, we can be pretty sure that these phenomena happened/happen, but human re-tellings often diverge. Such as Lilith has only one attestation in the Old Testament, where it is a Night Bird:


Judit M. Blair wrote a thesis on the relation of the Akkadian word lilu, or its cognates, to the Hebrew word lilith in Isaiah 34:14, which is thought to be a night bird.


Which is, roughly, from the Torah:


14 The tziyyim (martens) shall also encounter iyyim (wild cats), and a sa’ir (wild goat) calls to its companion, and lilit (night creature) dwells there and finds for itself a mano’ach (place of rest).


which, even in the view of a fan of King James Bible refers to the free existence of desert creatures, not demons:


So first, the basic answer is that Lilith is not in the Bible. Lilith is (wrongly) referred to in the most popular of her Jewish mythology stories as being Adam's first wife. Eve was Adam’s first and only wife. The Bible does not start with a broken marriage.



Isaiah lived around 700 B. C. E., and the demonization of "lilith" was done by commentary around the 600s.


If we refer to other Semitic lore, Mandean Lilith:


The so called Mandaean Gnosis teaches about a figure called Lilith-Zahriel, who contrary to all other known myths about Lilith, is not a child-stealing demon but helps a pregnant woman and is concerned with the child’s well-being.

Zahriel is the daughter of Qin, sister of Ruha, and mother of Ptahil. According to Book 5 of the Right Ginza, during Hibil Ziwa's descent to the World of Darkness (alma d-hšuka) or underworld, he marries Zahreil, who then gives birth to the creator of the material universe, Ptahil.



That's completely metaphysical. As one attempt to summarize:

Lilith, daughter of the King and Queen of the Underworld, was married to the King of Light or his son. Her dowry is a crown, a magic mirror and a pearl. Their marriage unites the celestial and subterranean realms; Lilith bears a son who possesses knowledge of both realms. He later defends his mother against charges of being a child-stealing Demoness instead revealing her to be a loving, benevolent spirit who sits on the beds of laboring women in order to comfort them, not harm them.

So we have an extraordinarily different conception of the same thing, the "Owl" perhaps. Obviously, Isaiah was not afraid of it. But there appears to be a compound effort in that direction.


Likewise for the image of Gilgamesh:

Possible representation of Gilgamesh as Master of Animals, grasping a lion in his left arm and snake in his right hand, in an Assyrian palace relief (713–706 BC), from Dur-Sharrukin



Produced about 2,000 years after his existence.

Here is a copy of the Epic; Enkidu and Gilgamesh are certainly described as "tall", although I haven't noticed anything about fingers.

I would not expect that people having twelve digits are the explanation for the Sexagesimal system. If in the Americas, it can be found at a 3% rate, that is a drastic increase from baseline, suggesting what is likely to happen if the trait was considered attractive. I'm guessing that would be the reason.

[Jim_Duyer]

Posted by shaberon (here)

Posted by lunaflare (here)
Some thoughts having just perused this thread
We base our whole counting system on "ten" which seems to correlate to our number of fingers.
And yet 12 is used more often as a way to count/classify/quantify:
12 months in a year/ 12 houses in the astrology wheel; 12 hours in the day, 12 hours in the night; the numbers on clock faces (when we still used them, that is).
12 fingers for humans seems natural.
10 digits may be a more recent modification?

Technically called Sexagesimal, the base 60 system is attested in the oldest Sumerian cuneiform. It is very good for time and circles. For a "large" unit, one may consider a complete Venus -- Jupiter transit, 5 x 12 = 60 years, which is "large" enough to be the "biggest" thing an ordinary individual is likely to perceive, with two being unusual or unexpected. Or, as sub-divisions, twelve lunations per year is pretty easy. It's not precise, but most of these measurements are based on something easy to relate to, an approximation.

The earth being considered a circle is how the meter is defined. There was some finagling about exactly what the "size" was, but it's just a division of a terrestrial meridian. Difficult to determine how out-of-round the earth's surface is.



So far, Polydactyly seems to be considered a mutation:

Around 1 in 1,000 babies born each year has some form of polydactyly.

Polydactyly is caused by disruptions to your baby’s genes while they’re developing.


It can be passed on, it can even become dominant, although I don't know of a resultant "population".

There is an NIH paper suggesting Goliath had a Pituitary disorder, and that his polydactyl son was another mutation. This one also conveniently ties together the various Biblical citations on "giants".

However, it has also been found a pituitary disorder that often can lead to gigantism has been found to be transmissible in samples such as Charles Byrne:


The frequency of the AIP mutation (R304*) was found to be surprisingly high in Mid-Ulster, Northern Ireland.

The data suggest that all Irish patients with these particular mutations (18 families and 81 carriers) are descendants from the same ancestor, who lived in the area 2,500 years ago.



It is entirely possible that these symptoms could arise and travel together, although it doesn't quite amount to a "race", there is no known Haplogroup or major branch of humanity that features this, it is more of an anomaly.


So, we can be pretty sure that these phenomena happened/happen, but human re-tellings often diverge. Such as Lilith has only one attestation in the Old Testament, where it is a Night Bird:


Judit M. Blair wrote a thesis on the relation of the Akkadian word lilu, or its cognates, to the Hebrew word lilith in Isaiah 34:14, which is thought to be a night bird.


Which is, roughly, from the Torah:


14 The tziyyim (martens) shall also encounter iyyim (wild cats), and a sa’ir (wild goat) calls to its companion, and lilit (night creature) dwells there and finds for itself a mano’ach (place of rest).


which, even in the view of a fan of King James Bible refers to the free existence of desert creatures, not demons:


So first, the basic answer is that Lilith is not in the Bible. Lilith is (wrongly) referred to in the most popular of her Jewish mythology stories as being Adam's first wife. Eve was Adam’s first and only wife. The Bible does not start with a broken marriage.



Isaiah lived around 700 B. C. E., and the demonization of "lilith" was done by commentary around the 600s.


If we refer to other Semitic lore, Mandean Lilith:


The so called Mandaean Gnosis teaches about a figure called Lilith-Zahriel, who contrary to all other known myths about Lilith, is not a child-stealing demon but helps a pregnant woman and is concerned with the child’s well-being.

Zahriel is the daughter of Qin, sister of Ruha, and mother of Ptahil. According to Book 5 of the Right Ginza, during Hibil Ziwa's descent to the World of Darkness (alma d-hšuka) or underworld, he marries Zahreil, who then gives birth to the creator of the material universe, Ptahil.



That's completely metaphysical. As one attempt to summarize:

Lilith, daughter of the King and Queen of the Underworld, was married to the King of Light or his son. Her dowry is a crown, a magic mirror and a pearl. Their marriage unites the celestial and subterranean realms; Lilith bears a son who possesses knowledge of both realms. He later defends his mother against charges of being a child-stealing Demoness instead revealing her to be a loving, benevolent spirit who sits on the beds of laboring women in order to comfort them, not harm them.

So we have an extraordinarily different conception of the same thing, the "Owl" perhaps. Obviously, Isaiah was not afraid of it. But there appears to be a compound effort in that direction.


Likewise for the image of Gilgamesh:

Possible representation of Gilgamesh as Master of Animals, grasping a lion in his left arm and snake in his right hand, in an Assyrian palace relief (713–706 BC), from Dur-Sharrukin



Produced about 2,000 years after his existence.

Here is a copy of the Epic; Enkidu and Gilgamesh are certainly described as "tall", although I haven't noticed anything about fingers.

I would not expect that people having twelve digits are the explanation for the Sexagesimal system. If in the Americas, it can be found at a 3% rate, that is a drastic increase from baseline, suggesting what is likely to happen if the trait was considered attractive. I'm guessing that would be the reason.

Excellent contribution. I might add that our system of longitude and latitude, or "degrees" with minutes and seconds of 60 also comes form the Sumerians.

Only one part I disagree with: So, we can be pretty sure that these phenomena happened/happen, but human re-tellings often diverge. Such as Lilith has only one attestation in the Old Testament, where it is a Night Bird:

In addition to the mention in Isaiah, Lilith is specifically listed by name LTLT, three times in Daniel 7 alone, and in other sections as well. Along with the designation, she is linked in the following words with "demons" and "owls".
Owls and Lions were, along with bats, some of her iconography - since she was said to be a night demon. So she most certainly is clearly mentioned in the OT. I have learned to read Aramaic in the past 6 months, and re-translated much of the Book of Daniel.

That's what I was pointing out about William Blake - he, like several others of that and earlier time periods, held the knowledge that they gained from re-translating a great many books and tablets of the ancients, and finding that they did not agree with what the traditional scholars told us, they kept it secret and shared it only among the adepts. Much of what Thrice Great said, in his earliest incantations prior to Egypt, is also chock full of information, and I am quite sure that they knew of this, as I now do. And that's also why his "Hecate" is not, but rather an image of Lilith and Adam and Eve in the Garden, when knowledge was provided to them and then they were all banished. Lilith did not take her banishment easily - she terrorized the Hebrews for millennia, and she will have her final revenge coming up shortly - less than five years now.