A loving god????

[Pam]

I have been a member of this forum for a long time. I haven't written much as I was hit with one disaster after another, as if that is unique????

A tad of my history. Born in US, raised as a Southern Baptist, at least till the "pastor" took a personal interest in me at the age of 13. A while later I became a Jehovah's witness. I was impressed with their intellectual understanding of the bible... dropped out when I realized they were allegedly the only ones to live on.

Anyway to make a long story short, added with the conspiracy theory in me. I started observing the birds. They are always on the lookout as they don't want to be someone's prey. For many years I have always called this a predator/prey world. It took me reading the Nag Hammadi books to figure it out.

Why would a loving God, a god who could create any form of energy exchange make a world that requires us to kill each something else to live? Not only that but later I will bring up our "loving god's" digressions if there is any interest in this topic...

Any way, lets leave it at that for a starter. I hope it sparks a conversation, if not the the thread can always find obscurity

Welcome to new members, folks that forever question of reality....... We could have fun with this discussion.....
It sort of opens up a whole can of worms.

I also do not want to offend any Christians. I still have every bible i ever owned. The difference I read the words of Jesus not the other stuff.


Any way, any interest I have a bunch of stuff, If not it can trail off into eternity.


Your friend, Pam

[Pam]

Hold on for the book of Enoch. It will blow your mind.

[Johan (Keyholder)]

About the nature of god/God, entire libraries have been written.

My background (as a child/adolescent) has been Roman-Catholic, but even when I was 12 years old. The question you ask "Why would a loving God, a god who could create any form of energy exchange make a world that requires us to kill each something else to live?", I asked at that time too.

And I went searching for a more "sensible" explanation. It has been a real "odyssey". It would indeed be an interesting discussion that we can have here.

At this time, the best explanation I found is in the following book, there is a thread about it on the forum here:

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1066804

plus another longer thread started by George on August 6th 2020.

[Johan (Keyholder)]

"Why would a loving God, a god who could create any form of energy exchange make a world that requires us to kill each something else to live?"

The question above can be understood, IF you look deeper into gnosticism. Where god=the demiurge which is not the All That Is, which we should consider as GOD.

There are many different "types" of gnosticism. I found it very useful to read C G Jung's books and Viktor Frankl his works (founder of logotherapy, his main subject was "meaning").

[rgray222]

Posted by Pam (here)
Why would a loving God, a god who could create any form of energy exchange make a world that requires us to kill each something else to live? Not only that but later I will bring up our "loving god's" digressions if there is any interest in this topic...

Your friend, Pam

Great topic, Pam. I'm not sure I am qualified to answer the question, but here are some thoughts. I was raised a Catholic, and went to catholic schools most of my life. I have spent my entire life questioning religion, and I suspect that I will still be questioning it when I take my last breath. I don't do this to be defiant or because I don't believe in a God. I do this because it is the journey that brings a bit more clarity every day. I respect and admire those who have taken such a strong leap of faith and believe with such fervour that they have achieved some sort of understanding and peace. I often think that it would be wonderful to have that kind of faith. I understand that many people look at such devotion with distaste, but my feeling is that each person has the right to pursue whatever path that works for them.

I, too, read Victor Frankl's book "Man's Search for Meaning" and some of Jung's books, and they are helpful. However, I actually believe that the search for answers is more of an internal, introspective pursuit. I have been grappling with the fact that this world is a temporary material world, and allowing oneself to become attached to it can lead to suffering. It is better to focus on a more meaningful and lasting existence while in this world, such as altruism, compassion, gratitude, spirituality and above all, peace. Of course, it is not always possible to do this, as life often gets in the way. That's why we must keep our focus and always find our way back to these thoughts. When we do, life provides more meaning and purpose. It is when we allow all the noise and negativity to take over that we lose our way and give up hope. It's difficult, but we must begin to understand that this physical material world is only one small aspect of our existence, and that is when we begin to understand why God might create a world as you have described above.

[shaberon]

We take this as less of a philosophical mystery, and more of a fact in nature. The inner drive of any being as soon as created is:


Hunger.


And so I can't really answer why that is, I can only answer that it is. Then we harness the force and put it to use.

Here is a parable from Buddha's Enlightenment. There is only one reason he became a Buddha, or, that is, a different kind of enlightened sage than those on other paths. It is because during his extended stay in a cave, someone demanded he come out and:


He ate a blade of grass.


Therefor, we would not see a point in "eliminating" the source of hunger, but, rather, re-directing it to another purpose.

As you can sense in the background, this is pretty similar to the "gnostic" idea that the Creator is *secondary*, and not really worth answering or explaining at all. And so we kind of cease asking the same questions, especially the unanswerable kind, mostly having to do with the vast and complicated nature of creation.

So, I can agree that Gnostics are perhaps similar to us, but, this does not really represent a doctrine or school of exegesis, as it is a blanket term for those beliefs which were pushed out of mainstream thought. On the other hand, there is a fairly clear *and* continuous train of thought still extant in one minor group:


The Mandeans


My suggestion would be the Mandeans derive from a pre-Israelite belief held by David and Solomon, whose only scriptural representation is in Psalms.

It is just slightly after them that this generic, Canaanite-common type of practice was stolen by Elijah, that notorious founder of scripturalism. It is only from there going forward that we get, I would say, a distorted view of an ordinary local protector thrust to the throne of infinity and conflated therewith.

Just for curiosity, whereas the Books of Enoch are classed as Apocrypha, Mandeans take Enoch as a major spiritual functionary.

They have another one, who is reduced to a mere image in scripture, but has been considered the crux of the matter for untold time.

Shem.


Compared to "Gnostic" texts, they are showing something with obviously older "Semitic" roots, which has a defense against whatever changes were ordered by Rabbis. It's not "Jewish Gnosticism" because, while accepting some of the same figures, they specifically reject Abraham and Moses.

This may seem indirect and circumstantial, but the point is, after the bundling of multiple dogmatic assertions, in the wake of the scriptures, we are given a crippled conversation. It can't start on the right step, so, it can hardly walk the right path.

It is dreadful that mundane existence is the near-enemy of Love, in which case it is your or our job to fix it.

[thepainterdoug]

Hi Pam

Why would a loving God, a god who could create any form of energy exchange make a world that requires us to kill each something else to live? Not only that but later I will bring up our "loving god's" digressions if there is any interest in this topic...

So I don't do research, study, google or chat gpt etc when I respond . I only speak from my heart, intuition what I have learned and life experience thus far, be it right or wrong and I do not care to convince anyone.

Most of what I say will come from what I have learned in NDEs. All is how it should be and I feel it has to do with free will. We have to think on the concept of free will.
NDE people say there is nothing to fix, and I do agree this can be hard to understand.

First off. a biological being is a spirit being in a body. If you don't see that than the rest wont make sense.

If there were any limitations on how a biological being could act or be, plant and animal included, then there would be no free will. We are here on a stage to play things out to experience which means to learn as well. So the most drastic of opposites must be on the table. On the stage, the lover and the killer.

Love is only recognized by way of its opposite, Hate. To say you cannot hate too much would have to be equally governed by you cant love to much. The murder or killing of someone is the ultimate in one direction and has its loving opposite.

A loving God is already a concept problem because it would also have to include there is a hateful god, its opposite. So I have arrived at the point that these descriptors are only within our physical existence.

Can you imagine lets say every women in the world was a 21 year old perfect Christie Brinkley looking woman? with a similar man as an equal. Well than this would be a nightmare.
There has to be the opposite to define the beauty.
We have to endure and make lemon aid out of lemons because we are here to grow. ( And beautiful people are not necessarily happy. Many even take their lives.)

As far as animals? I spoke to UFO et experiencer Lou Baldin many years ago. he told me living animals are how humans are provided fresh food . We eat living things, plants included. Water is even sentient.

And pets are just defined by us, no different than fish in a fish tank vrs being in a lake to be fished for. in the lake they are food, in the tank they are a pet.
Different cultures eat different animals. Cats Dogs and all

I often see our spirit to our bodies as radio waves to the radio. All frequencies are present ,yet we decide what frequencies to tune in on. But its all there for us and free will provides us the choice.

[Jeksey]

Hi Pam,

First of all thank you for sharing a piece of your story, it takes courage to do so.

Historical "interpretations" from most parts of humanity about God are wrong. There are no Gods. There is no loving God in that shallow sense of "love" most of humanity has. There is no hateful God as the opposite.

There are higher virtues of consciousness, ripples of energy, that are of service to the field, of service to the galaxy, of service to the planets. The "incarnation" or manifestation of these ripples are found everywhere around us. You mentioned observing the birds. Take a look at how a butterfly flaps its wings. Think about the waves of the oceans arriving at the beach and going back. Aren't those too manifestations of the creative energy? Isn't it a privilege and beauty to be able to witness those, interact with them?

A part of humanity is too a manifestation of those pure creative forces. I am saying "a part of humanity" because not every human soul comes from an origin birthplace. But every human, regardless of origins, possesses the free will to interact however they see fit with the field around them. A pastor taking interest in a 13-year old is not "God's" doing. It is a manifestation of the corruption that humanity has caused on a beautiful planet. Such actions have consequences, causing deliberate harm has consequences.

But again - each human has the free will do interact with the field as they see fit. And one such possible interaction would be sharing with the field that this is harmful, this is not natural. And then leave it to that which is beyond us to take care of it.

Why should we though? Why would "God" not be able to take care of that alone? Why are we needed?

Because, fortunately or not, the pure creative forces are in a natural state of amnesia. Giving selflessly without expecting anything in return. And we, humans, choose to mock this, to insult it, to rape it - to not honor it. Awareness, however, and integral love would be what's needed to quake the field and to declare "This is not in alignment with the love within me".

When bad times fall on you and you are wondering how to approach the problem, ask yourself if what you are about to do is in alignment with the love and the integrity that has grown in you. Ask yourself if what you are about to do is in harmony with the creative forces around you. And if it's not - address that, reflect on it, blossom beautifully out of it into the true direction that your soul is evolving towards.

Nothing requires us to kill something else to live. We have a choice. And, consciously or not, we make this choice every day. Yes, it's difficult. Yes, we are indeed living in horrible and difficult times that pressure us in all kinds of ways to do all kinds of neglectful things. But we still have a choice, free will and faith.

Every time we try to label "God" in any way, we are doing the branches of creation a disservice. You mentioned you've read the texts from Nag Hammadi - I would advise you to study further "The Thunder, Perfect Mind" from the same library. I would also advise you take a look at "Tao Te Ching". Both works would provide a far more eloquent direction of the answer to your questions than I ever could.

No book or writing will truly give you an answer though - the only answer is through yourself.

[thepainterdoug]

jeksey

do we not need to nourish ourselves by way of living food? is water living? plants and so on?

[Jeksey]

Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
jeksey

do we not need to nourish ourselves by way of living food? is water living? plants and so on?

Do trees and plants voluntarily give food the same way creative forces give without expecting in return?

Water is living, yes. Much more than simply living. Sentient, conscious, aware, intelligent. And it too is a manifestation of the creative forces that are of service to the entire planet. We drink water the same way animals do. There's a huge difference between respecting the manifestation of the creative forces and butchering them to make a business out of it.

[thepainterdoug]

so its butchering them and making a business out of it that is the point ? so may different cultures and regions of the world eat animals and various fish, plants.
anyhow, I said what I wanted to say in my post

[Jeksey]

Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
so its butchering them and making a business out of it that is the point ? so may different cultures and regions of the world eat animals and various fish, plants.
anyhow, I said what I wanted to say in my post

All I am saying is that humans have a choice. Making a business out of it isn't necessarily the point though. It's not in harmony with the creative forces around us, that's for sure. And neither is killing animals "not for business".

Every culture has its own process of development. Just because someone is doing something is no justification for us to do the same and shouldn't even be considered when we reflect upon our path. When Buddhists build temples they are very aware and careful to all the little life around them.

I repeat again. Plants voluntarily give fruit. There's no killing here. There's no harm.

[Matthew]

Things that happen here on earth don't happen in Heaven. God gave us free will in His divine wisdom, He gives free will to the greatest and the smallest; even Heavenly angels have free will to ignore God's wishes and marry humans. Spiritually blind, and suckered with endless fake god almighties, we get confused about what God is. Jesus came to set the record straight as the Living Image of our Invisible God, and He's also 'the living Word'. When John 1 says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." it refers to Jesus who is famously in the Bible as the "Living Word of God".

I don't know why God feels free will is so important but He is all-in when He gives something. He doesn't say one thing and do another. Free will is the reason fallen angels can drag us to Hell with them. They appear as angels of light. However despite this peril, and our spiritual blindness, we have Jesus, God Almighty incarnate, to help clarify, take our sin away (repentance willing) and Jesus is God Almighty having a human experience on earth as our brother so we can relate to Him. This isn't for God's benefit, it's the loving nature of God.

The old testament defines what sin is, a standard we all fall short of (except Jesus), and the old books are filled with prophecies prophesying Jesus our salvation from sin. But the terrible things that happen on earth don't happen in Heaven. In the words of Jesus: "I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.". Those evil things are not God, except you could blame God for giving free will, and making existence like this?

Seems unfair for us. However Jesus Christ undermines the fake gods that torcher us, and God gives us crazy divine power in Jesus Christ's name to fight them. I'm not sure people realise the power we have in Jesus Christ's name. God is good. The world is not good. Many things that claim to be God hate us, have it in for us, and while they pretend to be God are not God.

[Mike]

Excellent thread, Pam. I didn't know those things about you and I always love learning about people and hearing their personal stories, above all else. So thanks for sharing that.

My feelings on it all (very distilled) and humbly offered, because what do I know.

But for what it's worth: I think meaning is ultimately found in adventure and risk (some version of the hero's journey) and personal responsibility, and carrying your burdens forthrightly and nobly ("carrying your cross"). That's what many of the Biblical stores are about actually. None of that can be found fully unless everything is on the line at all times, including our mortality (and the mortality of everything around us).

Humans are designed to walk uphill, to carry loads (again, "carry your cross"); without these things we'd get very bored indeed imo.

In fact if God bestowed utopia on us all right now, we'd eventually find some way to destroy it. Because it would rob us of our adventure.

Human nature is adventurous, not utopian. The way I see it, the chaos is evidence that God does care, not that He doesn't

[Rizotto]

Very good question Pam. Humans' biology is based on nurturing their young and their extended family (or tribe). Just a theory here, but is it possible that these concepts of a 'loving god' are simply projection of a human perspective. People have an inherent urge to make sense of their world by projecting their own aspirations in a way that encompasses what they experience in their daily life. The bible had a multitude of references to god as the 'father'. It's definitely a 'tribal' god, as per the bible's many reports of murderous conflicts with other groups that claim a different 'god'.

I was raised as a catholic, but dropped out after I learned of the many horrific violence committed by 'christians' in the name of Jesus or 'god the father'.
At this point I'm deeply irritated by pronouncements of what 'god' supposedly is, or what they claim 'god' wants from us. Seems to me that these preachers have no idea what 'god' is, as their claims often come short of reality.

Personally, the best I can come up with is that there may be some sort of fundamental organizing principle that's manifesting throughout the universe. And that humans aren't yet equipped to understand what that is exactly. Is that the definition of agnosticism? Life is a journey of exploration, inward and outward, and it's best not to get trapped into religious dogma.

Anyway, it seems that offering kindness to other beings, as much as possible, makes life safer and more enjoyable. As in 'treat others as you would like to be treated'. It provides the stability and space to make further enquiries about the true nature of the universe.
Also, true love has the ability to sublimate consciousness into the transcendental. Careful though, about what 'love' really is.

[Antagenet]

Every act is one of sacrifice, every time you give your attention or energy to something or someone it is a sacrifice, you are depleting something in yourself if only your time. The mastery of life is choosing wisely what to give ones attention to, what to feed, what is either worthy enough or challenging enough. This is the life of the real humans among us. About the zombies, the takers and the parasites, Im not so sure. Maybe God didnt even create them, or maybe he made some mistakes.

[Pam]

Posted by Antagenet (here)
Every act is one of sacrifice, every time you give your attention or energy to something or someone it is a sacrifice, you are depleting something in yourself if only your time. The mastery of life is choosing wisely what to give ones attention to, what to feed, what is either worthy enough or challenging enough. This is the life of the real humans among us. About the zombies, the takers and the parasites, Im not so sure. Maybe God didnt even create them, or maybe he made some mistakes.

Ain't that truth.

[Pam]

Posted by Mike (here)
Excellent thread, Pam. I didn't know those things about you and I always love learning about people and hearing their personal stories, above all else. So thanks for sharing that.

My feelings on it all (very distilled) and humbly offered, because what do I know.

But for what it's worth: I think meaning is ultimately found in adventure and risk (some version of the hero's journey) and personal responsibility, and carrying your burdens forthrightly and nobly ("carrying your cross"). That's what many of the Biblical stores are about actually. None of that can be found fully unless everything is on the line at all times, including our mortality (and the mortality of everything around us).

Humans are designed to walk uphill, to carry loads (again, "carry your cross"); without these things we'd get very bored indeed imo.

In fact if God bestowed utopia on us all right now, we'd eventually find some way to destroy it. Because it would rob us of our adventure.

Human nature is adventurous, not utopian. The way I see it, the chaos is evidence that God does care, not that He doesn't

Just too bad we couldn't develop the love interest, just kidding.

[Nasu]

I like the idea of a loving god, it gives me great comfort. It’s also an ideal as we were apparently created in gods image, so something for us all to aspire to in life, not just for those who we have an affinity to, but those who despise us. I like that thought, it helps me be a better person, not always but it’s a great goal.

Saying that, there is quite a plethora of evidence to suggest god is evil, not loving at all. Constant suffering at some point loses its potency and so becomes just what we perceive as our normal life. Pure evil and the corespondent suffering can only be truly experienced when we have small glimpses of happiness, peace, enjoyment, satisfaction, fulfilment, community and love. Therefore the “evil” creator theory suggests we are allowed small tastes of love and happiness in order to make the pain that much more severe.

Evidentially it’s very hard to argue a loving god, for any of creation, from the tiny amoeba on up and throughout the natural world up to and including ourselves. Suffering, pain and the fear of predation and untimely death are shared by all creatures.

That being said, I like the idea and corespondent aspiration of a loving god much better.

But who knows.

Understanding god is a bit like my dog trying to understand the implications of bitcoin……..x……. N

[Jad]

Thanks, Pam, for starting this thread and for sharing your perspective. What I truly appreciate about this forum is the way so many of us converge here with a shared hunger for truth even if we each define it differently. That, in itself, is rare. I don’t take it for granted because in my daily life as a sales manager for one of the big three wireless carriers in the U.S., I see a very different reality.
Every day, I meet people who are just in survival mode working tirelessly just to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table. Even many of my own colleagues are caught in an endless loop of TikTok reels, trending memes, and whatever the algorithm feeds them. Their focus rarely extends beyond what’s viral, what’s on TV, or what circulates on social media. Genuine curiosity about deeper questions about truth, meaning, or the nature of our existence is almost nonexistent.

As for your question, here’s where my own experiences and reflections have led me:

I don’t believe God has much to do with this particular place we call Earth. To me, this feels like a virtual reality like a simulation we enter into by implied consent. Think about it: every single day, billions of people willingly wake up, commute to jobs they dislike, and devote the majority of their waking hours in exchange for little pieces of paper, just numbers on a screen, that another human authority issues. This system only functions because people agree, consciously or unconsciously, to participate in it. If tomorrow, humanity collectively refused to play along, the entire structure would collapse overnight.

Now, apply the same principle to a higher level: as above, so below. Just as we willingly step into the roles and routines of this earthly “game,” souls may be choosing to enter this larger virtual reality. If that’s true, then it makes sense why the real, loving God doesn’t intervene—because from the soul’s perspective, this is a chosen experience, not an imposed one. Just like a player doesn’t want the creator of a video game to interfere mid-level and hand them a shortcut, perhaps we don’t want divine intervention here. We came in to learn, to struggle, to discover, and to awaken through the very challenges that make this place so difficult.
In that sense, Earth isn’t abandoned by God, it’s a realm we willingly step into, knowing that participation comes with both suffering and growth. God simply respects our choice to play out the experience to its fullest.