Should Christians support Israeli military action?

[Flash]

Posted by Rizotto (here)
I haven't yet watched the documentary named "Praying for Armageddon". (See trailer below.) Have any of you seen it yet? Your thoughts?
It's about 'christian zionists' in America contributing to Israel's conflicts.

Quite frankly, I'm concerned (if not scared!) about these 'christian zionists' locally. Their lust for Israel's revenge is beyond the pale. They're obsessed with 'end times' prophesies.
I have to deal with these folks in everyday life, so I wonder if there's a way to defuse this situation...

Praying for Armageddon - Trailer (Norske undertekster)

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=FNZLz8HlwVk

Oh my God, this video is absolutely terrible. And they call themselves Christians while only talking/thinking about violence!!!
Not any better than fundamentalist warlike Muslims or some very orthodox Jewish sects. Creating fear, violence, as far as I am concerned, retard human beings, literally, not able to think by themselves let alone opening their heart.

I am so happy that I am living up north !!!

[Kryztian]

Posted by Flash (here)

Oh my God, this video is absolutely terrible. And they call themselves Christians while only talking/thinking about violence!!!
Not any better than fundamentalist warlike Muslims or some very orthodox Jewish sects. Creating fear, violence, as far as I am concerned, retard human beings, literally, not able to think by themselves let alone opening their heart.

I am so happy that I am living up north !!!

I bet you have them in Canada too. Maybe not in the same numbers, but there is always crazy spilling over through your border from the south!

[Rizotto]

Regrettably, we do have many of these 'christian zionists' in Canada, and they're a sizeable cult. Even in northern Canada where I live. Apparently, their origin is from the USA evanlegical movement, and they've pushed hard to spread their ideology. Somehow, Trump is part of it, as you can see from the above trailer. Yes, even in Canada this cult has already 'voted' for Trump.

By the way, I've tried telling them that many Palestinians are christians. Their response? "They're just check-point christians." (Referring to Israel's check-points where all Palestinians have to be 'inspected'). In other words, they completely dismissed these Palestinians christians as fakes, an obvious attempt to absolve themselves of their complicity in Israel's crimes.

They even gloat on social media about Lebanese deaths and injuries from the criminal booby-trap pagers that Isreal indiscriminately planted in Lebanon. They will try and censor all and any mention of Israel's misdeeds, by using accusations of 'anti-semitism', as well as the weirdest interpretations of biblical prophecies, including made-up stuff.
It never ends.

This level of irrational zeal for Israel, no matter what abomination they commit, is incredibly creepy, especially since it predominantly shapes USA's middle east policy. War criminal Mike Pompeo is one of them. I recall seeing a video of Mike Pompeo in 2018 where he addressed an assembly of this cult, enthusiastically saying that 'Damascus is about to fall as we're all looking forward to'. (Referring to the CIA-led terror attacks on Syria by IS, and some end times prophesy from Revelations.) Obviously deeply brainwashed by zionist-implanted ideology.

It's surprising that the hold of 'christian zionists' have on world geopolitics isn't getting more discussed. It should be getting much more exposure by independent media, if we ever want to stop the enslavement of the west.

[Rizotto]

One more thing, these 'christian zionists' absolutely insist that Isreal has all land rights over Gaza and the West Bank, as per God's decree who gave them that land. The Palestinians are the usurpers, as they came from Jordan, Syria and elsewhere. Not my words, that's just what they're saying. To think they have Trump's support for all this...

[shaberon]

Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
If so, then all wars, lands, history that uses these religions as excuses for atrocities is unsupportable.

Here you referred to the category "Abrahamic".

On this view, I think we might agree on something. I would probably extend it to *any* doctrine, religion, philosophy, of supremacism, that demonizes "other", and encourages atrocity.

A more important example of that is probably Aristotle, This happens to be the backbone of most European religion, and secular philosophy, even though he didn't pay attention to Abraham.

But then yes, of course, "Abrahamic" contains Evangelism as well as Rabbinical commentary. They claim some sort of relationship. Both are inventions, not apostolic disseminations.


The American Evangelist is a particularly obnoxious pest. First of all, it is quite easy to show they have nothing to do with the religion of Jerusalem. I don't understand why people who are not members believe they can freely apply the term "Christian" to themselves. They're something else. We can show them the English Bible was invented from the late 1500s, along with the delirium about Europeans being the Lost Tribes. The English Bible must contain some inaccuracies, because even Catholicism cannot agree with Zionism. The actual Christian view is that the Jews are committing the worst sin possible, rejecting the Savior.

If they are showing up in Canada, do they look like the Nice Car Club?

Any type of direct charity being done?

I really have no idea how to get anyone like that to actually listen. There's this impassable chasm that starts with the person across the street. It's got to be forceably restrained, because we will not be able to soften the attitude any time soon. Certainly this thread did not result in much of a "yes" response that was interested in promoting itself. The noise only happens in pre-approved areas.

[Rizotto]

Quoting Shaberon above: "I really have no idea how to get anyone like that to actually listen."

I was just thinking that this 'christian zionists' situation is very much like the covidian cult, where it was totally pointless to try to have a fact based discussion with covidians, who were clinging to their face masks and covid jabs schedule with a death grip. Most of us just gave up trying, and kept our distances. The problem in both cases is that these masses of compliant hypnotized people is making it much easier for the cabal to implement its agenda.

[I am B]

I do not consider myself a Christian. I am not one. I accept (and even occasionally support it indirectly) as the religion common to my country (Spain) but don't practice it myself.

I believe there are two ways of looking at this "issue".

On the moral side, both Israel's genocidal practices, and Palestinians (&Co.) immoral ways and customs, makes me wish the Mediterranean had made its way east a few thousand kilometers.

But, on the geopolitical side, and seeing the problems we already have with Islamic immigration in Europe, makes me think that if it wasn't because of the "buffer" Israel creates in the border between the arab (mostly Islamic) world and the west, we would have the same, or at least a similar, situation somewhere else. Greece, Turkey, Italy or even Spain.

[Bruce G Charlton]

I would say that being a Christian (as I am), or not, has No direct relationship to geopolitical questions such as war; partly because people define these wars in such different ways. Of course some Christian Churches (or other groupings) have an official view of these wars, and those who regard being-a-Christian as obeying whatever their church tells them, will support whatever side they are told to support. But I am assuming that being a Christian is in spiritual-reality more than obedience to a particular church.

For instance, I think that many of those who have unconditional support of Ukraine and/or Israel do so because they frame the issue as starting on a particular date, with a particular event - which they believe they understand.

e.g. With Ukr they believe it began on 24 February 2022 with Russia invading Ukraine in order to begin European (world?) conquest. Nothing before that date has any moral relevance to such people; and they believe they know that Rus is an aggressive nation led by an evil totalitarian dictator.

e.g. With Isr they believe it began on 7 October 2023 with Hamas unilaterally (i.e. without any Isr collusion at all) invading Israel in order to kill as many as possible innocent people, and take hostages. These are the only relevant facts.

I happen to believe these Ukr and Isr framings both contain false assumptions, including incorrect framing of motivations; but if somebody does have these assumptions as to what happened and why - then they will frame what happened afterwards such that this seems to be consistent with their initial assumptions. New facts or other information, never disproves assumptions because the meanings or truth of "facts" are interpreted to fit the assumptions.

But being a Christian is (in essence, IMO) mainly about desiring eternal resurrected life in Heaven after biological-death, by following Jesus Christ. This perspective frames all of this mortal life, but not entailed at a level of detail that leads to a single moral view about any particular issues that transcends the assumptions which frame that issue.

What seems more important are the kind of assumptions listed above. I don't know how these can be changed by any factual or logical procedure, because so much depends on inferences about eth motivations of people or groups. We cannot know this directly by any publicly verifiable procedure, because we don't have direct and public access to the minds of others.

[Rizotto]

Posted by Bruce G Charlton (here)
I would say that being a Christian (as I am), or not, has No direct relationship to geopolitical questions such as war; partly because people define these wars in such different ways. Of course some Christian Churches (or other groupings) have an official view of these wars, and those who regard being-a-Christian as obeying whatever their church tells them, will support whatever side they are told to support. But I am assuming that being a Christian is in spiritual-reality more than obedience to a particular church.

For instance, I think that many of those who have unconditional support of Ukraine and/or Israel do so because they frame the issue as starting on a particular date, with a particular event - which they believe they understand.

e.g. With Ukr they believe it began on 24 February 2022 with Russia invading Ukraine in order to begin European (world?) conquest. Nothing before that date has any moral relevance to such people; and they believe they know that Rus is an aggressive nation led by an evil totalitarian dictator.

e.g. With Isr they believe it began on 7 October 2023 with Hamas unilaterally (i.e. without any Isr collusion at all) invading Israel in order to kill as many as possible innocent people, and take hostages. These are the only relevant facts.

I happen to believe these Ukr and Isr framings both contain false assumptions, including incorrect framing of motivations; but if somebody does have these assumptions as to what happened and why - then they will frame what happened afterwards such that this seems to be consistent with their initial assumptions. New facts or other information, never disproves assumptions because the meanings or truth of "facts" are interpreted to fit the assumptions.

But being a Christian is (in essence, IMO) mainly about desiring eternal resurrected life in Heaven after biological-death, by following Jesus Christ. This perspective frames all of this mortal life, but not entailed at a level of detail that leads to a single moral view about any particular issues that transcends the assumptions which frame that issue.

What seems more important are the kind of assumptions listed above. I don't know how these can be changed by any factual or logical procedure, because so much depends on inferences about eth motivations of people or groups. We cannot know this directly by any publicly verifiable procedure, because we don't have direct and public access to the minds of others.

Well said! Personally, my take about the essence of the christian message is, 'treat others as you would like to be treated'. That sounds simple, but in real life it's complicated, i.e. the balance between taking care of one's needs and what is beneficial to the collective. Not necessarily contradictory, it's a matter of balance, and it takes work to figure it out.
Edited to add: By 'work' I mean it takes a lot of honest soul-searching.

[Rizotto]

In response to post #107 above: And what exactly caused muslims to flee their countries?

The reality is that zionist Israel itself instigated conflicts since 1948 in Palestine and surrounding countries, leading to mass displacement of Arabs, most of them of Muslim faith, but also many Christian Arabs.

For example, the Islamic State terror group was a creation of the CIA and Mossad, (in 2012 ?) to which they provided support, to destabilize Syria. Just another one of the CIA’s regime change operations. Russia is the one who rescued Syria after Bashar Al Assad asked for their help at the 11th hour.

But even that hasn’t stopped Israel from attacking Syria and Lebanon on many occasions for the past several years, i.e. since 2018, and even Iran. All part of zionist Israel’s plan for Greater Israel’, by using USA’s war machine. In fact, Israel depends completely on USA’s war machine. Which is why they instigate false flag operations like the 1967 attack on the USS Liberty, and 9/11.

Hence, the manipulation of American ‘christian zionists’ to support Israel, not matter how criminal their operations. This is so evil, there's no other word for it. These ‘christian zionists’ aren’t following the Christian faith. Their ambition is really about winning a quick ticket to heaven, aka 'the rapture’, and they believe that in order to achieve this they must support whatever Israel does. They told me so themselves.

General Wesley Clark - "We're Going to Take Out 7 Countries in 5 Years"

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=jWxKn-1S8ts

[rgray222]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
I received a well-written and most intelligent message yesterday from a good friend, whom I very much respect, explaining that they felt obliged to support Israel in their current military campaign, come what may, because they were a Christian.

I won't offer my own personal views on this yet, but I did feel it was a very legitimate topic of discussion.

Besides all the Avalon members here who maintain a truly spiritual worldview, as best as they can every day, I'm aware that we have many members who count themselves as good Christians. Do please share what you may feel about this, whatever your spiritual outlook may be.

I think most people would think I am completely off base when I say that Islam and Judaism have nothing to do with the current conflict in the Middle East. Most of the world believes religion is the main factor in the conflict. The ominous history of both religions dictates never-ending hate with the constant peril of war all waged under the counterfeit claim of religion. Both sides shove their religious banners in the sand tack their political emblems on their chests and set about killing each other. This is not religion, hate is not religion, killing each other is not religious. It is a fictional narrative (religion) that somehow makes those who engage in senseless killing (both sides) and those observing from a distance feel a bit better about the insanity and lunacy of war.

Mankind better start getting its act together or it will surely be in peril in another world war. Pretending that religion is at the heart of bloodshed when in fact it is hate is the driving force of this apocalyptic behavior. Religion went out the window ions ago and hate has firmly entrenched itself as the main motivator for killing each other.

No truly religious or thinking human should support this (or any other) never-ending war.

[Kryztian]

Posted by rgray222 (here)

I think most people would think I am completely off base when I say that Islam and Judaism have nothing to do with the current conflict in the Middle East.

I would say you are 100% on target.

The way Zionist politicians and the CIA influenced media and others tell it: There is a war between Israelis and Arabs. That may that automatically translated into the minds of most Americans as: There is a war between Jews and Moslems. The way it should really be framed is: There is a war between Zionists and Palestinians.

• The war started in the 1930s, before there were "Israelis", that is, citizens of nation that did not yet exist. Israel was created in 1948. Meanwhile "Palestine" had existed for centuries, even though it had been occupied by Ottoman Turks and then the British. It was clearly "Zionists" and not "Israelis" who were fighting the war for the first decade and a half.
  
  
• Not all Israelis are fighting this war. There are many Christians and Moslems who are citizens of Israel, and yet they are not fighting. There are many Israeli Hasidim (a Jewish sect) who are against Zionism and also will not fight. And there are other Israeli Jews who for reasons of conscience do not support the war.
  
  
• A large sector of the Israeli population are Arabs, so this dichotomy of "Arabs vs. Israelis" simply does not work. The majority of these Arabs are Moslem, but about a quarter of them are Christian and a few are even Jews.
  
  
• The idea here is to pretend that there never were a Palestinian people, which is an outright lie.
  
  
• The term Zionists refers not just to people who live in Israel and are claiming it as there land, but individuals people in other parts of the world who are waging the battle by funding the arms and corrupting other countries. For example, Joe Biden has called himself a Zionist and his administration has worked hard to finance Israel's genocide of Palestinians. Back in the 1930's, Meyer Lansky and other members of the "Super-Mob" worked to finance Zionist settlers with weapons, so they could terrorize and murder Palestinians and drive them off the land they were working to steal.
  
  

Another way to think about the conflict is that this is a war between the people who have been living in the area now defined as Israel and/or Palestine for many generations and those people who have come into the area in less than a century and are trying to evict the centuries old occupants. If you go back 3 generations or 10 or 20 generations and look at the ancestors of the people you have now fighting, those fighting for the Zionist state had their ancestors living far away from this land and mostly on other continents, and the people fighting for Palestine had most of their ancestors living in that area.

[shaberon]

Posted by Bruce G Charlton (here)
But being a Christian is (in essence, IMO) mainly about desiring eternal resurrected life in Heaven after biological-death, by following Jesus Christ.

Would you say this has a corresponding state while living?


I will also respond in a way that I've done before. That is, I will attempt to present the view of Orthodoxy, which, in the Byzantine Empire, would have been influential on Palestine until the Fourth Crusade. This is when--differences between "churches" notwithstanding--Catholic Europe attacks the Orthodox Byzantines. This is why the Lebanese Maronites are actually Catholics who speak Arabic. A fairly serious hammering happened, and this is where most Russians will trace their "problems" with the west.

The mission of Orthodoxy is to create Heaven on Earth. It doesn't really come with instructions. It is not "a" government--such as the Byzantine Empire--and it is not "a form" of government--such as that kind of empire. So it would be doctrinally impotent to tell modern Turkey, hey, that's where we once ruled, and, you know, you've got to go back to wherever. It can't do anything like that, or forcibly convert a ruler, or suppress non-followers. It can only act on its own feet with the same equal rights and freedoms as anyone else.

It can do its best to be the most outstanding guide.

It lacks a self-definition of perfection or any kind of guarantee that because they are alive, that Heaven on Earth is really happening. Obviously it takes constant day-to-day evaluation. It is non-denominational, in that whatever benefits the Orthodox have, must be true for their fellow citizens.

I am not a member, but I consider them brothers and sisters because I have personally experienced their fellowship and their rite. It's considerably more serious than anything I have seen elsewhere. It validates a "good people" ticket for them as a demographic, in almost the same way we object to "labeling", this label actually works. That is why I represent and encourage it. As we can see, it doesn't make you a pacifist. It certainly can't support Israel, to say the least.

[shaberon]

Posted by I am B (here)
But, on the geopolitical side, and seeing the problems we already have with Islamic immigration in Europe, makes me think that if it wasn't because of the "buffer" Israel creates in the border between the arab (mostly Islamic) world and the west, we would have the same, or at least a similar, situation somewhere else. Greece, Turkey, Italy or even Spain.

This has several various ways of happening. One has been called "Harvest of Empire", such as why there are many Algerians in France. Former colony = the connection and pathway for the colonized to emigrate.

A smaller way is some obscure political favor, such as why Norwegian fish canneries are staffed by Tunisians.

Waves of refugees being a third way.


This one can be drastic, such as the Ukrainians and the PM of Denmark:

“She is shooting herself in the foot,” Lazare said of Frederiksen’s support for the Ukraine proxy war. “She is supporting a war which generates refugees who, when they finally make their way to Denmark, are angering growing numbers of citizens who are afraid of what the influx means and fueling the rise of the ultra-right. This is amazingly foolish on her part, but yet she is doing it. She's like an automaton who's marching off the edge of a cliff.”

As of now, there is a great chance of receiving waves of Israeli refugees. I am not sure whose way they may have impeded previously. Does this mean we will see fights between Israelis and Tunisians in Norway? It sounds easy.

Hungary seems to be applying an answer--no, you can't come in. We will accept only a tiny, controlled amount of immigration. Apparently this is controversial.

[Bruce G Charlton]

@Shaberon - I know a bit about Eastern Orthodoxy, and some years ago started the process of joining the church. But I nowadays regard all mainstream/ major Western Christian churches as on the wrong side of the spiritual war - as was revealed in 2020, when they willingly/ eagerly closed themselves and ceased all sacraments (including funerals).

The only principled way to be a Christian now is from one's own inner discernment and the guidance of the Holy Ghost - churches are secondary.

I speak as a Westerner , but this may not, probably does not, apply to Russia and some other Orthodox nations - their peoples may have a different destiny from us in the West - one based on a resurgent Orthodoxy.

As for Heaven on earth - I agree we can experience this partly or in the short term, and this knowing Heaven (and wanting it) enables us to make the eternal choice of Heaven, after death.

[161803398]

I have watched what is going on in Palestine almost every day for an entire year. There is no human being who could support that unless they are uninformed or delusional. I understand the Zionists are attempting to claim Jews are a nationality rather than a religion (because they often aren't religious). I think to understand Judaism, you might start here with this man:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=QKRSiqBWqNM

Website is: https://www.committinghighreason.com/

[shaberon]

Posted by Bruce G Charlton (here)
The only principled way to be a Christian now is from one's own inner discernment and the guidance of the Holy Ghost - churches are secondary.

I speak as a Westerner , but this may not, probably does not, apply to Russia and some other Orthodox nations - their peoples may have a different destiny from us in the West - one based on a resurgent Orthodoxy.

That enters my workspace.

The main issues in the early congregations were not Christology, it was Pneumatology.

This is really the fundamental split:

Orthodoxy and i. e. prior Christianity says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father.

Rome revised this and says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son. This is Papal decree, not any kind of discussion with the greater congregation.

Well, the thing is, that Orthodox training, Hesychasm, is already entirely devoted to Spirit, It is an experience they attempt to have while living.

The religious and spiritual centre of the Eastern Orthodox Church for nearly one thousand years:

Hagia Sophia

...the feminine personification of divine wisdom as Holy Wisdom (Ἁγία Σοφία; Hagía Sophía)...


raises the issue of Jesus having wisdom, as one meaning, and that the Holy Spirit is female, possibly Theotokos, is somewhat of a Russian mystical trend, rather than "doctrine", also picked up by the English Philadelphians. Sophia is not a "Greek goddess" and is equivalently present in Gnosticism in a similar way. Or, Sofia, Bulgaria, 2009:






Roughly put, at the apex of Hesychasm:


The uncreated light that the hesychast experiences is identified with the Holy Spirit. Experiences of the uncreated light are allied to the 'acquisition of the Holy Spirit'...


When they do this, officially, on paper, Holy Spirit is "He"; my personal response is that she is Sophia. Because I am not quite in agreement with some of the Orthodox theology, I can't pretend to join. However, if they have learned to practice the above, I would respect that.

In further response, I would say, well, it can only be the same Spirit that is possibly achieved in other ways. The point is they have this teaching that leads to a profound transformation of experience. And it is not known in the west.

It's just a little bit different from the way I do it. I can understand this as a spiritual effort, which is supposed to be in league with a harmonious social order. It is not inconceivable that, if I had been born in an Orthodox country, I might simply be doing that. My system is technically incompatible, while remaining socially harmonious. On a broad, superficial level, I can't tell any difference. I think all we are looking for is equal rights to do slightly technically different ways to attain the Spirit.

Because Hesychasm is talking about a very passive meditation, that is how I understand it, not "spirit" slapped onto any charismatic endeavor of one's choosing. Nor belief in the efficacy of prayer based just on some words.

[Mike Gorman]

Really the central teaching of Jesus Christ is to embrace love, to treat one another as we would like to be treated, the reward in Heaven is of course an incentive but we should not be misled by this: the true emphasis is about manifesting the nature of God in human life, not seeking a free pass into the pearly gates. Israel is entitled to defend its people. but this does not give them the automatic right to kill civilians en masse in the process: surely this is a direct contradiction of their own moral justification? I think it is correct that religion is obscuring the crucial issues in play here: we are witnessing mass slaughter and a huge displacement of an entire community in the name of a state that was installed after the WWII disaster, there are obviously too many other elements at work, to offer a concise account It is clear that chaos, and violence is escalating throughout this region, it is escalating internationally. If we are speaking about Christianity, specifically, then we should be supporting the cause of Peace above all other concerns - call me naive if you like.

[161803398]

Israelism Screening and Discussion with Gabor Maté, Naomi Klein, and Simone Zimmerman at Simon Fraser University

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=TphWlTQFkWE

[161803398]

Naomi Klein on false idols starts at 3.20

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=U75KcMUjMyI