Who here has spent time in China?

[Bill Ryan]

I've spent time in Russia, India, Nepal, Thailand, the UAE, and a lot of time in Africa — but I've never visited China.

Who reading this has been there?
What was your experience?

[Rawhide68]

Sorry Bill I havn't

I've heard by my older bro saying he's visited China once in work business thingy.

Didn't China host the Olympic games a decade or so ago or is that another time effect distortion?

Is Project Avalon Forum available to people in China, I guess not?




Is there a demographic breakdown of the Avalon members distrubution over the different nations on this globe?

Just for fun

or any other statistics about this realm in cyberspace, some facts like
- how long has it been operating
- how many threads been generated
- how many words read from members by members in total over the years , it must be billions or even trillions!

[ClearWater]

Have been a couple of times for business trips. The people were without exception very kind and generous. My fondest memory of my time there was walking the streets of Shanghai for hours with colleagues, getting completely lost, and then struggling to find anyone that could (or would) speak English and point us in the right direction. At one point ended up in a cab that drove us around in circles for about 20 minutes because the driver had no clue where we wanted him to take us, lol. But he seemed to be trying to help. He made multiple phone calls, seemingly trying to find someone that could translate. And also stopped to ask bystanders for help with communicating a couple of times. So on a personal level I found the people of China to be fantastic.

Perhaps the most striking difference for me was the cleanliness and beauty of the larger cities, which is far different than I'm accustomed to seeing in the US. Not a trace of litter/garbage to be seen on or near the streets, and the manicuring of the bushes in the medians between streets was like something you'd see at a botanical garden.

[Strat]

Posted by ClearWater (here)
Perhaps the most striking difference for me was the cleanliness and beauty of the larger cities, which is far different than I'm accustomed to seeing in the US. Not a trace of litter/garbage to be seen on or near the streets, and the manicuring of the bushes in the medians between streets was like something you'd see at a botanical garden.

When did you go? Friend of mine said the polar opposite when I mentioned to him I wanted to visit. He went probably ~20 years ago so maybe things changed?

EDIT: I should mention that it's only fair to point out that conditions will be different depending on where you are in the country. And China is a massive country. I'm sure some areas are better than others, just like anywhere else.

[Dick]

My brother lived there for 10 years, and is also on this forum, but doesn’t visit it often, and has a Chinese wife.
I will ask him to look at this thread and maybe he can give his view on china

[ClearWater]

Posted by Strat (here)

Posted by ClearWater (here)
Perhaps the most striking difference for me was the cleanliness and beauty of the larger cities, which is far different than I'm accustomed to seeing in the US. Not a trace of litter/garbage to be seen on or near the streets, and the manicuring of the bushes in the medians between streets was like something you'd see at a botanical garden.

When did you go? Friend of mine said the polar opposite when I mentioned to him I wanted to visit. He went probably ~20 years ago so maybe things changed?

Most recent visit was around 2019 or 2020 I believe. The earliest was around 2015.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by Rawhide68 (here)
Is there a demographic breakdown of the Avalon members distrubution over the different nations on this globe?

Yes, though it's not an immediately accessible statistic. But I can say there are 67 members in the database that fly a Chinese flag in their profile, some of them genuine Chinese citizens physically located in China. The majority are no longer active. But we continue to receive the occasional application from China. Unfortunately, for one reason or another most don't make it (e.g. they don't speak a word of English).

[onawah]

I haven't been to China, but I have paid a lot of attention to information from people who have in the last 5 years or so, and what seems to be generally agreed upon is that Shanghai and the other larger cities that have more foreign visitors are much better maintained than other areas, particularly the more rural areas.

[Strat]

Posted by onawah (here)
I haven't been to China, but I have paid a lot of attention to information from people who have in the last 5 years or so, and what seems to be generally agreed upon is that Shanghai and the other larger cities that have more foreign visitors are much better maintained than other areas, particularly the more rural areas.

Very common in socialist countries I think.

[gini]

I have a wonderful friend from china,she is still in her twenties and has been travelling around the world on a very low budget as an artist and cook

.Ive spent many days with her and we talked a lot about life ,the world and a bit about politics. But i noticed quikly that all i could tell her about china was from western media,and she made me feel dumb & silly about my simplistic ideas about the reality of chinese culture ,society & politics.

She made me aware that chinese culture is as diverse as europe,africa or india and that what we see of china is mostly about the enormous city life and then particurally from the dominant part of china,(similar like london or brussels reflects only a small part of european culture )


She also told me that in many rural areas outside of the cities life is not that impacted by the chinese goverment but much more by traditional regional standards & customs. And that the social creditsystem is not everywhere but mainly around the big cities meaning the system is not totalitarian everywhere in china and she told me that in yunnan -where she came from i think-people did not feel connected to Being and had their own governance with local rules and regulations.


I would love to visit China and see it for myself,but i will need a sea of time to really get the picture of its diversity since i now realise that you cannot put China in a box

[Verdilac]

Hello everyone. I stayed in China for around a month some years back . I found it to be a very beautiful place, and surprisingly easy to find pockets of peaceful places "a must". I visited many places in Guangzhou ,Shenzhen, Beijing and HK. Wanted to visit the terracotta army exhibit but visiting Xian but that just got away from me . There was a small exhibition inside of the military museum in Beijing, solely dedicated to the terracotta warriors , so seeing that pacified me, a little.

It may surprise many people, but HK was the only place that seemed to sleep . The others seemed 24/7 .
The people were fantastic & very welcoming, and had a charm about them that our grand fathers & grandmothers had, tough at times but very genuine. Family values were a high priority and this made myself feel very comfortable every moment I was there.

Favourite place was the summer palace , and I walked a large percentage of it , in what seemed like subzero temperatures. Which in fairness gave the place a charm all of its own . The granite bridges were perfectly constructed & framed the waterways which ran beneath them . There was also various exhibits in the temples showing gifts & donations to the various dynasties who live there over time.

Getting back to the people for a moment .There generally know how things work & are very awake & aware of a great many things. For example, what we often use to think of as hidden knowledge was just the norm to them. Conversations about anything from the real rulers of countries, reasons for proxy wars etc were just talked about freely . Even ET stuff wasn't out of bounds for a chat . But having said all of that , the prime motivator was the generation of wealth.

What took me aback was some of the loyalty shown to workers by bosses & also the other way around. Many older people in society had served in the military so that in itself had created a pleasant atmosphere . I remeber when speaking to some of them, they informed see they didn't get to travel abroad during active duty. And only travelled after retiring from active service . But when they did , they absolutely loved speaking to people from other places, and had actually learned other languages in there 60's & 70's .

So I was quite impressed with the place & people overall & would certainly urge people to go if they have the means.

[Listkov]

Last time I've been over was 2017. First time was (probably) when I rode down with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurhaci give or take 400 years ago.

Most of the last thousand years or so, I've been a Jurchen/Manchu, from around the river Amur, in what's now split between Russia and China. I had the fortune or misfortune, depending on my mood that day, of being part of the Aisin-Gioro clan that ruled during the Qing dynasty.

Mixed impressions then. We set up an apartheid-like colonial system and lived segregated from the locals. It was a tough adjustment, often I felt dreadfully homesick. It was too hot, and I missed the wilds. Where I could roam for days and see no one. Had a great fondness of ice fishing.

Wasn't much of a warrior, though I liked to prance to and fro with the horse-bow, pantomiming mowing down hordes of cannibals or invading armies. I didn't differentiate between the two any more than a certain type of gun owner today would between "Red Dawn" and home invader fantasies.

At certain points, I was trained as a Shaman. I don't know exactly how adept I was, but it was enough to have romantic relations with spirits, as is the custom among many Siberian cultures, the best surviving being the Sakha. Because illegal immigrants would rather stay home than live as a frozen king in Yakutia. Fortunately, this translated well to literary pursuits.

Lots of wandering around in (self induced) trance states. I was greatly enamored with the rich literary tradition which far eclipsed that of my native people, and at one point was a well-respected author in literary Chinese. Who, I don't know, and it's likely any manuscripts have long been lost to time. But the emperor at the time was a fan. I was there during a reading and I saw him being greatly moved, from the glimmer in his eyes.

The common people, however, I tried my best to avoid. As much from an aristocratic sense as because of ethnic differences. Not too far from other colonial enterprises. Had bad experiences with necromancy. Sometimes we talked about the homeland, but it was a backwater and far detached from our everyday lives. Cannibal raiders lived there - so the stories went. At first immigration was limited, but from neglect and economic incentives, the native population of our homeland was replaced with migrant farmers. At the same time as westward expansion.

At the same time, the Han turned on us. They were largely in the right. Still, our people and culture didn't survive. A story that closely parallels the projected path of Caucasian people if nothing is done to stop replacement level migration.

In this life, I enjoyed visiting. In the west they have these chinese buffet's, like the Golden Corral. In China you get all you can drink beers with the price of entry. Motorcycles are fun, as is how you're allowed to shoot rats with wrist-rocket slingshots in the city. NYC sure could use it.

[shaberon]

Posted by Strat (here)

Posted by onawah (here)
I haven't been to China, but I have paid a lot of attention to information from people who have in the last 5 years or so, and what seems to be generally agreed upon is that Shanghai and the other larger cities that have more foreign visitors are much better maintained than other areas, particularly the more rural areas.

Very common in socialist countries I think.

That reflects the two kinds of ownership because there is no private property.

The urban areas are owned by the central government.

Rural areas are owned by the "local collective".

I don't know if other countries have that same law.

No, I've never seen it with my own eyes, although I had another Chinese customer today who was absolutely splendid, very patient and polite. On a human level, I know them from the inside, whereas I cannot relate to or understand most Anglos.

[Rawhide68]

When I had a heartattack it cost me 12 USD to get it fixed with 2! "stent inplants" in Sweden a Socialist country.

Just checked the web
The facility fee of stent placement varies from $ 17,000 to $ 53,000. The median cost found across the USA is $ 21,000

We pay high tax but we are insured by the state as well!

[rgray222]

I have been to China several times over the years. It is a fascinating place that is growing by leaps and bounds. The last time we went was to visit family who worked at the American Embassy. At the time my brother-in-law (an American and a close friend) worked at the Embassy for the State Department, my sister-in-law who was originally a Finnish Citizen had become an American and also worked at the US Embassy for the State Dept.

If you have made multiple trips to China and visited any major city more than once it is impossible not to witness its rapid development. New skyscrapers pop up like weeds after a heavy spring rain. On our first trip to China (1990's) people were in Mao jackets and bicycled everywhere. All that has changed, today Beijing and other major cities are bursting at the seams with traffic while busy urban workers bustle around like they would in NYC. People are friendly but there is an obvious language barrier. Not unlike other major cities around the world the further you get out of the city the more openly friendly and helpful people become.

You might think that dining in at some local establishment might be one of the highlights but China still uses human waste as a major source to fertilize their fields so my brother-in-law would only allow us to eat at some of the better hotels. Sadly, the small Chinese restaurants that looked so inviting were completely off-limits. This practice is fairly widespread but it is declining.

Of course, we did all the tourist stuff such as bargain for knock-off items from street vendors and shop owners. We thought we were getting great discounts for the first couple of days. Once my brother/sister-in-law came with us, they both spoke fluent Chinese, things dramatically changed. We were treated with great respect, a ton of curiosity and a boatload of caution.

My brother-in-law thoroughly enjoyed haggling to the point that you would have thought that the process would come to blows, but in the end, everyone was happy and it was smiles all around and occasionally it would end with an offer of tea or some sort of treat. His bargaining produced discount levels that exceeded the preposterous. After a few days, you got the sense that all the shop owners and people that you met had a well-cultivated and well-rehearsed surface friendliness that was good for business. I had the impression that you would never really get to know the Chinese people until you live there and spend a lot of time with them. Even then your foreignness might be an insurmountable barrier.

For a few days, we were nothing but tourists, Forbidden City, Tiananmen Square, Summer Palace etc. We also went to several different sections of the Great Wall outside of Beijing, it is truly a wonder of the world. Sadly people had carved their names and initials all over the tourist sections of the wall. Also, there is so much tourist stuff around certain segments of the wall that any mystique you may have conjured up over the years quickly evaporates.

We were invited to attend some government functions both at the US embassy and in some of the Chinese official sites around Beijing. Not only were there Chinese dignitaries but there was an assortment of foreign diplomats from various embassies around the world. All of the Chinese government officials spoke reasonably decent English but they were very calculated in what they would and would not say. I was left with the impression that Big Brother was very much watching and very much in control.

A few random observations in no special order

• The Chinese are the most capitalistic communist people on planet Earth
• Material wealth is very important to the Chinese, maybe even more so than to Americans
• Chinese people are genuinely friendly
• Chinese people are very industrious
• The level of growth is breathtaking, I wondered if the growth has been too fast.
• The first time I was in Beijing there was a lot of very visible poverty, it had been moved out of the city and to the outskirts of the city
• I think there is less poverty than I saw on my first trip
• Pollution is a serious problem
• China is very affordable
• Chinese people can be loud
• Chinese people tend to stare at foreigners
• China is very safe for locals as well as foreigners
• Public transportation is good and affordable
• China is crowded, personal space can be hard to come by
• Nobody in China was willing to talk about Taiwan
• Nobody in China was willing to talk about Tienanmen Sq
• It is hard to use cash and international credit cards, most everybody wants mobile payments which are not set up for foreigners.
• People were not necessarily afraid of the government but they had been conditioned not to talk about the government, especially to foreigners.

I got the distinct impression that Chinese citizens have digested the same amount of misinformation about the West from their government that the West had consumed about China. This mutual propaganda hate fest that both sides have engaged in has left everyone with a level of distrust that lies just below the surface. I honestly believe both countries are not doing themselves any favors by highlighting negative stories about each other countries.

People in China are not that different from other people around the world. It struck me that everyone wants a decent job and a chance to accumulate wealth. Above all else they want a safe environment to live their lives and raise a family. When you scratch the surface you easily and quickly find out we are all the same. Once again highlighting our differences instead of our similarities only ends in division.

On a final note China will match the USA as an economic and military superpower and at some point surpass the USA. Given the industrious nature of the Chinese and the large population base, this is a natural progression and should be viewed as such. Instead, the Chinese and Americans (especially the Chinese) view it as a competition which means there must be a winner and a loser. That outcome will not end well.

[Rawhide68]

The majority of your content seems to be generated by GPT

[rgray222]

Posted by Rawhide68 (here)
The majority of your content seems to be generated by GPT

While I am not angered by your comment I am baffled by why would make such a comment. I am leaning towards being flattered that you think I can write as well as AI.

I can guarantee you that not one word of my post was generated by AI. Also if you going to make an accusation for the sole purpose of undermining someone's credibility you really need to be very specific.

[Ankle Biter]

Between 2009 and 2013 I was consistently going to China 4 or 5 times per year staying upto a month at a time. I spent equal time between big cities and small villages/towns.

Borrowing from this list is also what really stood out for me.

Posted by rgray222 (here)

A few random observations in no special order

• The Chinese are the most capitalistic communist people on planet Earth
• Material wealth is very important to the Chinese, maybe even more so than to Americans
• Chinese people are genuinely friendly
• Chinese people are very industrious
• The level of growth is breathtaking, I wondered if the growth has been too fast.
• The first time I was in Beijing there was a lot of very visible poverty, it had been moved out of the city and to the outskirts of the city
• I think there is less poverty than I saw on my first trip
• Pollution is a serious problem
• China is very affordable
• Chinese people can be loud
• Chinese people tend to stare at foreigners
• China is very safe for locals as well as foreigners
• Public transportation is good and affordable
• China is crowded, personal space can be hard to come by
• Nobody in China was willing to talk about Taiwan
• Nobody in China was willing to talk about Tienanmen Sq
• It is hard to use cash and international credit cards, most everybody wants mobile payments which are not set up for foreigners.
• People were not necessarily afraid of the government but they had been conditioned not to talk about the government, especially to foreigners.

Poverty in rural areas is real struggle street kind of stuff. However, you won't see them sitting around doing nothing. Everyone has an idea, a plan, a hustle, a goal and so on. Industrious indeed!

Burning garbage in the open is common, from cities to towns. Also, you'll often see people (young mostly) litter. By the late evening things can look a little messy but in the early early morning I'd see the old people outside sweeping and tidying up and the place looked spotless again only to rinse and repeat this each day.

They fiercely love their country, it's history and culture... not as much love reserved for the government by everyone. They won't openly criticize the govt but might air their thoughts if they trust you and lighten up after a few drinks and some food.

Getting anything done is far from simple from the perspective of a Westerner, even when it ought to be simple. If you were wanting to get some business done you need someone who knows someone and there will be dinners, drinks, karaoke etc before anything can begin.

Families support each other a lot and the grandparents are well respected and cared for. Arguments can become very heated in families but they're mostly always resolved.

[onawah]

The problem with that list is that things have changed considerably in China in recent years, thanks to the CCP under XiJinping's increasingly oppressive rule.
Even the average Chinese people are becoming very dissatisfied, and demonstrations are on the rise, despite the fact that they are brutally discouraged by police.

(Note the origin of the first article: "Watch our interview with investigative reporter and Nobel Peace Prize nominee Ethan Gutmann." Does anyone think that is likely to be "anti-Chinese propaganda"?Also note that the other videos contain actual videos and/or photos affording visual proof that it's NOT disinformation.

'Organ Harvesting Is the Genocide Aspect': Expert
China in Focus - NTD
751K subscribers
Premiered Apr 27, 2024

"The world first heard of Falun Gong 25 years ago. On April 25, 1999, around 10,000 Falun Gong practitioners gathered in front of Zhongnanhai—the home and office compound of the Chinese leader.
The spiritual meditation practice teaches the principles of truthfulness, compassion, and forbearance, and was first released to the public in China in 1992. Seven years later, it had grown so popular that the Chinese communist regime deemed it a threat.
Three months after that peaceful demonstration, Beijing launched an all-out persecution against the faith, seeking to eradicate the 100 million people practicing.
"I said this is a Buddhist revival movement ... I don't see that as this massive threat," said Ethan Gutmann, senior research fellow in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation. "So there was something else going on."
"A part of what I felt was that the values that Falun Gong was espousing were actually quite against that sort of new China that was being presented by the Chinese Communist Party, which demands that one lies," he added.
Those practicing Falun Gong inside China were fired from their jobs, kidnapped from their homes, and thrown in prison.
But later, evidence of an even worse crime began to come to light: the forced organ harvesting of prisoners of conscience, while they were still alive.
Those organs supply China's lucrative organ match and transplant market.
"The organ harvesting is the genocide aspect ... this entire organ transplant system was built on the backs of Falun Gong," said Mr. Gutmann. "This is something that is going to hit every group. It's going to hit the Tibetans, it's just a question of getting the right hospitals set up in their region."
"If there had not been the Ukraine war, [the Stop Forced Organ Harvesting Act] would have gone through. If there had not been the Oct. 7 [Hamas attack on Israel], that bill would have gone through."
Watch our interview with investigative reporter and Nobel Peace Prize nominee Ethan Gutmann."

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=rApQ06GysJM

Mass Protest in China over Death of a 17-year-old
China in Focus - NTD
751K subscribers
Premiered Jan 8, 2025

(Reports say the student was pushed by the offspring of a priviliged CCP member, and will therefore go unpunished, as is usual in such cases.)
"A mass protest erupts inside China. Citizens got into scuffles with police as anger mounts over what led to a 17-year-old student's fatal fall from a building."

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=N-9S8nCxKtE

70% of Chinese Public Companies Unprofitable, Yet GDP up 5%. Their Data Fraud Is Now a Global Joke
China Observer
558K subscribers

“China’s GDP figures originate from annual targets, not end-of-year calculations.”

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=rMVaj_2b_wo

Xiong’An, a $4 Trillion Ghost Town; Homes Free, Still Unwanted
China Observer
558K subscribers
Jan 22, 2025

(Just one of many such "ghost towns" of "tofu dreg" construction which quickly fall apart and are never actually finished, though consumers must continue to pay the mortagages for the homes they will never inhabit.)

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=dAvoicaNB8w

China’s Wealthiest Family Emigrates With $300 Billion, Fleeing the Country
China Observer
558K subscribers
Jan 13, 2025

(Just one example of the many wealthy Chinese who have been fleeing the country.)

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=F0_RVXM1p1k

Mod note from Bill:
If you've not been to China, please don't post on this thread.

The reason I started this new thread was to see if we could collect some propaganda-free direct personal experiences from sources I felt we could absolutely trust — i.e. Avalon members who have been there.

At the moment, though the thread is only a few days old, I'm feeling I'm learning more about China from these extremely interesting posts than from any of the other China threads, which often feature articles, tweets or videos from people with strong opinions, or posted strong opinions from members themselves.

The factor at play here is that while we are all entitled to our opinions (and to express them!), opinions — about anything at all — that aren't based on some degree of personal experience may have slightly less value.

[Jad]

I’ve been to China a few times for business, visiting different cities each trip. Big cities like Shanghai and Guangzhou are super modern and clean, but places like Yiwu and Zigong felt older and dirtier. I also found people in China a bit more cold compared to the warmth and friendliness I experienced when I lived in Thailand for a year.
I also found that China’s natural beauty is absolutely stunning. One place that really stood out for me was Leshan. I visited the Giant Buddha there—a massive statue carved from the mountain, overlooking the river. The whole area had this peaceful, calming energy that you can feel immediately. Also there’s the Oriental Buddha Capital, which was like a natural park with so many statues of different deities scattered around. It was such a beautiful and unforgettable experience, and it left a lasting impression on me.
The food was very good, especially in the Sichuan region where they are famous for their spicy food.