Why we need Mystery

[Bill Ryan]

Below is a new and thought-provoking presentation from Richard Dolan, which inspired a host of thoughts of my own. His stated thesis wasn't exactly the title of this thread, but it's possible he might not disagree.

Richard has made many long strides in recent years, but in some ways he's still at least a little constrained by western academic (logical, Cartesian*) thinking.

* Cartesian thinking is a logical, step-by-step approach to knowledge based on radical doubt, reason, and the separation of mind and matter. Named after the 17th-century French philosopher René Descartes, it seeks absolute certainty by breaking complex problems down into smaller, simpler parts.

But his presentation, clearly well-prepared but unscripted and highly fluent and articulate, omits one analogy that seems obvious to me: that of the exploration of new lands.

There was almost limitless scope for that in our world even up to 120 years ago. But now almost every square inch of Planet Earth has been visited and mapped.

What has this lost us?

But of course, expanding into the wider universe, scope for the exploration of new worlds is almost infinite. And let's be infinitely thankful for that. Mystery, and unanswered questions, will always be there. And that's surely such a healthy thing for any intelligent species to experience.

Of course, Richard (on his channel) is largely confining the issue of 'Mystery' to the UFO phenomenon. But even though our physical world is almost completely explored and mapped, there are other non-physical mysteries in abundance, many of which are documents on the Avalon forum.

And it's possible that we may not ever get to understand everything.
.
Richard himself gives a wonderful example of exactly this from Ralph Waldo Emerson, in his essay Circles.

https://emersoncentral.com/texts/essays-first-series/circles.

Emerson's analogy to our world of established knowledge and understanding is simple and brilliant. If our understanding is represented by a circle, then the circumference of that circle is the interface between what's understood and what is not.

And therefore when the circle expands... so does the circumference, the interface with the unknown.

After a Lifetime of Mystery, What Remains?

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=xmpLzeyAGAQ

[DNA]

Jason Jorjani states that Renee Descartes was an agent of the Vatican Church tasked with establishing a divide between the burgeoning science studies of the era and the spiritual.
Apparently the Catholic Church wanted a divide where the sciences did not speculate and or pontificate on the spiritual slash mysteries and esoteric.
At the time you had alchemists and all kinds of bleed overs between spiritual and science.
Apparently Descartes was a Jesuit full blown Catholic agent tasked with making sure the sciences discarded and disregarded all things spiritual as such the Catholic Church would not have competition for the souls of man.

I don't know if any of this is true or not but Jorjani was a Harvard professor before being ostracized for doing exactly the thing that we are trying to do here which is finding this common ground between intellectual and spiritual pursuit and not allowing the term conspiracy theorist to curtail your curiosities in certain subjects.

[Ewan]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
And it's possible that we may not ever get to understand everything.

That is almost certain. Frankly we understand almost nothing now.

I would dispute your claim 'But now almost every square inch of Planet Earth has been visited and mapped.'

I'm thinking Amazon, Africa and the depths of the ocean. It is true we have, mostly thanks to hi-def cameras in satellites, mapped the surface of the earth and arrived at conclusions which become standardised responses. But how often do we dig deeper, look beyond the surface. They are still finding mysterious shapes/structures underneath both the Amazon jungles and the ocean. There are also many areas, barely populated today, that reveal signs of previous civilisations - sadly they are largely ignored.

We, as a species, tend to rely on commonly held beliefs/statements. So few of us think independently, question anything. Those that do are such a minority they cannot even crack the ice of dogma.

I will now watch the video above and you may find a substantial edit to what I have offered here.


OK Edit time:

But only to add, everything Richard broke down could also seamlessly apply to the 'bigfoot' question.

He has arrived at an advanced examination of 'thinking'. Something, I confess, I try to avoid these days in the knowledge that every discovery reveals no truth but more questions.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

As Ewan said -- the seafloor, or just the oceans in general, just a fraction of which has been mapped with any resolution, far less by physical human presence. There's a veritable ton of mystery left to be discovered on our own planet, and much of it in those oceans. I don't just refer to marine species yet to be discovered, but, ironically (per the OP) non-terrestrial intelligent life, because I'm quite confident that it's in undersea bases that a lot of these ETs hang out.

Also, history. How many ancient peoples, cultures, perhaps even entire episodes of antediluvian civilization, exist now as undiscovered archaeology under the surface of the oceans, buried under the sand/mud of ages?

[DNA]

I could counter that the state of mystery in a human is the state where we suspend definitions and explanations.
Not indefinitely, but momentarily.

If you can for a moment deactivate your explanation for any given thing and then the world at large, the mystery dawns.
We take it for granted that the world is what we tell ourselves it is.
It is not.
If for a moment we can stop the play of shadows on the cave wall and for a moment peek out at the world for the mystery that it is, a sense of renewal is granted.

Allow your intellect to be rejuvenated by occasionally hitting the on/off switch and as Henry David Thorough commented on the Dawn and Twilight times of the day, to see the mysterious glow of life in all things while not day or night.

The key in this endeavor is learning to turn off the voice inside your head.
The purpose being is that voice is a constant definer, labeler, list creator and world shrinker.
That voice limits your perception and limits your presence by taking you out of the now and always putting you back in the past.

Turn off the voice inside your head, experience the now, experience the mystery.
Turn off the internal dialogue if only for a short while and renew your wonder by witnessing the mystery.

[AutumnW]

Do Cartesians believe in NDE's, reincarnation, or anything beyond the physical. Do they think that without a body you're nothing?

[Heart to heart]

As I once began to understand —

“History is HIS story.

Mystery is MY story!

His story is always written by the victors, and changed to suit the times.

My story arises deep within the soul, unchanging, and is told by the mystics and seers from time immemorial.”

Just my thoughts that bring substance and meaning to my mystical life!

[Raskolnikov]

Posted by Heart to heart (here)
As I once began to understand —

“History is HIS story.

Mystery is MY story!

His story is always written by the victors, and changed to suit the times.

My story arises deep within the soul, unchanging, and is told by the mystics and seers from time immemorial.”

Just my thoughts that bring substance and meaning to my mystical life!

Thank you Heart to heart, like an ancient bell ringing out truth and shattering monsters across the land...

"Today all of these mysteries have lost their force; their symbols no longer interest our psyche. The notion of a cosmic law, which all existence serves and to which man himself must bend, has long since passed through the preliminary mystical stages represented in the old astrology, and is now simply accepted in mechanical terms as a matter of course. The descent of the Occidental sciences from the heavens to the earth (from seventeenth-century astronomy to nineteenth-century biology), and their concentration today, at last, on man himself (in twentieth-century anthropology and psychology), mark the path of a prodigious transfer of the focal point of human wonder. Not the animal world, not the plant world, not the miracle of the spheres, but man himself is now the crucial mystery. Man is that alien presence with whom the forces of egoism must come to terms, through whom the ego is to be crucified and resurrected, and in whose image society is to be reformed. Man, understood however not as “I” but as “Thou”: for the ideals and temporal institutions of no tribe, race, continent, social class, or century, can be the measure of the inexhaustible and multifariously wonderful divine existence that is the life in all of us."

-excerpt from Joseph Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces

[shaberon]

Posted by Mark (Star Mariner) (here)
I don't just refer to marine species yet to be discovered, but, ironically (per the OP) non-terrestrial intelligent life, because I'm quite confident that it's in undersea bases that a lot of these ETs hang out.

One suggestion has been merfolk.

Also, history. How many ancient peoples, cultures, perhaps even entire episodes of antediluvian civilization, exist now as undiscovered archaeology under the surface of the oceans, buried under the sand/mud of ages?

One of those is Dwarka which has possibly been submerged three times.

We have to be careful because a piece of wood from there has been dated to about 7800 B. C. E., but that's a piece of wood. The only one in the ocean? Probably not. And far from an adequate proof that the city would be of that age. More likely it is a late IVC project.

But when I look at some of this stuff like every square inch of the globe, or if aliens are provable, or what might have happened in the life of that piece of wood, I don't really have those questions. The multitude of unknowns out there can remain unknown. I'm fine with that.

I would tend to agree that such Cartesianism is exactly a mission of Dead Souls Science, which could be called Aristotelian, or reductionism, perhaps behavioralism, which is about the details, to the extent I suppose you could have an insatiable thirst for it.

I look at my material existence as conditioned almost exclusively by the earth and the sun, where what we are trying to do is something like an orchestra tuning up its instruments and playing better and better music. So, a wordless condition is desirable at times. Those aren't questions, they may be quests.

The form of matter I found interesting is now up to sixteen kinds of plasma. Speculatively, or theoretically, we have looked at plasma as the agent of consciousness or even life itself to the human being. This and hydrogen technology I would say are superior scientific pursuits that did not exist when I was in school. The output of cosmic imagery is staggering too. I appreciate outer knowledge, but, in a rather blunt way. If a flock of pterodactyls comes down and eats me tomorrow, so be it. I have no response for the hint of threats from the unknown, which seems to be behind most of the social engineering.

[Bill Ryan]

A clarification may be needed!

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
one analogy that seems obvious to me: that of the exploration of new lands.

There was almost limitless scope for that in our world even up to 120 years ago. But now almost every square inch of Planet Earth has been visited and mapped.

Of course, that was a figure of speech. What I was really referring to was the mysteries of global exploration that persisted well into the first quarter of the 20th century.

Those included classic (and often heroic) journeys in Africa to find the source of the Nile, and the Ruwenzori mountains in Uganda, and many explorations in Asia. (In the first British Everest expedition in 2021, George Mallory's team didn't even know how to approach the mountain to try to begin to climb it.) And before that, we had all the exploration of the North-West passage — and on and on and on.

Even recently, there's still a huge (over 100 foot high) 'unknown' waterfall on the Yarlung Tsangpo river in Tibet, long rumored to exist and described in ancient writings by Buddhist monks, but in an almost completely inaccessible location.

The notion of a massive waterfall on a major river that even in the 1990s no westerner had ever seen was remarkable (and kind of magical) to me.

In The World Waterfall Database it even says:

Status: Unconfirmed
This waterfall is likely to exist, but its exact location, stature, and attributes have not yet been determined or confirmed.

The definitive book about this is The Heart of the World: A Journey to Tibet's Lost Paradise, on Amazon here.(In the early 2000s I actually met the author, Ian Baker, and talked with him for several hours when I was considering a journey to Tibet myself.)



~~~

So yes, true 'exploration mysteries' still exist, though there are very few of them now that are not in the deep oceans. (Another such is the search for the long-rumored lost Inca gold, which I'm certain exists but is in an equally inaccessible location deep in the impenetrable forests of Ecuador. The best book about that is Sweat of the Sun, Tears of the Moon: A Chronicle of an Incan Treasure, by Peter Lourie, on Amazon here.)

[Mike Gorman]

Posted by Ewan (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
And it's possible that we may not ever get to understand everything.

That is almost certain. Frankly we understand almost nothing now.

I would dispute your claim 'But now almost every square inch of Planet Earth has been visited and mapped.'

I'm thinking Amazon, Africa and the depths of the ocean. It is true we have, mostly thanks to hi-def cameras in satellites, mapped the surface of the earth and arrived at conclusions which become standardised responses. But how often do we dig deeper, look beyond the surface. They are still finding mysterious shapes/structures underneath both the Amazon jungles and the ocean. There are also many areas, barely populated today, that reveal signs of previous civilisations - sadly they are largely ignored.

We, as a species, tend to rely on commonly held beliefs/statements. So few of us think independently, question anything. Those that do are such a minority they cannot even crack the ice of dogma.

I will now watch the video above and you may find a substantial edit to what I have offered here.


OK Edit time:

But only to add, everything Richard broke down could also seamlessly apply to the 'bigfoot' question.

He has arrived at an advanced examination of 'thinking'. Something, I confess, I try to avoid these days in the knowledge that every discovery reveals no truth but more questions.

In my opinion Epistemology is a much more fruitful line of study than asserting that we know everything, the tributaries of tendencies/bias/political and ideological compulsions inform our assertions more so than absolute knowledge - the limitations of our paradigms are always exposed by the illuminations of history.

[petra]

I’m in some kind of delusion where all the things in my head except for ONE want to understand evil.
The odd one is like “why?” And he’s got a good point!
The rest of us want to understand evil because it’s “a part of who we are”.
For now it’s a mystery.. but I think in time we will understand. Some of them claim to understand already.
The “why?” Guy stands out to me a lot though. Like really.. WHY?
I’m not really sure I can answer that. For me, I guess it’s because I’m obsessed

[DNA]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
A clarification may be needed!

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
one analogy that seems obvious to me: that of the exploration of new lands.

There was almost limitless scope for that in our world even up to 120 years ago. But now almost every square inch of Planet Earth has been visited and mapped.

Of course, that was a figure of speech. What I was really referring to was the mysteries of global exploration that persisted well into the first quarter of the 20th century.

Those included classic (and often heroic) journeys in Africa to find the source of the Nile, and the Ruwenzori mountains in Uganda, and many explorations in Asia. (In the first British Everest expedition in 2021, George Mallory's team didn't even know how to approach the mountain to try to begin to climb it.) And before that, we had all the exploration of the North-West passage — and on and on and on.

Even recently, there's still a huge (over 100 foot high) 'unknown' waterfall on the Yarlung Tsangpo river in Tibet, long rumored to exist and described in ancient writings by Buddhist monks, but in an almost completely inaccessible location.

The notion of a massive waterfall on a major river that even in the 1990s no westerner had ever seen was remarkable (and kind of magical) to me.

In The World Waterfall Database it even says:

Status: Unconfirmed
This waterfall is likely to exist, but its exact location, stature, and attributes have not yet been determined or confirmed.

The definitive book about this is The Heart of the World: A Journey to Tibet's Lost Paradise, on Amazon here.(In the early 2000s I actually met the author, Ian Baker, and talked with him for several hours when I was considering a journey to Tibet myself.)



~~~

So yes, true 'exploration mysteries' still exist, though there are very few of them now that are not in the deep oceans. (Another such is the search for the long-rumored lost Inca gold, which I'm certain exists but is in an equally inaccessible location deep in the impenetrable forests of Ecuador. The best book about that is Sweat of the Sun, Tears of the Moon: A Chronicle of an Incan Treasure, by Peter Lourie, on Amazon here.)

What about the mysteries of finding out we are in a simulation?
Is that a mystery killer or a mystery builder?

What if heroic meditation opened up vistas of consciousness and mythologized elves and nature spirits as described by Edgar Cayce and Rudolph Steiner became visible to you?

What if mini black holes as are being created at Cern and probably other places open up gateway portals into string theory alternate earths?

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by DNA (here)
What about the mysteries of finding out we are in a simulation?
Is that a mystery killer or a mystery builder?

What if heroic meditation opened up vistas of consciousness and mythologized elves and nature spirits as described by Edgar Cayce and Rudolph Steiner became visible to you?

What if mini black holes as are being created at Cern and probably other places open up gateway portals into string theory alternate earths?

Exactly. All the above areas to explore are so, so stimulating and valuable.

Off-topic on this thread, I increasingly do suspect we're all in a kind of holographic simulation which under rare circumstances can be made malleable and be manipulated through consciousness alone. That in itself opens up a vast area of 'mystery' that may never be understood with the science we believe we know.

(My analogy about 'geographical mysteries' was just an illustration of that element of the expansion of the human spirit which has largely been lost as the Earth becomes ever more thoroughly mapped and explored..)

[AutumnW]

Posted by petra (here)
I’m in some kind of delusion where all the things in my head except for ONE want to understand evil.
The odd one is like “why?” And he’s got a good point!
The rest of us want to understand evil because it’s “a part of who we are”.
For now it’s a mystery.. but I think in time we will understand. Some of them claim to understand already.
The “why?” Guy stands out to me a lot though. Like really.. WHY?
I’m not really sure I can answer that. For me, I guess it’s because I’m obsessed

Experience is the best teacher, so probably best not to indulge the "understanding" of evil, in that thorough a manner.

I think that the purest evil is sadism, which is intentionally causing another pain for sport; to relish the feeling of total control.

You could say that the IDF engaged in sadism, evil for sport, just by donning women's underwear after they'd been displaced or bombed out of their homes.

All of the horrid things that happen to Palestinians in prison are evil for sport. Torture for information easily segues into evil for sport, regardless of the laundry list of excuses provided by the abusers.

Most other forms of what people call "evil" are explainable as forms of revenge, often justifiable.

[petra]

Posted by AutumnW (here)

Posted by petra (here)
I’m in some kind of delusion where all the things in my head except for ONE want to understand evil.
The odd one is like “why?” And he’s got a good point!
The rest of us want to understand evil because it’s “a part of who we are”.
For now it’s a mystery.. but I think in time we will understand. Some of them claim to understand already.
The “why?” Guy stands out to me a lot though. Like really.. WHY?
I’m not really sure I can answer that. For me, I guess it’s because I’m obsessed

Experience is the best teacher, so probably best not to indulge the "understanding" of evil, in that thorough a manner.

I think that the purest evil is sadism, which is intentionally causing another pain for sport; to relish the feeling of total control.

You could say that the IDF engaged in sadism, evil for sport, just by donning women's underwear after they'd been displaced or bombed out of their homes.

All of the horrid things that happen to Palestinians in prison are evil for sport. Torture for information easily segues into evil for sport, regardless of the laundry list of excuses provided by the abusers.

Most other forms of what people call "evil" are explainable as forms of revenge, often justifiable.

I’ve never heard of evil for sport used before anywhere. How sickening!

As for understanding evil, not sure why it’s so important to me. It feels like my “life’s mission” and I don’t think I’ll just give up. Maybe it’s better as a mystery for some people, but not for me. I’m not the only one, I’m sure other people must feel the same they are just few and far between.

It’s not as if I’m immersing myself in it, I’m just asking myself a lot of questions. Like for example “do you need to experience evil in order to understand it”. I said probably, but one of the other ones said “of course not”. I don’t know if I’m ready to experience evil. I mean, I’d rather not.

[The KMan]

Maybe we need mystery because it gives us something to reach for. If everything were known, mapped and explained, curiosity and wonder would slowly fade.

The old geographical frontiers may have largely disappeared but the unknown has not. It has moved into questions about consciousness, our origins and the nature of reality.

Mystery keeps us searching and it also keeps certainty in its place.

[Raskolnikov]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
There was almost limitless scope for that in our world even up to 120 years ago. But now almost every square inch of Planet Earth has been visited and mapped.

About 120 years ago, in the United States at least, the military or some other arm of the authorities like the Smithsonian would arrive at any unusual and off-script discoveries and take immediate jurisdiction over those discoveries for “reasons of national security” or some other such absurd reason to prohibit anyone else from further exploring or studying such unique finds. The Grand Canyon discoveries of G.E. Kinkaid published in the Phoenix Gazette in 1909 comes to mind,

https://thephoenixenigma.com/origina...stery-article/



wherein were found mummies, copper instruments, sharp-edged and hard as steel, and many urns and stone tablets covered in hieroglyphics. Couple this with the many isolated rock formations named after Egyptian and Hindu gods,

Sheba Temple, The Tabernacle, Rama Shrine, Vishnu Temple, Krishna Shrine, Ottoman Amphitheater, Zoroaster Temple, Brahma Temple, Thor Temple, Solomon Temple, Jupiter Temple, Shinumo Altar, Shinumo Amphitheater, Wotan Temple, Angels Gate, Temple Deva, Manu Temple, Buddha Temple, Isis Temple, Shiva Temple, Cheops Pyramid, Tower of Set, Hindu Amphitheater, Tower of Ra, Horus Temple, Confucius Temple, Mencius Temple, Tower of Bable, Holy Grail Temple, King Arthur Castle, Guinevere Castle, Lancelot Point, Galahad Point

and the evolutionary theory of isolationism begins to fall apart while the mystery begins to unfold.

https://dailyoddsandends.wordpress.c...yptian-relics/


Another location of great mystery is that of the dense jungles of South America such as the Amazon. Older publications tell of explorers discovering great stone cities of colossal proportions some with roads paved in gold and magnificent statuary of unknown figures lost to time. These unknown cities are so difficult and treacherous to reach that most don’t make it back alive due to the harsh climate, unforgiving terrain, fierce Indian tribes, many cannibalistic, as well as countless other poisonous critters, not to mention whatever else may be hidden within such inhospitable jungles.

But there's one thing that has always stuck with me after reading these books, something that lit a fire in my mind ever since. It has to do with an eternal light that never goes out. I’m including the first few paragraphs of this excerpt from Secret Cities of Old South America, by Harold T. Wilkins, as an example of the “whatever else my be hidden within such inhospitable jungles” while the eternal light is in the last paragraph.

There is a Matto Grosso Indian tradition, still extant, about a great and very ancient white ruler of old Brazil, who was a great cacique ruling over ten other chiefs of vassal tribes. This sounds remarkably like an echo of the ten kings who periodically met and held state councils and religious festivals in the great golden temple of Poseidonian Atlantis. (Vide Plato's Dialogues of Timseus and Critias.) The same Indians of the Matto Grosso and the Goyaz, as well as down south in the state of Sao Paulo, have traditions that a great cataclysm forced their ancestors to quit the shores of an ancient Maranon-Amazon basin, where were located great cities of shining white stone ruled over by powerful white chiefs, in a very far day. Even to-day, these Indians have a tradition that, in the western Matto Grosso, as it now is, and on the site of the Gran Chaco of forests and swamps that borders Paraguay, western Brazil and Bolivia—home, by the way, of at least one great monster of an amphibian dinosaur, called the "buey jagua"—there was a prehistoric sea called 0 Xarayes. This name is borne by one Indian tribe in the upper reaches of the Paraguay, contacted, in 1723, by Capitao Antonio Pires de Campos, and called by him "o gentio Saraye^'. The waters of this prehistoric sea, said to be older than the rise of the Andes, laved the slopes of the old Brazilian Highlands, on which the great megalithic cities were located, and extended a good way southwards to what is now the Argentina.

A correspondent of mine, in Sao Paulo, tells me that it is known there, by certain people, that, in the 1900's, when Colonel Fawcett was delimiting the frontiers of eastern Peru, Bolivia and Brazil, he reached the country of the formidable Nhambiquaras. These Indians are the subject of jokes among other Indian tribes in Brazil, by reason of the abnormal size of their virile organ! They are powerfully built and dark in hue and may be descendants of the very ancient black aborigines of South America. They are definitely of Stone Age culture.

Fawcett was told by a cacique of the Nhambiquaras that a megalithic ancient city lay east of their country, towards the head-waters of the Rio Xingu. This dead city was hemmed in by a belt of very dense forests, beset with the fierce Suyas, a tribe of very savage Indians. The cacique gave to Fawcett, one is told, a pebble carved in intaglio with a figure of a sandalled man wearing a sort of ancient Roman toga. It was very ancient. Other stones were incised with letters like those found in a.d. 1745, by the old bandeiristas who entered another dead Atlantean-Hy Brazilian, considerably to the east of the Xingu country.

These ruins of the Nhambiquara cacique are said to be in a plain encircled with a range of blue mountains, and with dense jungles and forests coming up to the massive walls. There are moats and massive paved stone causeways and streets. It is ,very reminiscent of the dead city described in my Mysteries of Ancient South America. There were also tales of monstrous animals in this region, some of dinosaur type wallowing in reedy lakes, and others oddly like the King Kong ape, of the late Edgar Wallace's fantasy, ten or twelve feet high, with human-like hands instead of opposed thumbs.

Albert de Winton—it is uncertain whether this luckless gentleman was a British or an American citizen, for he lived, at one time, in Hollywood, California—died of. poison slipped into his fruit-drink, by treacherous Indians of an aIdeia bordering the land of these very Suyas. De Winton was then (about 1934) searching for a solution of the Fawcett mystery, and he had reached the fringes of the Suyas forests. My Sao Paulo correspondent says it is believed that poor de Winton left manuscripts that have fallen into private hands in Cuyaba. In one paper, de Winton told of meeting an Indian who had escaped from his savage custodians of Suyas, by whom he had been held captive, and who are guardians of the strange dead city. This Indian spoke of a stone tower of very ancient and massive construction, from which, day and night, there shines an eternal light. It is very bright, and whatever form of physical energy or chemiluminescence be used in this light, it seems one unknown to modern illuminating engineers.

And here’s another form of this eternal light referred to as perpetual lamps. I believe what always stuck with me about these eternal lights, as it says in the footnote below, was that they were a symbol of the immortal spirit, the light that never goes out. I didn’t realize it at the time but it’s a beautiful metaphor, not only the metaphysical metaphor of an immortal spirit but also the thought of our ancient ancestors, these keepers of the knowledge, hiding in cities of a once great civilization, now covered in dense jungle, keeping the flame alive until we’re ready to receive it again.

Investigating field-workers in Colombia have found in certain ancient sites of races unknown indications that these ancient men may have possessed knowledge of some form of illumination very like that of our modern electric current. In the jungle of the Matto Grosso, as an Indian told Colonel P. H. Fawcett in the frontier township of Cuyaba, there are, and have existed for ages, known to and seen by himself—the Indian and his Indian forbears, strange, fixed lights. This singular light, age by age, untended, shines out of the window openings in tall buildings, shrouded in dense forest, of ancient dead cities of Atlantean Brazil. It seems to be some form of cold light energy, possibly a type of fire-fly luminescence, multiplied by many candle- power, which is unknown to modern physicists. (A footnote was placed here and is inserted below)

So-called "perpetual lamps" are said to have been known to the Romans, and Bailey's Philologos speaks of them. There was the one found burning in the tomb of Tullia, daughter of Cicero, on the Appian Way, temp., Pope Paul III. It had burnt for 1,550 years, but the opening of the sepulchre caused the light to go out. In Egypt, they are also said to have been known and used in tombs and sepulchres. Kircher's CEdipi JEgyptiaci Theatrum Hieroglyphicum also mentions them. Plutarch says he saw one in the temple of Jupiter Ammon where the priests told him it had been alight continuously for years, standing in the open where wind nor water could put it out. Old Memphis's temple is said to have had many such lamps, regarded as the symbol of the immortal spirit, which was distinct from the soul, which was only semi-immortal. Kedrenus says he saw one such lamp at Edessa, Syria, where, hidden on top of a gate, it had burnt for 500 years. Such lamps are said to have been known in Tibet, where the Abb£ Hue said he saw one ; and at Travan- core (Trevandrum), India, by a London missioner. "Oiliness of gold", reduced to a fluid which reabsorbs the oily fluid and gives it out again, with a reaction of light, is alleged to "explain" the luminescence, which also seems to have been connected with maintenance of a near-vacuum. Modern science knows of the "cold light" produced by luciferin and a catalyst called luciferase. This system is not "perpetual" and needs reactivation with hydrogen. How the firefly reactivates its own "cold light" none know. But no form of known chemiluminescence will last indefinitely without renewal or attention. The autoluminescence of radioactivity, which, theoretically, should last for one thousand years, means death to human beings exposed to the bombardment of the rays. Also, electroluminescence, such as the neon light, or the sodium vapour lamp, radiates only in one or two particular wave-lengths, such as red or deep yellow, is extremely expensive, and certainly not "perpetual". The ancient world of South America, as also that of old Egypt, possessed some secret we do not know. It would seem that these lights, once started, could never be put out. —Author.

[Casey Claar]

Bill,

I just finished listening in to Richard's talk. ( I listen to most all of them )

He really does continue to amaze me, the more I listen to what he has to say - this last talk has to be one of my favorites.

So well said and the subject SO well moved through. Everyone absolutely has to listen beginning to end.

I have nothing interesting to add on the subject -at the moment. I just wanted to say this.


Casey

[The KMan]

A reflection and refinement prompted by Richard Dolan

I went back over Richard Dolan’s reflection more slowly and found myself paying less attention to his conclusions about UFOs and more attention to the methodology he has arrived at after more than 30 years of living with the subject. Towards the end he draws together several lessons. Knowledge can be real without being complete. Distrust by itself is not a method. Institutions can conceal truth but those challenging them can also deceive themselves. Richard’s warning also made me look back at my own position. I need to remain open without allowing that openness to become an excuse to believe everything. I also need to recognise when my own search for truth becomes tied to identity, belonging or vindication.

As I listened, I found myself making notes alongside the Five Gate Test I had posted in June 2026.

The symmetry rule. Richard applies much the same caution to the official account, the believer and the sceptic. Government concealment does not make every alternative true.

Gate 1: Coherence. His description of a larger theory becoming another shell around uncertainty was a reminder that a more elaborate explanation is not necessarily a truer one.

Gate 2: Correspondence with the evidence. He separates documents, witness testimony, inference and speculation rather than treating them as equal. This is where his point that distrust is not a method struck me most strongly. The particular claim and its evidence still have to be examined.

Gate 3: Correspondence with the future. This was where I found less overlap. Richard does not spend much time on what a theory predicted in advance or whether anyone kept score.

Gate 4: Correspondence over time. His warning about methods changing when facts become inconvenient goes directly to whether a theory is still learning or merely protecting itself.

Gate 5: Incentives. This was the part that led me to revise my original wording. I had mainly focused on visible incentives such as money, status, audience or access. Richard’s comments about identity, belonging, certainty and vindication point to something less visible.

I have now reframed the wider question for Gate 5 as: What does continued belief protect or provide?

I have also added an important caution. External incentives can often be checked. A person’s inner investment usually cannot. I may be able to recognise it honestly in myself. When I apply it to someone else, it remains a hypothesis and must never substitute for testing the claim itself.

Richard also returns several times to holding conclusions at different levels of confidence. This has led me to add a closing discipline after the five gates. I now finish the test by stating plainly what the evidence establishes, what can reasonably be inferred, what remains speculative and what is still unknown.

The two approaches cover much of the same ground but not all of it. Richard goes further into what living with an unresolved mystery does to the person asking the questions. Gate 3 adds a practical check that his talk does not dwell on.

What I came away with was not that Richard had confirmed the Five Gate Test but that listening closely to him had shown me where it could be improved. I have now made those changes. For those interested, here is the link: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/sho...50#post1725050