It's not the truth.

[9eagle9]

In lieu of recent exchanges and expressions brought up recently its questionable if anyone is 'free' to believe anything they want.

One's thoughts or beliefs may not be their own, that is being demonstrated on this forum lately and as you just recently noted, Roman.

Believing other people's thoughts and then claiming them as their own.

Very obvious, right there for the observation even as this phenom exists and grows daily, the denial of this habit grows in relations.


Funny eh?

[Hervé]

Posted by 9eagle9 (here)
To give a different perspective on past lives and reincarnation...(unable to resist as this expression rarely has a chance to make itself known and Roman as usual has brought up some highly advanced ORIGIN-al expression here.

What is a past life?

When did you experience the past live ?

A) I didn't experience the past life it was something told to me by a 2nd party.
(no self evidence of past live experience)


B) I had an experience of circumstances that were not in alignment within the framework of my perceptual reality.

---all of our past lives are coincidentally experienced in the present.

so where does that leave us.....NOW?

Indeed, all of it is in the now as expressed in someone's famous quote saying something like "An individual is the sum up of its past experiences."

However, regarding living all of them coincidentally in the present doesn't quite make it, since most of these memories are below consciousness for most and operate on the same level of "post-hypnotic suggestions" and therefore not triggered into action by current environment since it's lacking all the post hypnotic triggers (eg "gladiators" in an arena with lions, etc... unless going to see a movie or going to a zoo).

In that same vein, watch kids play with transformers or "Star Wars" or knights of the round table and you may get an idea of when these memories stacked in the "now" surface into actions in the "right here, right now!"

[RedeZra]

let God be truth

and let us live life

til time is up


to think that a human being can come up with truth

is a waste of time


life is too short for such nonsense

[Mozart]

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)

... I wait for somebody to slap me silly with some proof.

ROMANWKT ~


You can consider yourself slapped silly now.


There are so many cases of clear-cut reincarnation recall amongst young kids who remember, amongst other things:

1) Their sex in a previous incarnation immediately prior to the current one; and,


2) Their names that they had; and,


3) Where the lived; and,


4) Who were their mothers, fathers and siblings, including names; and,


5) When the lived; and,


6) What they did for a living and how they died, etc.


Just google this " Children recalling " and Google will finish that for you by suggesting " past lives " to be added. It's THAT COMMON of a search term! Think about that.


And think about the odds -- statistically -- of just ONE kid getting 10, 15, 20+ specific facts correctly -- their own names; names of their parents, siblings; where they lived, etc, etc. down pat and proven as FACT, based on the historical records of the previous lives lived.


Getting just ONE NAME RIGHT is a major slim chance of a kid getting that right. Then add to that the names of their siblings in a previous lifetime that checks out in historical records; then add to that where they lived, etc, etc -- what odds do you think of just ONE kid getting all that right?


It's like millions to one odds, man. Like winning the lottery.


And add to that hundreds of recorded cases of children's past life recalls that check out historically, let alone thousands, let alone hundreds of thousands.


Dude, if you have honestly researched just a fraction of the 56,500,000 results from " children recalling past lives " and still maintain that you've not been slapped silly with no proof, then you will be clearly be in denial and refusing to give up a belief system of the idea that reincarnation is bunk.


Beware that belief systems are addictive and beware that changing one's mind is far more difficult than changing a house that's already built.


~Mozart

[9eagle9]

One.... this is information given to you from external sources. Roman has remarked on this phenom, and then I remarked on it and yet it seems to be a continuous unbreakable pattern for some.

The children short of teleporting back in time, dropping out of this life to go back in time to enjoy another before returning to this one,....these children have experienced these events in the present. Have recalled them in the present.

Recall has nothing to do with the present other than recall is made known in the present. . Obviously, and providing of it's own evidence. You have provided no evidence, simply more information coming from 2nd or 3rd party sources whom you are choosing to believe.

I'd not be so quick to slap because you are no where even close to comprehending the question let alone supplying an answer.

NOW...(he he) if you care to relate your past life experiences, that nudges us a bit further into what Roman is attempting to express.

Posted by Mozart (here)

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)

... I wait for somebody to slap me silly with some proof.

ROMANWKT ~


You can consider yourself slapped silly now.


There are so many cases of clear-cut reincarnation recall amongst young kids who remember, amongst other things:

1) Their sex in a previous incarnation immediately prior to the current one; and,


2) Their names that they had; and,


3) Where the lived; and,


4) Who were their mothers, fathers and siblings, including names; and,


5) When the lived; and,


6) What they did for a living and how they died, etc.


Just google this " Children recalling " and Google will finish that for you by suggesting " past lives " to be added. It's THAT COMMON of a search term! Think about that.


And think about the odds -- statistically -- of just ONE kid getting 10, 15, 20+ specific facts correctly -- their own names; names of their parents, siblings; where they lived, etc, etc. down pat and proven as FACT, based on the historical records of the previous lives lived.


Getting just ONE NAME RIGHT is a major slim chance of a kid getting that right. Then add to that the names of their siblings in a previous lifetime that checks out in historical records; then add to that where they lived, etc, etc -- what odds do you think of just ONE kid getting all that right?


It's like millions to one odds, man. Like winning the lottery.


And add to that hundreds of recorded cases of children's past life recalls that check out historically, let alone thousands, let alone hundreds of thousands.


Dude, if you have honestly researched just a fraction of the 56,500,000 results from " children recalling past lives " and still maintain that you've not been slapped silly with no proof, then you will be clearly be in denial and refusing to give up a belief system of the idea that reincarnation is bunk.


Beware that belief systems are addictive and beware that changing one's mind is far more difficult than changing a house that's already built.


~Mozart

[xbusymom]

Posted by 9eagle9 (here)

NOW...(he he) if you care to relate your past life experiences, that nudges us a bit further into what Roman is attempting to express.

ok, here is my experience... and technically it is not proof for you unless we can do a vulcan mind-meld so that you can experience the same thing I did...
but, it went beyond my knowledge of reality at that time... and there was a thread - way back then, in the original forum- about the whether the past life recall is only a way to tap into the vibrational equivelant of your state of being at the time of asking the Source-energy your question.

Posted by xbusymom (here)
Although I might have been someone important or famous in a past life, I have only needed to explore 4 previous/alternate incarnations for the current life lesson. (and those 4 were just regular PEOPLE- I didn't even know what my names were)

Just before deciding on going through with the divorce, I asked my higher self to show me any relevant issues and ties to my then (- almost 20 years ago) current husband and what I was supposed to be working on at this time (whatever this life lesson, perception, issue- was).

I was shown my lifetime(s)
1)- as a much older brother to my [husband]/-younger brother and was unhappy at having to sacrifice my dream and saved 'university 'tuition so I could TAKE CARE OF him because our parents died.
2)- a catholic nun ; unhappy with the life of sacrifice and the severe restrictions of that lifestyle and of having to TAKE CARE OF the FATHER-Regent (?)
3)- a hooker and unhappy with having to TAKE CARE OF others needs
4)- a housewife in the victorain era and unhappy at being a non-person who was expected to TAKE CARE OF husbands' needs (and whoever else 's needs that hubby ordered me to)

...and compare those past lives to this lifetime

I heard those same words from current hubby- I want you to TAKE CARE OF me

the TAKE CARE OF lesson was about not having to ”be responsible for/ accept responsibility for” anyone's actions and decisions for their life experiences in their lives... to such a point as to exclude my own needs and desires
… finding the balancing point of caring ABOUT other people but not be responsible FOR them.
I needed to only be responsible for my life experiences and decisions-

and I have been bumping up against LOTS of situations (now that I am consciously aware of what I am working on) this lifetime to help me exorcise that demon / practice fine-tuning a different response

all I know is that I asked for information on why I was experiencing restriction/lack/ and unhappiness in this life... and the above info is the explanation I received.

[9eagle9]

It's evidence that you experienced SOMETHING and it was not something imposed on you consciously by a second or third party.

Now this does not mean precisely that this was a past life.

It could have been imposed on you unaware .

What you have described are archetypical events that are more related to the psyche than past life.

- a catholic nun ; unhappy with the life of sacrifice and the severe restrictions of that lifestyle and of having to TAKE CARE OF the FATHER-Regent (?)
3)- a hooker and unhappy with having to TAKE CARE OF others needs


As a counselor I have just in the last two months unwinded three such situations like this. This suggests to me this is archetypical in nature. Not that it isn't helpful in clearing out one's inner mess, it just debateable if it is life or archetypical filter related. That may be important on it's own.

The reason I bring this up is once I cleared out all my archetypical crap, I was left with the realization that I had no previous dependable incarnations--I have no idea if this is at all meaningful or not. Not that clearing out the archetypical stories weren't helpful but....what was I left with.

did they cease to exist? Does the past exist?

What creates time?

Being anchored in the events that are behind the present (if one views present as zero)

[Mozart]

Posted by 9eagle9 (here)

I'd not be so quick to slap because you are no where even close to comprehending the question let alone supplying an answer.

9eagle9 ~


Who are you to tell me that I'm "no where close to comprehending the question"? The way that you put it was insulting and I'm not going to accept insults from anyone.


I do realize Roman's point of experiential basis of thinking/thoughts/beliefs, but I was addressing his insistence that there's "no proof" of reincarnation.


But the experiential-only approach of "owning" your own thoughts ... well, it's rather narrow, really.


Do you believe that:


1) Atoms exist?


2) Black holes exist?


Etc? Things that you've not seen and that you rely on others to tell you that they exist? Those things are "outside" sources of information.


The vast majority of information in both of your heads easily have likely started from outside sources, only to find ways into your heads, yes?


Are your thoughts really that original? Tracing where thoughts come from is probably the ultimate rabbit hole experience that one can have, I bet.


~Mozart

[9eagle9]

That isn't proof of reincarnation, its second and their hand accounts.

If you have never been made aware of this form of expression chances are its not coming from something other than myself. We are working on Origin-al expression here not recyecled thoughts and stories in case you didn't notice.

That is why I asked XBusy Mom her evidence of past life, regardless of what occurred it is something she experienced.

That is not your evidence of proof of past life, you are simple offering the accounts of others and asking us to accept them it as proof.

This seems to be a habit with people that prefer outside information rather than direct experience.

i neither believe nor disbelieve that atoms exist and blackholes exist. I don't have to believe either in order to exist.

[xbusymom]

Posted by 9eagle9 (here)
It's evidence that you experienced SOMETHING and it was not something imposed on you consciously by a second or third party.

Now this does not mean precisely that this was a past life.

that is not to say it wasnt either... unless you have the same experience, you cannot correctly judge what I dealt with.

- a catholic nun ; unhappy with the life of sacrifice and the severe restrictions of that lifestyle and of having to TAKE CARE OF the FATHER-Regent (?)
3)- a hooker and unhappy with having to TAKE CARE OF others needs

that is only 2 out of the 4... what do you say about the others?

As a counselor I have just in the last two months unwinded three such situations like this. This suggests to me this is archetypical in nature. Not that it isn't helpful in clearing out one's inner mess, it just debateable if it is life or archetypical filter related. That may be important on it's own.

The reason I bring this up is once I cleared out all my archetypical crap, I was left with the realization that I had no previous dependable incarnations--I have no idea if this is at all meaningful or not. Not that clearing out the archetypical stories weren't helpful but....what was I left with.

only 2 months training... my dad was a PHD psychologist- and I was raised with the premise that each person has their take on what any given incident, or situation means according to what they are experiencing in their lives... and unless you have lived that persons life up to any point of advice/counseling, you have No clue whether it is considered true or beneficial for that person.

so please stop insisting that everyone see things as you do.

[9eagle9]

The other two are archetypical in nature, although I have not had a client directly confess to me anything in my last two months of counseling sessions (please re read that statement) that so closely aligns with the archetypical stories that you related.

I didn't have two months training as a counselor, read my post again and take your filters out. There is no where in my post that suggests I have two months training as a counselor. The unfiltered literate person would know that to be in the previous two months as a counselor I have seen your archetypical story revealed to me in session in a pattern that is no longer ignorable or chalked up to coincedence.

You have made an assumption based on a defensive thought and prejudiced belief .Your cognitive deficiency in no way reflects on me. I have evidence; you have ASSumption.

Because your father was a psychologist, which is what all religious filters are based in , no way establishes that you are adept at the psyche either and provides further evidence that people establish their reality by basing it on external 2nd and 3rd party tellings. Because your father had rigid indoctrination doesn't suggest to me that you are doctrine free either.

The bottom line here not to wade through everyone's defense systems concerning their beliefs is that the more you clear the issues concerning past lives, those lives disappear. They no longer exist. Apparently they only existed at the moment of recall anyway. This has quite a lot to do with zero point. Not everyone comprehends the notion because they are very much attached to 'who they were' never challenging that perhaps that is not entirely correct either. People seem very comfortable and pre conditioned to accept who they are not, so this would be a easily inserted means of distorting one's reality.

I have no fear that you will ever observe things the way I do however your inability to observe things the way in this cognitively filtered way may cause you a great deal of trouble eventually. I suspect that it already has.

I find it amusing that people would be so defensive about finding out their past lives were not.

if people are reluctant to give up their past life 'storie's I can imagine how difficult it would be to give up this one.

[sunnyrap]

I had a past life regression facilitated by a psychologist trained and licensed to do so a few years ago. She had done a great many of them previous to mine and had been trained by a recognized expert in it. It was a fascinating experience. I was not convinced in my own mind that what I had experienced in the regression was not something my unconscious mind dredged up from bits and pieces of second hand experience (books, movies, others' stories, etc.). She told me part of the training for doing this work was learning to read eye movements; that the eyes tracked differently when dreaming/imagining than when remembering. She told me my eye movements indicated I was remembering. The lifetime pulled up by the regression seemed to be as a young girl living with her father on a Civil War era farm, i'm guessing in the deep South. It was vivid and not a bit romantic. It was like looking at a live scene through a drinking straw--I had to swivel my p.o.v. around to pick up small details of body, dress and environment. She tracked me through the slice of history up to when I came to an early and unhappy end. (The point of the regression was to find links to a current health condition).

[9eagle9]

Past life recall is often second hand information pieced together from random fragments of information in the subconscious that cannot tell fact from fantasy.

Hypnosis regression puts one back in time rather than recalling information in the present.

If this is more dependable is still debatable, because we are still working with programming, language and those trip up words--re-call and re-membering. Re-membering is not always recall of past events but putting fragments back together into a comprehensive unit. Re-member. But its more dependable than conscious recall. The consciousness has a tendency to take the fragments that subconscious burps up and spin them into something that is rational and makes sense, but might not necessarily be true.

It is true though that the body in state expresses certain symptoms at different depths when one is in state.

Regression therapy on its own can be very revealing and it can help one alter circumstances in their life but getting behind the subconscious, the conscious, behind the filters and the programming including what may be brought up in regression and what one recalls then is an entirely different matter and maybe more towards what Roman is speaking about.

Blank slate realms there.

[Hervé]

All right, let's try another tack here... any of youse remember/recall/relive what youse did have for diner yesterday? Is it still in your memory or has it been wiped out blanK?

... because that, by definition, already belongs to "past life," i.e. "not now." If so, is it a construct of the conscious mind grabbing at straws from the subconscious?

So... when individuals remember/recall/relive something that occurred in their earlier years... before birth... during gestation... before conception... etc, in the same maner as they remember/recall/relive yesterday's diner... that too is "past life" material!

[mosquito]

Roman - well done for expressing it so well.

The unfolding debate is clear evidence that you are right !!!

9E9, glad to see someone gets it !!

[SKAWF]

imagine yourself as having taken two paths, at the same time.

path one, everything has been good. no dark forces causing chaos and destruction, and an upbringing which made you aware of who and what you are.

path two, one of chaos and destruction, a controlling elite that has worked for centuries to hide knowledge, and keep us in the dark as to our origins and or purpose.

i think that what those on path two would call 'the truth', those on path one would just call it 'knowledge'

i really do believe that in order to have 'the truth', you must have a lie first.
if we hadnt been put in the situation we are in, we would not need a key 'the truth' to get ourselves out of it.

both things (the lie, and the truth) are in addition to 'what just is'.
the universe and everything in it, already existed long before anyone lied to or, or told us the truth, so if you want knowledge of the universe, and our purpose, thats one thing, but the truth.... well, that may only end up being the remedy to the lie we have been told.

if you really do want to restore a connection with your higher self, dont look to the external. thats not where YOU are.

how can you understand the prison you are in, if you only ever look out of the window?

[Chester]

Posted by Mozart (here)
No, I'm not quoting other people. I'm stating things that are truths that exist outside of our perceptions ...

Hi Mozart ... I was wondering and dude, I am not all that smart (probably too much weed in my younger days) but you start out by saying this and that is "truths outside our perception."


and besides seeing flashbacks of the priests and my mother when I was a kid, if its outside our perception, then how do we know its truths? You see what I mean? Did someone tell you this? Or did you just "know" this? Or was it in that Ra stuff maybe?

Thanks
justoneconfusedman

[9eagle9]

Are you the same person you were 20 years ago? 10 years? 40?

What happened to that person you were when you were 15?

You brought up an interesting word that is dis-similar to the other words of re-call and re-member and that is re-live.

The beginning of this post was initiated in the past.

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
All right, let's try another tack here... any of youse remember/recall/relive what youse did have for diner yesterday? Is it still in your memory or has it been wiped out blanK?

... because that, by definition, already belongs to "past life," i.e. "not now." If so, is it a construct of the conscious mind grabbing at straws from the subconscious?

So... when individuals remember/recall/relive something that occurred in their earlier years... before birth... during gestation... before conception... etc, in the same maner as they remember/recall/relive yesterday's diner... that too is "past life" material!

[xbusymom]

I was asked for MY EXPERIENCE. I thought the question was presented for Roman to comment on, since he is the OP - my mistake there... And I had already put in a disclaimer that I had thought about and discussed the alterEGO possibilities.

... and there was a thread - way back then, in the original forum- about the whether the past life recall is only a way to tap into the vibrational equivelant of your state of being at the time of asking the Source-energy your question.

But you don't want to acknowledge that – you just want to nitpick peoples posts to death until they give up or give in to you, and now you are starting to call names.

... I have evidence; you have ASSumption. … your inability to observe things the way in this cognitively filtered way ...

Sorry if I hit a nerve...
The facts may well prove you out to be true, but that still does not discount WHAT I experienced and HOW I experienced it.
And NO you don't have evidence either- you did not experience a past life recall, your client did... by your own definition...

Recall has nothing to do with the present other than recall is made known in the present. . Obviously, and providing of it's own evidence. You have provided no evidence, simply more information coming from 2nd or 3rd party sources whom you are choosing to believe.

I have no fear that you will ever observe things the way I do

thats right, and the opposite is also true... you will never observe things the way I do because you and I are 2 different people having separate experiences and living different lives from different perspectives and our own filters we each grew up with...

and if you have managed to grow past your shortcomings, that is great- but that doesn't give you the right to destroy others' viewpoints and personal experiences just because they may not be as far along in their journey as you are now.

Each person gets information on how to overcome their difficulties in a different way that is meaningful to them.

[9eagle9]

I never discounted your experience, you have grown to defensive over your experience to demonstrate the dynamics that is attempted to be conveyed here--it is possible that even though that was your experience it may not belong to you at all. Or that once those issues related to what is recalled a past life are worked through cease to exist. I'm sorry you can't comprehend that but I'm not responsible for your comprehensive.

There is no meaningful way to convey an examination of the topic without people getting their knickers in a twist about it, which speaks volumes on its own.

You have twice demonstrated a reactionary defensiveness to first Roman and then myself over what is simply an exploration, and an attempt to cast a new perception on a old paradigm. Yes you make it clear this threatens your belief system, I understand that.

I may have very well overcame my shortcomings, but that I'm not going to be your excuse for remaining stuck in yours.

Stick with the Abe Hicks crap, its less threatening for you.

Unknown Territory doesn't seem to agree with you.