Posted by shaberon
(here)
Posted by Michel Leclerc
(here)
...I have great trouble just understanding you because in my opinion you mix up various strands of reasoning, letting out logical bridges etc. Please try and write as clearly as you can so that even a person with moderate intelligence as I am can follow you. Thank you.
It seems to me that we are talking two entirely different languages.
You claim not to be well-versed in biology but you adduce reasonings on the basis of haplogroups (which I am not familiar with at all). So what is the weight of your argument?
Two of the darkest black friends I have had were Italian.
My argument is a set of physical markers on what you are calling "Nostratic", or, part of it.
Objectivity appears to contradict many if not most traditions and scriptures. In turn, many or most of those may have been "doctored" for various reasons.
Without going into detail about the haplogroups -- which in this case we are looking at maternal lineages -- the markers tell us a few things about Ancient North Asia:
Iranians and Indians last shared a common ancestor in the Ice Age, 10,000 B. C, E., perhaps longer, the two separated. This means from a European source that was also the first Americans.
The wave going to India likely includes "Dravidian" which also inhabits the area now called Pakistan. At some point, this line proceeds into Yemen and Ethiopia. We don't know exactly when, because only living people have been studied, not remains dated to any considerable antiquity. Are these the "Sabians"? Were they before or after? I don't think we can specifically answer that, yet, but it is pointing to the origin of "Arab" and/or "Semitic" as well as "Sabian". We can suggest we are talking about large settlements because we are following the movement of women, whereas, in those times, it of course would be a male who might venture out on his own and start a family in some new place.
Finally, getting into the thick of "Nostratic" and/or "Indo-European", we find a select stream of people moving out of the "Corded Ware" part of Europe (roughly Poland) and establishing a site called Arkaim or Sintashta in Russia. In actuality it was more like Ural River Civilization, having over 20 sites that each housed 200-700 people, where
every house had a copper crucible. From around 2,200 - 1,700 B. C. E., they bred horses, invented the spoked wheel, and the war chariot. You will find the "stuff" spread everywhere, but where are the people? India.
There are no Sintashtans in Europe.
It is to them, that many of the academics want to credit Indo-European and/or Sanskrit. I don't know. What we have is a time frame for certain artifacts, and the continuation of their genetics in India. You will find the "stuff" appears immediately in the middle east with the Mitanni at the beginning of the Iron Age. Right there you get the masters of chariot warfare, the Sintashtans and Mitanni. High tech.
The best papers on genetic studies have heavily-annotated references into the other physical sciences, but, to an extent, they make linguistic references as well, which means they immediately draw from Witzel and Parpola. Mr. Parpola's scheme is that the Sintashtans simply went to Syria, and then picked up again and went to India, introducing Sanskrit. This is refuted on the basis of showing the much older trade route, and the lack of Sintashtan genetics elsewhere.
Neither one of them wants an Indian or an Arab to be credited with a brain, do they? "It came from the Aryan Europeans" -- or whatever they have been going for. Well, yes, the oldest Haplogroup U samples are European, around Romania at about 45,000 years of age. But we are not talking about very many people, and impossible to say much more about it. Sintashta was perhaps the most industrious place known to man.
I am not sure how much it regulates appearance or "body types", the haplogroup is just telling who your mother is. This particular one carries the riddles of Dravidian and Sanskrit, and, possibly, Semitic and Arabic. To be specific, the Khalas people of Pakistan are so purely Sintashtan that they are the equivalent of their own continent, and, they currently speak the most rudimentary Sanskrit; whereas the Sanskrit we know is mixed with Dravidian. Compare "chowmas" to "catur masa", which is easily recognizable in Latin languages. If you bear this reasoning out, it means the people who once occupied all South Citral could not have been there very long, because they are Sintashtan, moreover, what this means is what those "Russians" have cleverly done is to place themselves at the pass to the Lapis Lazuli mines that have been running everything since it started, until driven back by Ghaznids in the 1100s.
So the Pamir Highway was colossal, and, informative to the background of early Israel. But this kind of thing is not evident in stories about Noah and so on.
In that same order of things. What many “biologists” and “archeologists” (and historical linguists!) seem to forget is what on other PA posting threads has been explained so well: the degree to which our history has been thoroughly shaken by natural catastrophes. The explosion of Thira in the second part of the 2nd millennium ended the probably Semitic or Caucasian/Kartvelian first Minoan civilisation on Creta and replaced it with a Greek civilisation. It may have caused the demise of other Caucasian civilisations as well, replacing them with Indo-European and Semitic linguistic cultures.
Another type of thing that can be reasonably approximately dated like a volcano is a supernova. There aren't really any verifiable expressions of novae until about the year 1,000. Although there were several within the time frame from cuneiform tablets.
Is there any kind of period-appropriate remark that mentions Thera?
It definitely was important; does it have any human story?
Maybe it did, and you only say "the Minoans got blown to smithereens" for two hundred years and then you kind of put it down.
They were connected to maritime trade, in multiple directions I believe, so they would have been missed.
These probably were not important due to not happening:
The disruption of Indo-European civilisation was probably caused by the Black Sea catastrophe, the one of Nostratic by the Greenland catastrophe. Irrespective of haplogroups, genetics, material cultures (which are increasingly recognised as chaotic, complex etc.). As I explained elsewhere, Greek, Aramaic, later Latin became lingua francas and then the vehicles of civilisation, whatever the genetics, haplogroups or skin colour.
Disruptions of what civilizations when?
The second has a human story, from a figment of
Ignatius Donnelly.
Those hypotheses have too much against them to be desirable as explanations.
It is when the yardstick of historical linguistics is put to it that it can be shown that “Ancient Hebrew” and “Phoenician” and “Canaanite” are virtually indistinguishable – and that the memes of a "Holy Land” and a “chosen people” are “history fiction”.
Might this be similar to the thousands of texts from
Ugarit which existed ca. 6,000 - 1,190 B. C. E.?
By the Late Bronze age Ugarit had a thriving dual-scribal system. Primarily it used the East Semitic Akkadian language which acted as the lingua franca throughout the region for diplomacy, business, and administrative purposes. In parallel, there was scribal activity in the local Northwest Semitic Ugaritic language.
The impression I get is that everything was "fine" on an intellectual basis, that is to say, most pagan deities were understood as local variations of the same thing. It lacked contentiousness. No one would care if the Phoenicians and Egyptians had different names for the Sea God. Violence happened for more mundane reasons. It is not known what happened to Ugarit, but is speculated to have been destroyed by the "Sea Peoiple" who attacked Egypt.
I'm not trying to suggest these were always completely peaceful times. Just that the appearance of "Yhwh" to rebuke "Baal" is radically rebellious to the entire fabric on a mental basis.
The horror of the “let’s butcher the Amalekites” clearly proves this “ex absurdo”.
This being based from a post-Captivity redaction. It has nothing to do with hymns from the temple of Jerusalem. It does not bear out to be historically meaningful, like Exodus. The closest thing to that which can be found is that the people were already in place.
My agnosticism has little effect on the fray, unfortunately.
The map I posted is notably missing Eilat. That of course would have been the port for King Solomon, who likes the Queen of Sabians. And then it has short overland links to Gaza and Tyre. There's a heightened fusion of east and west. I like this part. I think it is pretty impressive the scale of things we can find going in to this era. Of the subsequent Judea, I don't know anything special to say about it on the spur of the moment.
What is funny is the wrong question gets asked...Freemasonic ritual has nothing to do with King Solomon. Masonry, of course, does. It's not a ritual, it's a spiritual allegory, building the Temple of Solomon. It's not Jewish or Christian, it's historical. And it's not...looking much like itself these days, considering what seemed to be intact at the time. Now you can easily identify the real temple as moral fiber made of wisdom through pain. That will easily prove that any Third Temple built by man's hands is fake.
Re: Israel vs Palestine/Lebanon/Iran/Yemen/Syria: a New Middle East War
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: yup, another one for our dictionary, and most apposite 
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