The case for Christ

[58andfixed]

Thanks RedeZra:

So, aside from "hell" being mentioned in the Vedas, the OT, but not in the NT, and nothing Jesus said gave any specifics about what "hell" is, it seems to me that anything anyone 'believes' about "hell" is more than likely just an opinion.

I had purposed to gain insight on your understanding of "evil," yet you digress into entities: "God's devil" and "a Cherub." I do make distinction between "evil" and "beings that are evil."

I lack a comprehension of your perspective on "evil" alone, and perhaps you could relate "evil" to humans, if you care to.

Also, I'd be interesting in a narrative of how a "First Source that is loving" when building The Universe, designs in a place or process called "hell." It has never fit to me, and while I do know people refer to "hell," not one single person has been capable of any narration of any kind of rhyme nor reason that hasn't been a concoction, much less with any reference to some scriptural source anywhere.

You might be the first, and I am open to it. Just that I doubt it, given the history of my attempts.

- 58

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by 58andfixed (here)
Where do you believe "evil" comes from, and why do you believe "evil" exists ?

I'm curious to see any references of "hell," including books outside of any Bible, to sustain your perspective as well.

Personally, "hell" doesn't fit in with a First Source that is loving and trusts us to make uncoerced Free Will Choices.

evil is God's devil and a Cherub who chose to fall

hell is mentioned by the Buddha and in the Vedas

and hell fits with a a First Source that is loving and just as well

[Krullenjongen]

Posted by music (here)
To illustrate a point, please let me draw everyone's attention to the "tag cloud" at the bottom of this thread: atheist, christianity, discovery, jesus, journey. I mean you no disrespect Krullenjongen, and this may well have been unconscious on your part, but what you are saying here is that there is the journey of Jesus discovery that is Christianity, and there is atheism. Now you may well believe that, and that is your right, which I respect, but from there, it is but a short philosophical step to the worst excesses of intolerance.

Intolerance and disrespect of another's beliefs is counter to the Love of Jesus, and anyone who can't see that, does not know Jesus.

No offence taken.
I just wanted to describe what this video was all about.
It is about an ATHEIST who comes in contact with CHRISTIANITY, he goes on a research mission of DISCOVERY about JESUS and this is his JOURNEY.

I totally agree that Intolerance and disrespect of another's beliefs is counter to the Love of Jesus.
Did i somewhere display these traits?

[music]

Posted by Krullenjongen (here)

Posted by music (here)
To illustrate a point, please let me draw everyone's attention to the "tag cloud" at the bottom of this thread: atheist, christianity, discovery, jesus, journey. I mean you no disrespect Krullenjongen, and this may well have been unconscious on your part, but what you are saying here is that there is the journey of Jesus discovery that is Christianity, and there is atheism. Now you may well believe that, and that is your right, which I respect, but from there, it is but a short philosophical step to the worst excesses of intolerance.

Intolerance and disrespect of another's beliefs is counter to the Love of Jesus, and anyone who can't see that, does not know Jesus.

No offence taken.
I just wanted to describe what this video was all about.
It is about an ATHEIST who comes in contact with CHRISTIANITY, he goes on a research mission of DISCOVERY about JESUS and this is his JOURNEY.

I totally agree that Intolerance and disrespect of another's beliefs is counter to the Love of Jesus.
Did i somewhere display these traits?

No, I think you have initiated a useful discourse on the similarities of faith, rather than the differences. Thank you.

[58andfixed]

Thanks again Krullenjongen for having made the OP, introduced this video and offering your summary.

I don't agree with the selective manipulation of the argument in the video, however having been down this road so many times in so many other places, I know the excessive amount of time & energy it consumes from me to point out the weakness of the argument, flaws of logic, and disconnect of the conclusions made from the issues raised.

I initially chose the perceived path, for this thread, of selecting from the posts in reply to the OP, those OPINIONS that do not reflect the tie between an 'accurate Bible,' the obvious need for an 'Organized Religion,' [aka Church], and the variant list of Doctrines that goes with each of the 33,000+ Denominations of Christianity, hidden under the guise of 'whether Christ existed.'

However, these beliefs that I hold, which came about through the paths of having walked the pits of fire myself, including both reading and studying various Bibles, belonging to two ideologies, as well as studying material that delves into the contextual problems. I have read and studied much material outside of Bibles as well, so I have a rather unique bias to offer here.

I recognize that this is a highly emotionally charged issue, and from one instant where I use certain words and accumulate friends, it takes but one more post where I use other words and people REACT with strong emotion, most likely only because it simply conflicts with some particular belief they cling onto, and there is often little to support that, other than that sacred belief is common to the circle of people that congregate together.

So in the one instance, where there are meaningful values to extract from the social benefit in the local sense, that same set of beliefs will be counter to another, and the entire 'Judeo-Christian' mind-set is so subdivided as to bring serious question to the validity of any Bible, or any one of the various denominations of Christianity.

The why of this ease of divisibility seem to be rooted in tools of social engineering for conformity, even though a good thought that would counter the "Intolerance and disrespect of another's belief is counter to the Love of Jesus" argument could be extracted from any number of citations. Here's just four:

1. Proverbs 27:17 (KJV) "Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend."


2. Mark 12:38-40 (KJV)

And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

3. Luke 20:45-47 (KJV)

Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples, Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts; Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

4. Matthew 23:1-36 (KJV)

All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
... <more from the chapter> ...

I select these point of reference, because I make an assumption from the bias of the material, these are points of reference that have meaning for you that are simply missing from the argument made. I prefer to avoid other points of reference that would sustain my perspective, because this would entertain a much longer dialog and likely introduce yet additional points of resistance.

*****


What I summarize from the video, is that a couple who were ATHEIST at the time of marriage, appeared to be headed towards division, because the wife had a change of heart for what she wanted to believe. The husband, a journalist and Biblical skeptic, finally found reasons to accept a belief that was similar enough to his wife to bring about harmony in their relationship.

The husband rationalized his discoveries, just as many ordinary humans do, and the process of examining evidence and conclusion does not anywhere near approach process of peer-reviewed science publications, or what one would expect in a court of law, although the video makes a strong implication that this is what is done.

The bias is so thorough, that in other arenas would be called propaganda -- the framing of a conclusion to be reached is done by the selection of issues to be considered, and excluding relevant opposite perspectives.

Peppered throughout the video, other people interject their opinions from a variety of sources that supports the belief for Jesus, and in this process assume some DOCTRINE peculiar to their denomination, that many of which would run counter to a secular scholar on any one of a number of beliefs.

So I would expect anyone who has already decided to believe in Jesus, and is leaning towards going to a Church, will "buy the storyline." Anyone who has already decided that they have experiences of division, hypocrisy under the guise of Organized Religion, perhaps even revulsion from studying history of Religious Wars, won't even bother watching the entirety of the video.

Thus this would be standard Church propaganda that only supports continued division under the banner of "We Are For Christ," but any newcomers must also accept these additional doctrines -- which conflict with other people's opinions.

I take the time to do these very extended posts, which I normally have a distaste for, to detail much more the distinction that is best to make between "God, Bibles and Organized Religion."

I take it as an assumption in life that there is a First Source [aka God] for this explains much for me, and purposes me to live life like few others.

After a most thorough examination of Bibles, Organized Religion and some additional Doctrines that seem to reflect more the contrivance of mens minds than anything that reflects a much more simple, harmonious, nondivisive reality that was likely intended by The First Source, are more likely either a subversion of Lucifer, malevolence on the part of mortals and simple ignorance [people don't know what they don't know].

I think there is an innate desire to socialize for people that is a very good function indeed. Where the problem arises, particularly under the guise of some good intent, is when division is instigated. Particularly more repulsive to me, is when false ideas are contrived that keeps us divided.

I think much is to be gained, particularly during these troubling days, from understanding the advantages for the removal of created lines of division, and examining the past as well as current structures that contribute to dis-functionality, and to resolve to choose unity over conformity. The pursuit of truth over the letting go of false personal ideas that divide us, and the letting go of which causes great emotional grief.

In this perspective, I must be respectful, however I will not allow for the misdirection of my intent to challenge poorly vetted beliefs that appear faulty to simply call my efforts "Intolerant and Disrespectful" when what my efforts are more accurately described as a challenge to someone else's loose & sloppy thinking -- and either adds to, or creates a divide between men that would be best to be eliminated, and not clung to in a sacrosanct manner at all costs.

I hope this helps to counter the insinuating posts, and propensity for onlookers to spin my intent in a direction I had not intended.

My intent is to not develop an argument and win it.

My intent is to help posters examine ideas and beliefs that I deem faulty, from past examination for my own satisfaction, to a point where either I learn and broadened my beliefs that will reflect less division, or perhaps the other may reflect a belief that will reflect less division -- and that may not happen for years, if ever.

There is everything to gain from deep examination, and nothing to be lost for sharpening the countenance of each other.

Certainly, being able to comfortably socialize under the context of a "First Source" as a given, with the least potential for divisibility, I believe, to be a latent and potential force that will blow the minds of any Organized Religion -- however that will require a lot of 'unlearning' of faulty ideas.

Labeling countering opinions as intolerant and disrespectful simply to endorse 'the method of Political Correctness,' is itself a false idea that disrespects the potential for removing lines drawn in the sand.

The socially engineered idea that "you can believe what you want to believe, and I can believe what I want to believe" is a core seed to the current paradigm of divisibility.

One idea that can break this log-jam of division will be to be willing to deeply examine all of our individual beliefs, to determine which ones contribute to division. After this becomes a widespread and acceptable perspective, I believe civilization then has the potential to collaborate on solutions for "The Problem" and the symptoms that have been created out of division.

- 58

Posted by Krullenjongen (here)
I just wanted to describe what this video was all about.
It is about an ATHEIST who comes in contact with CHRISTIANITY, he goes on a research mission of DISCOVERY about JESUS and this is his JOURNEY.

I totally agree that Intolerance and disrespect of another's beliefs is counter to the Love of Jesus.

[RedeZra]

Posted by 58andfixed (here)
Also, I'd be interesting in a narrative of how a "First Source that is loving" when building The Universe, designs in a place or process called "hell." It has never fit to me, and while I do know people refer to "hell," not one single person has been capable of any narration of any kind of rhyme nor reason that hasn't been a concoction, much less with any reference to some scriptural source anywhere.

free will is a fantastic gift but it comes with a catch


God is Holy and has Standards

and we are not without advice or warning

about the consequences of our choices


hell was designed for the devil and his angels

but those who do the work of the devil will have to spend time with him in hell


which is a place for evil as real as heaven and earth

because Jesus spoke of it and Buddha too and all the saints

besides there are testemonies from Near Death Experiences


the Ten Commandments are for us to know the difference between right and wrong

so nobody can play idiot and say "i didn't know"


we do know right from wrong

and right goes up while wrong goes down

[58andfixed]

Thanks RedeZra.

One things most embroiled in any one of the Organized Religions seem to enjoy, is focusing on FEAR, and are complicit in a "hell" on Earth.

"You're Gonna Get Your Mind Right"

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=fPOebwXI0gA

https://youtube.com/watch?v=fPOebwXI0gA

2m 5s 3,936 views

Clip from "Cool Hand Luke."

BTW.... in your congregation, does God hate fags too ?

http://www.godhatesfags.com/



As I have it, they use the same book.

- 58

Posted by RedeZra (here)

hell was designed for the devil and his angels

but those who do the work of the devil will have to spend time with him in hell

which is a place for evil as real as heaven and earth

[RedeZra]

Posted by 58andfixed (here)
BTW.... in your congregation, does God hate fags too ?

i belong to the Christ and not a church


if it is not found in the Ten Commandments then it is maybe a minor offense


anyway we all fall short of the Glory of God

but we just have to keep our hearts warm with Him in our minds

and He will speak manifest guide and guard

[Centauro]

I Can't figure this one out....

The majority of Christian's (not all) are so obsessed within their rituals, symbolism, repetitive prayers, and their narrow minds in understanding the meaning of Chris's presence that they get lost in their own view. The Atheists, well I won't even go there, and then is the rest of us. When one mentions Christ you are look at like if you a carrying a decease or some crap like that.

All I see is the message.

Isn't that enough?

An open mind is a estate of being, and if you put barriers at its core you are cheating yourself.


Roland

[panopticon]

Posted by RedeZra (here)
i belong to the Christ and not a church
if it is not found in the Ten Commandments then it is maybe a minor offense
anyway we all fall short of the Glory of God
but we just have to keep our hearts warm with Him in our minds
and He will speak manifest guide and guard

G'day RedeZra,

I see no glory in the God you revere.
As an individual you are free to proclaim reverence for the male personification of your choice if you so wish.
I disagree with your statements, however support your right to express them.
I await your usual succinct reply.

Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[panopticon]

G'day Centauro,

I agree with much that you have said.
The reliance on ritual, the lack of understanding, the glorification of a patriarchal figure, the reliance on a collection of texts of dubious origins...
I too see nothing wrong with messages like "care for others" and many other statements that are useful for co-existence, norm regulation, and cohesion in society. It is when these messages are taken and twisted (as 58andfixed expressed above) that control and power manipulation come into play.

Many Australians have an aversion to what is colloquially referred to here (and else where I believe) as "God Botherers". I reckon this comes from a healthy distrust of authority in general. I, however, have spent many happy hours in discussion with pastors, priests, Mormon and JW Elders, and persons from many other beliefs and learnt much from them all. I must confess that I have never had the opportunity to speak with a Mufti or Imam so I am largely ignorant of the subtleties of the Islamic traditions.

I completely agree with your statement:
'An open mind is a estate of being, and if you but barriers at its core you are cheating yourself.'

Beautifully said.

Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by panopticon (here)
G'day Centauro,

I agree with much that you have said.
The reliance on ritual, the lack of understanding, the glorification of a patriarchal figure, the reliance on a collection of texts of dubious origins...
I too see nothing wrong with messages like "care for others" and many other statements that are useful for co-existence, norm regulation, and cohesion in society. It is when these messages are taken and twisted (as 58andfixed expressed above) that control and power manipulation come into play.

Many Australians have an aversion to what is colloquially referred to here (and else where I believe) as "God Botherers". I reckon this comes from a healthy distrust of authority in general. I, however, have spent many happy hours in discussion with pastors, priests, Mormon and JW Elders, and persons from many other beliefs and learnt much from them all. I must confess that I have never had the opportunity to speak with a Mufti or Imam so I am largely ignorant of the subtleties of the Islamic traditions.

I completely agree with your statement:
'An open mind is a estate of being, and if you but barriers at its core you are cheating yourself.'

Beautifully said.

Kind Regards,
Panopticon

If you want to discuss islam, go to one of the mosques and speak with the imam.
They are usually happy to talk to you.
Don't be surprised if they try hard to convert you.

[panopticon]

G'day Lord Sidious,

When I had the chance I was too busy.
There ain't no Mosques in Tassie, at least not within 100k of here anyway.
Close as I could get is a prayer hall (not the same).
I usually enjoy nattering with "moderates" as they tend to be able to hold a conversation without conversion.
I don't bother with conservatives (fundamentalists) as it tends to end in their raised voices.

Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[Centauro]

Hey Panopticon, thank you for your comments on my post...was gonna do it through your page, but you don't allow messages. Anyway, love your point of view as well.

"If all the eyes could see..."


Roland el Centauro

[Beren]

Posted by Centauro (here)
I Can't figure this one out....

The majority of Christian's (not all) are so obsessed within their rituals, symbolism, repetitive prayers, and their narrow minds in understanding the meaning of Chris's presence that they get lost in their own view. The Atheists, well I won't even go there, and then is the rest of us. When one mentions Christ you are look at like if you a carrying a decease or some crap like that.

All I see is the message.

Isn't that enough?

An open mind is a estate of being, and if you put barriers at its core you are cheating yourself.


Roland

Message is the core.

And message is ~Love your neighbor as yourself~Love God with all your heart ,soul ,mind and strength~

What ever people do in effort to discredit Christ in any conceivable way will just make things wrong for them since you can`t beat the message!

We hear bashing and trashing, was he there or not, did he didn`t he, an impostor ,liar,demon worshiper,NWO puppet, an ET, Maitreya ,Sananda, and might be a little Johnny from the corner...

Message still stands clear as a bright sunny day, engraved into consciousness field of eternity and us- Love your neighbor as yourself and before all Love God with all your heart,soul,mind and strength~

While we as humanity quarrel about above quoted things , our world is suffering and we along with it. Animal and plant realms are dying rapidly because of our fallen conscience and all that Christ was doing was and is lifting up our consciousness to remember that we are of God just like he is.

Now go ahead and doubt in Christ , he wouldn`t mind ...BUT for your own sake do love a little...

[Centauro]

Message is the core.

And message is ~Love your neighbor as yourself~Love God with all your heart ,soul ,mind and strength~

What ever people do in effort to discredit Christ in any conceivable way will just make things wrong for them since you can`t beat the message!

We hear bashing and trashing, was he there or not, did he didn`t he, an impostor ,liar,demon worshiper,NWO puppet, an ET, Maitreya ,Sananda, and might be a little Johnny from the corner...

Message still stands clear as a bright sunny day, engraved into consciousness field of eternity and us- Love your neighbor as yourself and before all Love God with all your heart,soul,mind and strength~

While we as humanity quarrel about above quoted things , our world is suffering and we along with it. Animal and plant realms are dying rapidly because of our fallen conscience and all that Christ was doing was and is lifting up our consciousness to remember that we are of God just like he is.

Now go ahead and doubt in Christ , he wouldn`t mind ...BUT for your own sake do love a little...

Thank you for your beautifully put point Baren....

Here is another thing that I don't understand....

As far as I know he is the only one in history who accomplished that thing that you all talk about here and want... A complete and total ascension in to a higher estate of being, physically and spiritually by the resurrection of his body (I call it spontaneous evolution) .

Isn't that what we all want?
Then why deny the story and the message?
Has any other man in history died for all us to show us by example on what needs to be given?

Please enlighten me ?


Roland

[58andfixed]

Thanks for collaborating on this thread Beren:

That message is the one most often repeated and seems to drown out another message that brings to bear a much elevated standard, ignored or forgotten for some reason.

John 13:34 (KJV) "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." aka the WWJD idea.

This reference suggests a more humbler approach of ones' judgment of self, and what to expect of ones' own level of tolerance or self-expectation for a standard of morals and ethics.

Maybe the subjective level of my (our) quality of standard creates division, and if humbly approaching what to do to another was a standard I required to explore, study and contemplate to discover the quality of a Master, perhaps my judgment may come to a slower conclusion ?

I find it odd that the "average Christian" most often refers to the lower standard "as you would expect yourself to be treated," versus the rarely refereed to "As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

The next question could be: "are Church Authorities cherry picking through a Bible to deceive the congregation of a lower standard of acceptance - a malevolent intent, or mere theological ignorance" ?

I'm interesting in adding this seemingly forgotten passage to resurrect an awareness of the higher standard set by Jesus, one of many Masters.

I believe as a non-Church going, anti-Organized Religionist, anti-Biblical reliant, fully accepting of a First Source, truth seeker and desiring the erasing of division among ourselves, that this is a key discernment.

To fulfill my self-description in terms that could be commonly understood, I refer to my belief as Gnostic.

I'd be interested in your feedback.

- 58

Posted by Beren (here)

And message is

~Love your neighbor as yourself~

Love God with all your heart ,soul ,mind and strength~

[Centauro]

Can't resist but to post again hehe....

Posted by 58andFixed

Where do you believe "evil" comes from, and why do you believe "evil" exists ?
I'm curious to see any references of "hell," including books outside of any Bible, to sustain your perspective as well.
Personally, "hell" doesn't fit in with a First Source that is loving and trusts us to make uncoerced Free Will Choices.

I tend to believe that at the time of creation or big bang or whatever you wanna call it, all opposites were created as well. Why do I say this? Well look at the universe Light/Dark - Matter/Antimatter - Creation/Destruction Good/Evil etc. and also that anything is possible in this universe of ours. Don;t we imagine and create all the time? Look at art for example.

As far as Hell is concern, you are right 58andfixed, it doesn't fit with the first source at all. But to me Hell is not a place that you are sent to for the "punishment of your sins". Hell is also a estate of being that anyone can choose to go to because of our free will. Christ did talk about it a few times, but I believe he was referring at that choice. One has to be very careful with the bible because all the translations and the manipulations that were done to it by the so call church around 300A.D. and in the middle ages in order to manipulate the masses. History is full of them.

If a person chooses to be destructive, evil, enjoying the hurt he/she inflicts on others, then that is the estate of being that he/she will have forever, and not because a punishment from the source.

Well this is my view


Roland el Centauro

[panopticon]

Posted by Centauro (here)
Here is another thing that I don't understand....
As far as I know he is the only one in history who accomplished that thing that you all talk about here and want... A complete and total ascension in to a higher estate of being, physically and spiritually by the resurrection of his body (I call it spontaneous evolution) .
Isn't that what we all want?
Then why deny the story and the message?
Has any other man in history died for all us to show us by example on what needs to be given?
Please enlighten me ?

G'day Centauro,

I'm short on time at the moment so please excuse my brevity.
In the "immortality traditions" of Daoism the practice of attaining similar as what is represented in the biblical stories by the Christ figure is well known.
Similar practices are also known within Buddhist traditions (notably some Tibetan sects use dzogchen (atiyogic) practices to attain the "rainbow body") amongst others.
An interesting article comparing the Daoist Immortality tradition and the Christian transfiguration/resurrection/ascension tradition is found here.

Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[Daughter of Time]

Christ is a consciousness and Jesus was the embodiment of such consciousness. Thus, Jesus Christ!
His message to this very troubled planet he decided to visit for while, was to become aware, to forgive and to love.

[58andfixed]

Thanks for collaborating Roland:

My simplest perspective, after very much examination, is that "hell" isn't a place so much as the consequence of a choice made in ignorance - in the lower-case sense of 'truth.'

I believe it helps to explain why some people experience NDE "hell," and others a welcoming "tunnel of light."

Now, if there are consequences in the much larger sense, as in "Truth" as set by a "Universal Tribunal," there could very well be eternal consequences for a soul -- however, on the reasonable speculation that eternal consequences are not permitted to be made in ignorance, I don't think it unreasonable to plead "mens rea" [lack of evil intent] at that point. At least I did more than prefer denial, and avoided the effort to become aware.

I believe that the further down the path of eternity we all go, there will be less room to deny what cannot be proven, and every mortal will be given multiple chances to cease their ignorance.

The question that arises for me, is that after some soul has been granted some huge amount of forgiveness, and still choose 'evil,' what then ? Extinction of that soul ? --- I don't *know* that either, however would be a reasonable speculation in a Universe that is organized in a just way. I very much doubt pits of eternal pain and revenge.

This 'great latitude' is the root of evil & injustice. There may be some kind of reward for having endured injustices -- however, that isn't anything that I can say I *know.*

I'm more concerned about my contribution towards an aware and functional civilization here and now, to do the best I can, and take effort to be aware. So my contributions need to be well studied if they are to be of any value to by fellow sisters and brothers, not simple casual opinions.

The "hell" used by Organized Religion seems to me to be contrived for the frightening of the plebes into the pews for the purposes of collecting tithes, and permitting the giving up of our sovereign authority over our free will, in deference to some authority as the 'truth.'

This is my oversimplified version. I have no evidence for my belief, other than a studied approach to various writings available to all, and my personal challenge is to vet the ideas available to a point that I have a clear basis for the way I will live life.

- 58

Posted by Centauro (here)
As far as Hell is concern, you are right 58andfixed, it doesn't fit with the first source at all.

But to me Hell is not a place that you are sent to for the "punishment of your sins".

Hell is also a estate of being that anyone can choose to go to because of our free will.

If a person chooses to be destructive, evil, enjoying the hurt he/she inflicts on others, then that is the estate of being that he/she will have forever, and not because a punishment from the source.

Roland el Centauro