What is Zionism?

[Mike]

It's just occured to me maybe a week ago that I may not know what Zionism is exactly (or at all!), and I may be completely misunderstanding world events as a result. It was a humbling thought.

The media tells us one thing, the alt media tells us another, and so called 'conspiracy theorists' all offer varying explanations.

To me, Zionists are just globalists masquerading as Jews. They sort of hijack the Jews and Israel and exploit their cause as a means of achieving a one-world globalist state.

Is that correct??

I'm hoping someone can explain, in a simple and straightforward way (maybe with bullet points) what Zionism really is. Thanks ahead of time.

[meat suit]

My understanding is that zionism is basically a business and control thing.
The installation of Israel in 1948 as a stronghold in the middle east mainly in order to control the flow of oil.

[thepainterdoug]

Mike, this is good and I appreciate the question. I always thought zionism is the establishment of a Jewish faith/religion in a location such as Israel.
As a religion, a belief like christianity, one would never need a location. It we be free to roam all over the world. i remember seeing Jews thanking Amidinashad in Iran for welcoming them
So why does the Jewish faith/ belief/ religion, need to be centralized in location?

[shaberon]

It's footnotes from the 1580s Geneva Bible, banned by King James, and then published in his version beginning around the fifth edition.

In early times, it was a background British religious idea, fervently held by early presidents of Yale and Harvard. At the time, there are remarks from other churchgoers that they were aware of it but did not agree, so, it was sort of a minority specialist fringe for over a hundred years.

It was spread in the U. S. by a certain Rev. Blackstone, and, was taken as official policy by President Wilson, the same one who enacted the Federal Reserve. Wilson's acquiescence was not attributed to diplomatic skills of the Zionists, but, to his religious sensitivities.

It's Protestant groupthink.

It's a figment of the imagination.

But yes the late nineteenth century finds it gaining the favor of Big Business and so forth, particularly in response to the breakup of the Ottoman Empire. Only at that point is it transferred as a gift to Jewish opportunists. At that point, the name was culled from phrases such as "a lover of Zion".

[Mike]

Posted by shaberon (here)
It's footnotes from the 1580s Geneva Bible, banned by King James, and then published in his version beginning around the fifth edition.

In early times, it was a background British religious idea, fervently held by early presidents of Yale and Harvard. At the time, there are remarks from other churchgoers that they were aware of it but did not agree, so, it was sort of a minority specialist fringe for over a hundred years.

It was spread in the U. S. by a certain Rev. Blackstone, and, was taken as official policy by President Wilson, the same one who enacted the Federal Reserve. Wilson's acquiescence was not attributed to diplomatic skills of the Zionists, but, to his religious sensitivities.

It's Protestant groupthink.

It's a figment of the imagination.

But yes the late nineteenth century finds it gaining the favor of Big Business and so forth, particularly in response to the breakup of the Ottoman Empire. Only at that point is it transferred as a gift to Jewish opportunists. At that point, the name was culled from phrases such as "a lover of Zion".

Got it, thanks.

Can you tell me what the original purpose of it was? And what it's current purpose is?

I think it would help me if some actual Zionists could be listed here too. If anyone could list a few of the most prominent Zionists, that would be helpful.

[Mike]

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

I used to believe it was the dream of a Utopian Jewish ethno-state -- a sort of Jewish MAGA -- arising after the horrors of WWII and concentrated in a single location. A bit like in the Matrix --



But I've come to suspect it's more complex than that, and more insidious, involving global finance and geopolitical control, its tentacles reaching everywhere. What it all means or adds up to, I really don't know!

[Mike]

Posted by Mark (Star Mariner) (here)
I used to believe it was the dream of a Utopian Jewish ethno-state -- a sort of Jewish MAGA -- arising after the horrors of WWII and concentrated in a single location. A bit like in the Matrix --



But I've come to suspect it's more complex than that, and more insidious, involving global finance and geopolitical control, its tentacles reaching everywhere. What it all means or adds up to, I really don't know!

Great giffage!

That's more or less my understanding of Zionism. But even if I was pressed at gunpoint, I don't think I could offer much more than that.

I was going to write about Zionism over on Substack, so I've been asking the same question over there in Notes. And I've subsequently stumbled onto another conspiracy: no one really knows what Zionism is!

It's the most talked about but least understood concept out there I think.

[shaberon]

Posted by Mike (here)
Got it, thanks.

Can you tell me what the original purpose of it was? And what it's current purpose is?

I think it would help me if some actual Zionists could be listed here too. If anyone could list a few of the most prominent Zionists, that would be helpful.

Political.

King James's objection was along the lines of the two possible authorities:


Bishops <--> republicanism


Geneva was a republic; the suspicion is obvious.

The annotations challenged the “divine right of kings,” a doctrine advocated by King James.


Bishops were, of course, by then a 1,500 year old Roman control mechanism. Rebuking it sounds mandatory, just not in the particular way it is being done.


Briefly going from notes on Christian Zionism:

Advocacy on the part of Christians for a Jewish restoration grew after the Reformation, and is rooted in 17th-century England. Contemporary Israeli historian Anita Shapira suggests that England's Zionist evangelical Christians "passed this notion on to Jewish circles" around the 1840s, while Jewish nationalism in the early 19th century was largely met with hostility from British Jews.

Advocacy of the restoration of Palestine as a national homeland for the Jews was first heard among self-identified Christian groups in the 1580s following the Protestant Reformation.

Coupled with this was a general cultural Hebraising among more radical Protestants, as they saw the veneration of saints as idolatry and placed more focus on the Biblical prophets of the Old Testament, often naming their children Jeremiah, Zachary, Daniel, Sampson and the like.

Puritans and Presbyterians spent some time in Geneva in the 1560s under Calvin's successor Theodore Beza and developed a translation of the Bible called the Geneva Bible, which contained footnotes in reference to the Book of Romans, specifically claiming that the Jews would be converted to Christianity in the end times and reorientating attention to Palestine as a central theatre. This view came to be taken up strongly by English Puritans, Lowland Scots Presbyterians, and even some Continental Protestants.

On Beza's page, nothing is really expressed about this. He does however write a book which is defining religion as the exact opposite of Dharma:


Concerning the Rights of Rulers Over Their Subjects and the Duty Of Subjects Towards Their Rulers



The first offending interpretations were offered on Romans 11:25 and 11:28:


For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (Rom. 11:25).

The blindness of the Jews is neither so universal that the Lord hath no elect in that nation, neither shall it be continual: for there shall be a time wherein they also (as the Prophets have forewarned) shall effectually embrace that which they do now so stubbornly for the most part reject and refuse.

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers (Rom. 11:28).


Sounds dangerous.

From its history:


The first
volume in English to expound this conviction at some length was the translation of
Peter Martyr’s Commentary upon Romans, published in London in 1568.


and it goes on to list numbers of tracts published from there through the 1600s. As a reaction to one:


King James of England was offended by Finch’s
statement that all nations would become subservient to national Israel at the time of her
restoration


Some of the only ideological opponents were Napoleon and Russia.

Sadler, Cromwell's secretary, even argued that the British were one of the Lost Tribes of Israel in his pamphlet The Rights of the Kingdom (1649) and thus kindred to the Jews, initiating British Israelism.


Other Puritans such as Jeremiah Burroughs, Peter Bulkley, John Fenwicke and John Cotton, some of whom lived in the Massachusetts Bay Colony, saw Jewish re-entry to England as a step on the path to their eventual return to Palestine.

A prominent French-born figure Isaac La Peyrère, who was nominally a Huguenot Calvinist, but came from a Portuguese New Christian (converted Sephardic Jewish) family was also a significant 17th century progenitor, with influence on both sides of the English Channel. La Peyrère in his millennialist work Du rappel des juifs (1643) wrote about a Jewish return to Palestine, predicted the building of the Third Temple and Jerusalem playing the most powerful role in world governance: all working towards the Second Coming. La Peyrère closely followed the developments of Oliver Cromwell's Dissenter regime and dreamed of overthrowing Louis XIV of France and replacing him with the Prince of Condé (who he worked for as a secretary) as part of a millennialist proto-Zionist messianic project.

After the publication of La Peyrère's book the Amsterdam-based Menasseh Ben Israel informed his friend, Petrus Serrarius (a close associate of John Dury), about the importance of the theories, showing an early interplay between 17th century Jewish and Protestant proto-Zionism.

Serrarius ended up being the main supporter among Protestants in Amsterdam of the message that Sabbatai Zevi was the Messiah, as proclaimed by Nathan of Gaza (his followers, the Sabbateans, were based in the Ottoman Empire but he had significant support throughout the Jewish diaspora).


In 1818, President John Adams wrote, "I really wish the Jews again in Judea an independent nation", and believed that they would gradually become Unitarian Christians.

As the demise of the Ottoman Empire appeared to be approaching, the advocacy of restorationism increased.

In 1831 the Ottomans were driven from Greater Syria (including Palestine) by an expansionist Egypt, in the First Turko-Egyptian War. Although Britain forced Muhammad Ali to withdraw to Egypt, the Levant was left for a brief time without a government. The ongoing weakness of the Ottoman Empire made some in the west consider the potential of a Jewish state in the Holy Land. A number of important figures within the British government advocated such a plan, including Charles Henry Churchill.

That is what you get from societies that are not governed by Orthodoxy.

[rgray222]

Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
Mike, this is good and I appreciate the question. I always thought zionism is the establishment of a Jewish faith/religion in a location such as Israel.
As a religion, a belief like christianity, one would never need a location. It we be free to roam all over the world. i remember seeing Jews thanking Amidinashad in Iran for welcoming them
So why does the Jewish faith/ belief/ religion, need to be centralized in location?

Doug, it is my understanding that not all Jews practice Judaism, and for that matter, not all Palestinians practice Islam. Jews were persecuted for the better part of two millennia, which culminated in the Holocaust of the second War II. The Zionist movement had been around for a while, but it picked up steam in the late 18th and early 19th century, advocating for the establishment of a Jewish homeland as a sovereign country with a secure national identity for the protection of Jews.

I think it is safe to say that the Palestinians are deserving of their own sovereign country with a secure national identity for the protection of all Palestinians. This would go a long way to preventing the continued persecution of the Palestinians.

[Mike]

Posted by shaberon (here)

Posted by Mike (here)
Got it, thanks.

Can you tell me what the original purpose of it was? And what it's current purpose is?

I think it would help me if some actual Zionists could be listed here too. If anyone could list a few of the most prominent Zionists, that would be helpful.

Political.

King James's objection was along the lines of the two possible authorities:


Bishops <--> republicanism


Geneva was a republic; the suspicion is obvious.

The annotations challenged the “divine right of kings,” a doctrine advocated by King James.


Bishops were, of course, by then a 1,500 year old Roman control mechanism. Rebuking it sounds mandatory, just not in the particular way it is being done.


Briefly going from notes on Christian Zionism:

Advocacy on the part of Christians for a Jewish restoration grew after the Reformation, and is rooted in 17th-century England. Contemporary Israeli historian Anita Shapira suggests that England's Zionist evangelical Christians "passed this notion on to Jewish circles" around the 1840s, while Jewish nationalism in the early 19th century was largely met with hostility from British Jews.

Advocacy of the restoration of Palestine as a national homeland for the Jews was first heard among self-identified Christian groups in the 1580s following the Protestant Reformation.

Coupled with this was a general cultural Hebraising among more radical Protestants, as they saw the veneration of saints as idolatry and placed more focus on the Biblical prophets of the Old Testament, often naming their children Jeremiah, Zachary, Daniel, Sampson and the like.

Puritans and Presbyterians spent some time in Geneva in the 1560s under Calvin's successor Theodore Beza and developed a translation of the Bible called the Geneva Bible, which contained footnotes in reference to the Book of Romans, specifically claiming that the Jews would be converted to Christianity in the end times and reorientating attention to Palestine as a central theatre. This view came to be taken up strongly by English Puritans, Lowland Scots Presbyterians, and even some Continental Protestants.

On Beza's page, nothing is really expressed about this. He does however write a book which is defining religion as the exact opposite of Dharma:


Concerning the Rights of Rulers Over Their Subjects and the Duty Of Subjects Towards Their Rulers



The first offending interpretations were offered on Romans 11:25 and 11:28:


For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (Rom. 11:25).

The blindness of the Jews is neither so universal that the Lord hath no elect in that nation, neither shall it be continual: for there shall be a time wherein they also (as the Prophets have forewarned) shall effectually embrace that which they do now so stubbornly for the most part reject and refuse.

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers (Rom. 11:28).


Sounds dangerous.

From its history:


The first
volume in English to expound this conviction at some length was the translation of
Peter Martyr’s Commentary upon Romans, published in London in 1568.


and it goes on to list numbers of tracts published from there through the 1600s. As a reaction to one:


King James of England was offended by Finch’s
statement that all nations would become subservient to national Israel at the time of her
restoration


Some of the only ideological opponents were Napoleon and Russia.

Sadler, Cromwell's secretary, even argued that the British were one of the Lost Tribes of Israel in his pamphlet The Rights of the Kingdom (1649) and thus kindred to the Jews, initiating British Israelism.


Other Puritans such as Jeremiah Burroughs, Peter Bulkley, John Fenwicke and John Cotton, some of whom lived in the Massachusetts Bay Colony, saw Jewish re-entry to England as a step on the path to their eventual return to Palestine.

A prominent French-born figure Isaac La Peyrère, who was nominally a Huguenot Calvinist, but came from a Portuguese New Christian (converted Sephardic Jewish) family was also a significant 17th century progenitor, with influence on both sides of the English Channel. La Peyrère in his millennialist work Du rappel des juifs (1643) wrote about a Jewish return to Palestine, predicted the building of the Third Temple and Jerusalem playing the most powerful role in world governance: all working towards the Second Coming. La Peyrère closely followed the developments of Oliver Cromwell's Dissenter regime and dreamed of overthrowing Louis XIV of France and replacing him with the Prince of Condé (who he worked for as a secretary) as part of a millennialist proto-Zionist messianic project.

After the publication of La Peyrère's book the Amsterdam-based Menasseh Ben Israel informed his friend, Petrus Serrarius (a close associate of John Dury), about the importance of the theories, showing an early interplay between 17th century Jewish and Protestant proto-Zionism.

Serrarius ended up being the main supporter among Protestants in Amsterdam of the message that Sabbatai Zevi was the Messiah, as proclaimed by Nathan of Gaza (his followers, the Sabbateans, were based in the Ottoman Empire but he had significant support throughout the Jewish diaspora).


In 1818, President John Adams wrote, "I really wish the Jews again in Judea an independent nation", and believed that they would gradually become Unitarian Christians.

As the demise of the Ottoman Empire appeared to be approaching, the advocacy of restorationism increased.

In 1831 the Ottomans were driven from Greater Syria (including Palestine) by an expansionist Egypt, in the First Turko-Egyptian War. Although Britain forced Muhammad Ali to withdraw to Egypt, the Levant was left for a brief time without a government. The ongoing weakness of the Ottoman Empire made some in the west consider the potential of a Jewish state in the Holy Land. A number of important figures within the British government advocated such a plan, including Charles Henry Churchill.

That is what you get from societies that are not governed by Orthodoxy.

Got it. And currently, in 2025, what are the Zionists seeking to achieve exactly?

[9ideon]

Got it. And currently, in 2025, what are the Zionists seeking to achieve exactly?

As far as I understand it concerning Israel, it's about re-creating Biblical Israel/Judah etc., even larger than those days if informed correctly, they want, see it as their right given by their "god", control over that region.

Another thing they're hellbend on is to instigate/invoke, whatever, the endtimes.

One could argue they're some endtime cult, like Isis was in a way.

That's how I was once informed on the whole Zionist thing. Been commenting on that larger Israel in relation to endtime signs, People look at Israel now, they do not look at Israel from Biblical times, it was bigger and so a few of these signs are now playing out in other countries, People seem to forget that, in any case, it is pretty fascinating to see this all happening.

There's a couple of maps, this one might be the best example territory wise.

[meat suit]

The first time I saw Ridley Scotts Kingdom of Heaven, I was just.. wow, I can see how far this goes back...
Paraphrazing.. what worth has Jerusalem? 'everything and nothing'

Full verision on youtube, surprisingly

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=fYwltAAhuuw

[Raskolnikov]

Be curious to know if this is closer to the insidious goal of Zionism:

[shaberon]

Posted by Mike (here)
Got it. And currently, in 2025, what are the Zionists seeking to achieve exactly?

Knesset approves resolution affirming “Israel’s right to sovereignty” in the occupied West Bank: Israeli media

Golan and Sweida as semi-autonomous cantons


Here is what I realized.

Most of the time through all of this -- i. e., before Syria's color revolutions -- by studying so much about politics and finance, I thought the main driver was the investment opportunity, whose name I can't remember. Maybe someone can. It was a logistics hub, and energy, etc., in south Israel I think. This plus "normalization" with Arab countries. And so I thought it was doomed, because in reality the financial empire never got a penny since 2008, not that it got one then, either.

So I relegated Zionism to a foofy superstition that already happened, and forgot about it.

That was incorrect.

It's not a financial empire. It's a military doctrine that was politically legalized around 2004.

I was not even aware of that until analyzing the current conflict.

Here, of course, we are talking about extremism, while it would be true there are other kinds of "Zionism" as individual beliefs. For example, a recent type of crowd that has drawn around a million or so adherents, is Messianic Judaism, with an expectancy of the Second Coming. Similar to the Sabbatean Frankists of the 1700s.

I am no longer in a position to dispute we are probably looking at a long-term conquest aimed into Iraq.

The contemptuous attitude as posted by Herzl sure seems to be taking effect.

In the vernacular we call it Shoah Business, a churning of urban legend such as the "six million" figure which was quoted out of a 1920s newspaper.

Now, despite having humped Germany for an outrageous amount of money, we are supposed to keep some ridiculously sympathetic support. I would expect they will have to resort to propping up right-wing death squads in, for example, coal-producing countries.

The future, from our point of view, would be endless carnage.

[Gemma13]

Zionism was a movement that resulted in displaced Jews returning to their native land to establish the State of Israel. The Brits handed over the territory, and the Rothschild dynasty helped bankroll the infrastructure. In keeping with every colonialist endeavour, be it British v Native Americans or Dutch v South African tribes or Han Chinese v Tibetans or any number of conquests throughout the ages, there was always going to be conflict.

Fast forward a hundred years, and we have a thriving country that is one of the most diverse and inclusive on the planet. Zionists believe Israel is a legitimate State with rights to occupy its land.

Alas, you can’t please everyone, and to this day we have Jewish factions in opposition; fanatics obsessing over antiquated conspiracy theories; Utopians cobbling together all their grievances under one Zionists-are-bad label; naive bleeding hearts thinking all Palestinian Islamists adhere to Western Values; and the most lethal of them all, the Muslim Brotherhood who have successfully rebranded Zionism into a trendy slogan—a call to (their) violent revolution—by infiltrating and exploiting the toddler mentality of Woke DEI movements in the West that have been allowed to throw tantrums for far too long.

MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD

The Muslim Brotherhood controls various Islamist movements, charitable organisations, and political parties. Hamas and Hezbollah are just two of their branches that preach death to Israel, America, and Western Governments. They are a death cult. Period. I’m assuming this is common knowledge on Avalon so I won’t expand further.

The global Islamist project to revive the caliphate that was abolished in 1924 is now headquartered in the West […]. The Muslim Brotherhood and all other Islamist groups and individuals suspected of mutiny were banned, imprisoned, defunded, and evicted by the Arab governments that either hosted them or tolerated them in the past. Many of those Islamists relocated to the West where they found a warm welcome within the ranks of the existing Islamist bases in Europe and even in America now we have extensive networks of mosques, Muslim schools, Islamic societies, public relations councils, student associations, law firms, political and policy networks all working incrementally towards their stated goal of conquering the West through nonviolent means, and of course in the process defaming Israel Zionism and reviving the anti-semitism we all thought was defeated. – Aayan Hirsi Ali

JEWISH ANTI-ZIONISM FACTIONS

. American Council for Judaism asserts Judaism is a universal religious faith, not an ethnic or nationalist identity, fearing antisemitism if viewed as having dual loyalties.

. Religious Anti-Zionists maintain Israel can only be regained miraculously because Zionism is a secular movement packed with non-Jewish influences.

. Ultra-Orthodox Jews: The Neturei Karta are so extreme they’ve met with leaders of Iran and Hezbollah, and the Satmar sect believes Jews are required to wait for the Messiah.

. IfNotNow is supposedly a non-violent movement, though their civil disobedience has resulted in hundreds of demonstrators being arrested. They demand an end to the war in Gaza without acknowledging the very real threat to Israel.

. International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network promotes the liberation of people in Palestine.

Comment: Dual loyalties can be applied to any religious organisation, so okay, whatever, and… um, no comment on the religious points. Re the last two: What would the liberation of people in Palestine look like to a Westerner?

One can assume it means citizens are free from State-imposed oppressions for starters—freedom of worship, freedom of speech, freedom of sexual orientation and marriage, diverse curricula in education, a high score on the democracy framework, and robust medical and employment opportunities—and yet, none of that applies to Palestine under Hamas dictatorship and it has nothing to do with Israel.

Even if Israel signed off on the two-state solution, which it once agreed to, the Palestinian people would still suffer. They would still be indoctrinated from birth into hating Jews and striving for martyrdom by killing as many Jews as they can while being starved of basic human rights and food, because let’s face it, there’s no greater visual to tug at our Western hearts. And Hamas is very explicit about this.

Just six excerpts here of highly regarded individuals, in their own words, talking on Gaza, etc tv:

The Koran itself says they have no parallel. You shall find the strongest men in enmity to the believers to be the Jews. May he annihilate these filthy people who have neither religion or conscience. I condemn whoever believes in normalising relations with them, whoever supports sitting down with them, and whoever believes that they are human beings. They are not human beings. They are not people. They have no religion, no conscience, and no moral values.

Our hatred of the Jews is based upon our faith. The Koran tells us to hate them, not to love them.

If the Jews left Palestine to us would we start loving them? Of course not. We will never love them. Absolutely not. Your belief regarding the Jews should be, first they are infidels, and second, that they are enemies. They are enemies not because they occupied Palestine. They would have been enemies even if they had not occupied a thing.

We will treat the Jews as our enemies even if they return Palestine to us.

In short these are the Jews, As Muslims our blood vengeance against them will only subside with their annihilation, Allah willing because they tried to kill our prophet.

The worst enemies of the Muslims after Satan are the Jews. Who said this? Allah did.

Geez, don’t hold back, boys. No one expects you to love them, but integration is a thing.

Is it any wonder Israel has come to her senses in realizing that a two-state solution might not be a good idea after all?

NON-RELIGIOUS JEWISH ANTI-ZIONIST GROUPS

Jewish Voice for Peace, established by three undergraduate students from the University of California, Berkeley, with 12 active chapters on college campuses, and their cousins, Students for Justice in Palestine, and the BDS movement, are all acolytes of intersectionality that oppose the State of Israel because they have a deluded belief that it counters the ideals of justice, equality, and freedom for all people. They argue Zionism is a colonial movement and an apartheid state. They also believe Zionism encourages Jews to be suspicious of their non-Jewish neighbours and that it is a racist hierarchy with white European Jews at the top.

Comment: Understanding Intersectionality here is key: a pop-up Feminist claim-to-fame in the 80’s that gained enough traction within universities to inspire political campaigners to usher it in for sympathy votes. The ideology was masked as progressive because it was supposedly going to end any remnants of a patriarchal society, but it went terribly wrong.

No surprises there when it was driven by extreme feminists demanding males, in particular white ones, be routinely neutered; black women be fast-tracked into the highest positions everywhere; mental health subscribers to never be refused an application for a leadership position because it’s unfair to expect them to work their way up the ladder of meritocracy; feelings of victimisation to be validated and never challenged; and a strict adherence to the idea that white European colonialism is alive and well.

Colonialism was par for the course for millennia and, sadly, never without bloodshed. Horrible stuff until we came up with democratic frameworks to prevent Monarchs and Emperors from entertaining themselves playing chess using citizens as pieces on the board. We made reparations. We abolished slavery, segregation, and racism. We empowered women and the LGB. How is it this thinking expects we ride back in time on a rainbow to start all over again? To dismantle Israel, we’d have to dismantle every country. It’s ludicrous.

EVIL ZIONISTS

Are there evil Zionists who advocate the genocide of non-Jews? I'd be surprised if there weren’t. People gonna be people. Neo-Nazi’s and the like. But this type of extremism in Israel will land you in prison. Although Tamir Zorek - Liberal Arts Professor of Middle East History, Penn State – isn’t so sure anymore because Rabbi Mali wasn’t prosecuted.

After Oct 7, 2023 Israelis’ deep-seated fears of annihilation by Jihadists were reignited. A country grieving, angry, sobbing, and praying for surviving loved ones to be returned, Rabbi Eliyahu Mali made this statement in March 2024, and it was circulated: If you don’t kill them first, they will kill you. The terrorists of today are the children of the previous operation whom you kept alive, and the women are those who produce the terrorists… The Torah tells you: Do not keep alive any soul, so you should not keep alive any soul.

Oof. Nasty business between these two cultures, that’s for sure. But unlike Hamas leaders who preach to the world that they won’t sleep until they’ve committed genocide on every living Jew, the Rabbi was investigated and responded that his comments were grossly misrepresented by excerpts being taken out of context—those damn soundbites. He’d set out what the position was in ancient times, making it very clear that anyone following the Biblical commandment today would be causing the army and the nation extreme harm and that under national law, it is forbidden to harm the civilian population from a child to an old man.

The UN’s special rapporteur on human rights in the occupied Palestinian territories, Francesca Albanese—whose own criticisms of Israeli actions have been strongly contested—agrees Hamas leaders should be held accountable. But she says: “When assessing genocide, one is to look at the words spoken by leaders, but also the capacity to commit genocide, which Hamas per se doesn't seem to have.”

Hmm, okay, so an unambiguous intention to commit genocide without having sophisticated weaponry excuses the lead-up genocide using primitive weapons. Okay, gotcha!

CONSPIRACY THEORIES

As much as I’d love to expound on some of these, this post is already too long, and I haven’t even covered all I wanted to share. Perhaps in another post, but I will say this: There’s a cult of followers believing the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” is fact when it was largely ripped from a political satire piece written by Maurice Joly and disseminated as propaganda by communist dictators wanting to annihilate cosmopolitan Jews-Zionists fearing, rightly so, that their rising economic power might challenge their totalitarian regimes.

Jews paid a heavy price, survived, and in a cruel twist of fate, are now being persecuted by Marxist Woke socialists and their Jihadist comrades.

The “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” was made available online and enjoys extensive global travel, all expenses paid.

COMBATING ANTISEMITISM

Should we and why? There is no conspiracy that we are at a critical juncture in history with our Western Values being systematically dismantled from within in a sophisticated invasion that has already drawn blood in our communities. Times up. The Woke Socialist-Communist movement has been co-opted and usurped by a global Jihadist movement that has already demonstrated alarming success in dismantling parts of Europe.

The Islamist movement came here, [America], and they're exploiting principles like freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of association, and so on. These progressive movements that we have here have got to understand that. We've got to become really creative in finding a way of preserving our principles. – Aayan Hirsi Ali

In April 2025, Harvard University produced a lengthy document—Presidential Task Force on Combating Antisemitism and Anti-Israel Bias. It’s a start. Learning to recognize shiny propaganda outlets in the age of technology is another. For example, Al Jazeera is funded by Qatar. Qatar is a major sponsor of Hamas $1.8 billion ($30 million per month). In 2025, the Palestinian Authority, which Hamas took de facto control of in 2006, suspended Al Jazeera in Gaza for deceiving and stirring up strife.

We have the liberty of thrashing out debates over untold conspiracy theories and propaganda and we can do that till the bloody cows come home, but right now, ramping up awareness to choose the right side of history in our own countries is crucial. It can’t be any clearer: Jihadists or Jews.

Islam is one of the fastest growing religions in Europe and America, and it's growing by converting people. The Hispanic population in Houston is converting to Islam but no one has told that population what it really means to join that religion. - Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Extracts are taken from a lecture and Q&A at the University of Austin with guest speaker Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and I can’t recommend it enough. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T3vyvs2rXA

[Kryztian]

Posted by rgray222 (here)
it is my understanding that not all Jews practice Judaism, and for that matter, not all Palestinians practice Islam.

Palestinians are no more Islamic than Americans (that is, the people of the USA) are Christian. What unifies Palestinians is that (1) they are the indigenous to the area known historically as Palestine or previous to that as Caanan, and (2) they speak Arabic. There religions were Islam, Christianity and Judiasm. Yes, there really are Palestinian Jews. There have always been some Jews in Palestine, the population going at low as two percent some times, but many of the Jews who arrived in Palestine in the nineteenth and early twentieth century integrated with the Arabic Jews and the larger Arabic society as a whole. Christians, at their height, were probably about 25 percent of the Palestinian population.

Since the Nakba, the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by such terrorist groups as Haganah, Irgun and Lehi (which combined together to become the IDF, Israeli Defense Force), more Palestinian Christians have left for Europe and North America than any other part of the population and most Palestinian Jews have accepted Israeli citizenship, so Palestinians now living in Gaza and the West Bank are overwhelmingly (at least 80%) Islamic (whether or not they are currently practicing Islam or just that their ancestors were.)

Despite their religious difference Palestinians have always gotten along just fine, and they never had time for religious squabbles because they had real enemies: it was their occupiers, the Ottomans and then the British. And then, it was the Zionists settlers, who didn't want to speak their language, didn't want to integrate into Palestinians culture, but somehow felt they were the rightful owners of the land they had just arrived in. The problem for Palestinians wasn't that the new settlers were Jewish, it was that they wanted no part of the society that existed in there, and yet the felt very entitled to the land that they refused to call Palestine. And soon, these new people would start smuggling in arms (courtesy of Meyer Lansky and other members of the Supermob, and financed by people like the Bronfman family) and show up with their weapons in Arab villages telling people they had to leave the country or they would be killed. And they did murder many, many people and forced over a million people to leave their homes.

Our pro-Zionist media and educational system tries to give off the impression that the conflict is between Judiasm and Islam, although they never say this explicitly. Often Zionists will talk about the problems of the Arabs, which they want you to assume means Moslems, but what they are really talking about is a multi-religious group of people who have a connection to the land that goes back centuries and millennia. Zionists will also talk about themselves as if they are "the Jews", although many Jews are indifferent on the matter of Zionism, and some of them, including all Hasidic Jews, think that Zionism is an abomination.

[shaberon]

Today we're replacing the notion that Judaism is Zionism with Islam is a Caliphate?

Posted by Gemma13 (here)
...the most lethal of them all, the Muslim Brotherhood who have successfully rebranded Zionism into a trendy slogan—a call to (their) violent revolution—by infiltrating and exploiting the toddler mentality of Woke DEI movements in the West that have been allowed to throw tantrums for far too long.

MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD

The Muslim Brotherhood controls various Islamist movements, charitable organisations, and political parties. Hamas and Hezbollah are just two of their branches that preach death to Israel, America, and Western Governments. They are a death cult. Period. I’m assuming this is common knowledge on Avalon so I won’t expand further.

[I]The global Islamist project to revive the caliphate that was abolished in 1924 is now headquartered in the West […].

That's a major and rather serious allegation; why would one assume it is common knowledge?

At the same time while trying to obfuscate the real issue?


This is Communist doctrine:

Colonialism was par for the course for millennia and, sadly, never without bloodshed. Horrible stuff until we came up with democratic frameworks to prevent Monarchs and Emperors from entertaining themselves playing chess using citizens as pieces on the board. We made reparations. We abolished slavery, segregation, and racism. We empowered women and the LGB. How is it this thinking expects we ride back in time on a rainbow to start all over again? To dismantle Israel, we’d have to dismantle every country. It’s ludicrous.

The spread of Democracy is something I, at least, have read many dangers of, on the Avalon Forum.



This is out-of-touch:

Are there evil Zionists who advocate the genocide of non-Jews? I'd be surprised if there weren’t. People gonna be people. Neo-Nazi’s and the like. But this type of extremism in Israel will land you in prison.

Be surprised? Ok. It used to be illegal. Now it's not.

As much as I’d love to expound on some of these, this post is already too long, and I haven’t even covered all I wanted to share. Perhaps in another post, but I will say this: There’s a cult of followers believing the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” is fact when it was largely ripped from a political satire piece written by Maurice Joly and disseminated as propaganda by communist dictators wanting to annihilate cosmopolitan Jews-Zionists fearing, rightly so, that their rising economic power might challenge their totalitarian regimes.

This is factually incorrect because:


it was first published in Imperial Russia in 1903


It's Tsarist propaganda. It's not Communist.

Grabbing for low-hanging fruit:

We have the liberty of thrashing out debates over untold conspiracy theories and propaganda and we can do that till the bloody cows come home, but right now, ramping up awareness to choose the right side of history in our own countries is crucial. It can’t be any clearer: Jihadists or Jews.

This is a banal attempt to ignite Islamophobia.

...we are at a critical juncture in history with our Western Values being systematically dismantled from within in a sophisticated invasion...

Can anyone tell me what this is?

John Birch used to tell me it was already dismantled, by the Communists; I need to know what to put back so someone else can take it.

Lashkar e taiba definitely has a goal of putting India under a caliphate. There was a mass shooting and brief battle about that recently. They believe it still belongs to the Mughals. Pakistan overly-yielded itself to the CIA for a good thirty years or so. That is why it is training camp heaven.

I understand most of that was quoted from a lecture, although my reaction is that it is white noise.

[onawah]

All historical and religious perspectives aside, what I think of when I think of Zionism was superbly characterized by the actor David Suchet in the BBC dramatization of the novel by Anthony Trollope, "The Way We Live Now".
The character Suchet played was Mr. Melmott, a ruthless businessman, politician and social climber who cared for nothing but money and power, and considered that anyone who thought differently was a fool.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wa...2001_TV_serial)

[Michel Leclerc]

I wondered whether I would contribute to this thread at all. I think that, let us say: 12 (twelve) hours of study would be sufficient to get a a good picture of what "Zionism” means. Maybe Wikipedia, and for heaven’s sake, NOT Artificial Intelligence, could provide one with sufficiently objective ideas. But it would mean that one researched: Judaism, Nationalism, Colonialism, Hebrew (the language) etc.

Instead of that a question is asked in order to get an answer from a Forum. The Forum as a form of Encyclopedia.

No wonder one gets, e.g., incomplete answers, politically slanted answers, axes to grind – and a few corrective posts from Shaberon.

***

I am posting because what I have read has been characteristically oblivious of one thing: Zionism is inseparable from the creation of modern “Ivrit”, which is an artificial product created since Herzl, based upon: simplified Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic; the modified Hebrew words that are part of Yiddish; modern Aramaic; Arabic; words from other modern European languages. It has been internally marketed as the language of the Israelis c.q. imposed on the immigrants, and is nowadays being marketed to Christian Zionists and Israel-loving Jews and non-Jews.

No Zionism without a common language, be it something conjured out of a language laboratory.