Excavating The Empty Tomb - The Gospels based on Homer's Odyssey?

[sigma6]

update: First of all I want to say that by definition, this is ALL speculation for all of us. And a good exercise at developing our deductive reasoning at that. But I have to admit I am having a hard time making sense of what your saying just above. On the one hand he (your source) is recognizing that they died with food in their stomach and mouth. But then says because it is only Mammoths and Rhinoceroses it is indicative of what? I am not sure what your actually saying there. My take would be because of their huge size, they would be the most easily 'survived' specimens, ie. when whatever 'swept through' they might have been the only thing big enough to stay in one piece. And I say swept through, I don' see this as an isolated incident, these Mammoths are being turned up everywhere, it had to have been huge whatever it was.

Also I read somewhere that the type of plant was specifically from a hot temperate or warmer climate, which is why it was such a mystery. I don't really get why he thinks it is 'typical' finding, not one but several of these Mammoths with the vegetation still intact. I do agree, they may have drowned first, the food in mouth had to have been an 'immediate death' scenario. Then regardless how well they froze, it still would have been counted in hours, a huge Mammoth would still take several hours maybe a day or two to completely freeze, so some decay wouldn't be inconsistent with being 'transported' to a freezing environment. but the freezing couldn't have taken more then two or three days, otherwise they would have been stinking bloated carcasses, and the idea of even sampling a small portion would have been out of the question, and the vegetation would have also been greatly putrified.

By Flash frozen I was just making reference that one moment they were eating, and the next they are dead, and at the very least the 'freezing process' must have started right away, although it may have taken maybe more then a couple days, to completely freeze an elephant. But it must have started within the hour to prevent the veggies rotting in their mouth and stomach. It had to be hours (maybe many, but still hours) instead of days.

I heard about them sampling the meat, but never gave it that much thought, never heard about any 'banquet', what I read just gave the impression, it was done on a lark, to 'record' for posterity, to highlight that there it was still existing flesh, which is quite amazing in itself given how many thousands of years it must have been there. I don't think anyone would seriously consider 'feasting' on some unknown animal carcass.

I am not entirely clear what your source is proposing, as it sounds too vague to understand exactly the picture he is painting. It sounds like you are saying they got hit by a mudslide as one possibility, and then were frozen. I still think the pole shift would still fit with this scenario. I will conjecture that whatever happened it was far ranging, else they wouldn't be turning up so many intact carcasses to this day.

[ghostrider]

every culture looks to someone else to save them, so as not to take responsibilty for their own actions. the greeks need Zeus, Muslims need Allah, Jews need Jevhovah, christians need Jesus, Norweigans need Odin, chinese need Budda, they never look in the mirror .

[panopticon]

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)

Posted by panopticon;499519[...

So my question here is: What evidence is there that "flash freezing" occurred and what evidence is there for the "explorer club" story?

[...]

Sorry, gona have to ask the few select who ate it and found it delicious... probably all dead of old age by now.

That was the only evidence that these mastodonts were flash frozen since the vegetables in their stomach would have had to freeze under 60 seconds in order to exhibit the freshness and crunchiness of said vegetables once defrost. That would mean these woolly beasts would have had to be thrown in a pool of liquid nitrogen of some sort and swallowed some. Hence my post above.

If that evidence is a tall tale instead of a OOPA... well, back to square one.

G'day Amzer Zo,

This is where I'm a tad confused and leaning towards it being a "tall tale".
I'm not even sure if the "salad" would have been human edible (even before it was allegedly frozen) so what does that leave?

I agree with your analysis of liquid nitrogen or being exposed to space though again there's no evidence from that period (roughly 40,000 BCE give or take a 10000 years or so ) of an event like that occurring that I'm aware of...
Plus, as Farrand pointed out, wouldn't there be an abundance of smaller animals also frozen along with the woolly mammoth and rhino if such a cataclysm occurred?

So I'm left thinking that there was no "flash freeze" event and the woolly mammoth and rhino discovered in the permafrost died from what the coroner would now call "misadventure" (ie fell through frozen river, swept away by rivers, mud slides etc).
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[panopticon]

Posted by sigma6 (here)
First off this is ALL speculation. And I have to admit I am having a hard time making sense of what your saying. On the one hand he (your source) is recognizing that they died with food in their stomach and mouth. But then says because it is only Mammoths and Rhinoceroses is indicative of what? I am not sure. My take would be because of their huge size, they would be the most easily 'survived' specimens, ie. when whatever 'swept through' they might have been the only thing big enough to stay in one piece. And I say swept through, I don' see this as an isolated incident, these Mammoths are being turned up everywhere, it had to have been huge whatever it was.

G'day Sigma6,

The mammoth that have been found appear to be dated to various periods, 1000's of years apart, not just one single event. There had been 39 "corpses" found by 1961 according to Farrand and others. All appeared to be in various states of decay prior to their entombment. The remainder of the finds appear to be mostly skeletons.

Posted by sigma6 (here)
Also I read somewhere that the type of plant was specifically from a hot temperate or warmer climate, which is why it was such a mystery. I don't really get why he thinks it is 'typical' finding, not one but several of these Mammoths with the vegetation still intact. I do agree, they may have drowned first, the food in mouth had to have been an 'immediate death' scenario. Then regardless how well they froze, it still would have been counted in hours, a huge Mammoth would still take several hours maybe a day or two to completely freeze, so some decay wouldn't be inconsistent with being 'transported' to a freezing environment. but the freezing couldn't have taken more then two or three days, otherwise they would have been stinking bloated carcasses, and the idea of even sampling a small portion would have been out of the question, and the vegetation would have also been greatly putrified.

Yep. That's my point. The majority of it evidently was rancid. Also can't find any evidence that the "flash freezing" actually occurred. The vegetation was not from a 'hot temperate or warmer climate', evidently that's part of the myth. Below is a copy of the plants found in what is known as the Berezovka mammoth:

Posted by sigma6 (here)
By Flash frozen I was just making reference that one moment they were eating, and the next they are dead, and at the very least the 'freezing process' must have started right away, although it may have taken maybe more then a couple days, to completely freeze an elephant. But it must have started within the hour to prevent the veggies rotting in their mouth and stomach. It had to be hours (maybe many, but still hours) instead of days.

I agree, there appears to be no actual evidence that a "flash freeze" occurred. It appears to be mostly legend that I've sourced back a few authors and newspaper articles.

Posted by sigma6 (here)
I heard about them sampling the meat, but never gave it that much thought, never heard about any 'banquet', what I read just gave the impression, it was done on a lark, to 'record' for posterity, to highlight that there it was still existing flesh, which is quite amazing in itself given how many thousands of years it must have been there. I don't think anyone would seriously consider 'feasting' on some unknown animal carcass.

I am not entirely clear what your source is proposing, as it sounds too vague to understand exactly the picture he is painting. It sounds like you are saying they got hit by a mudslide as one possibility, and then were frozen. I still think the pole shift would still fit with this scenario. I will conjecture that whatever happened it was far ranging, else they wouldn't be turning up so many intact carcasses to this day.

Where my problem was with all this was I was under the impression that the mammoths were all dated from the same period. This was incorrect. It appears they are dated over thousands of years.

An article on a baby mammoth (nick-named 'Lyuba' found in 2007) talking about the rate of decay and damage to the "calf" can be found here:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...mueller-text/1

The "source" I was quoting is a peer reviewed journal article in Science and can be found here:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/133/3455/729

PM for more info if you want.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

Addendum:

Thought I'd have a look at some of the plants identified in the list given above. All are classified as Arctic, sub-Arctic and/or frost hardy so the mammoths appear to have been living in a climate only a little warmer than present (or maybe that's one not that different to what we are coming in to with the permafrost melting).

Examples taken @ random:

Abies sibirica
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abies_sibirica

Artemisia borealis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemisia_borealis
http://www.arcticatlas.org/photos/pl...queryID=arcab2
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=ARCAB4

Elymus sibiricus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elymus_(genus)
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=ELSI

Pedicularis cf. sudetica
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedicularis
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=PESU
http://www.mun.ca/biology/delta/arct...www/scpesu.htm

[observer]

I tend to lean toward panopticon suggestion with the 'frozen salad theory' being an urban legend. He has offered too much evidence to show the instantaneous freezing model is nothing more than Hollywood spin.

Cutting-edge plasma physicists like Hannes Alfvén have offered evidence that we live in an "Electric Universe". Our planet is nothing more than a giant alternator creating electromagnetic fields caused by the molten iron core and the spin of the earth.

Streams of plasma millions of light-years across have been observed in the universe. In the laboratory, plasma can only be linked to electricity.

It is the earth's magnetosphere that protects life on the surface from the bombardment of cosmic energies, such as the Solar Winds.

The archeological record indicates that a regular pattern of rising and declining magnetosphere intensities are linked to an historic documentation of pole shifts. Right now the intensity of the magnetosphere is declining, and the poles are wandering at an unusual rate, see here.

Not to discount amzer's suggestion of a rogue asteroid being a possible candidate for a single random frozen wooly mammoth event, however, the record will show a reoccurring pole-shift pattern is linked more to the Electric Universe Model.

[sigma6]

Let's not forget we live in a matrix, an artificially construed version of the real world 'adjusted' and altered in innumerable points according to a specific agenda. I had to add this because of the following 'rant' of sorts, but bare me out...

Interesting Panoptican, good research... although I will pose one criticism, I highly question the 'dating' methods used by scientists these days, from my understanding there is huge, huge controversy regarding geological (rock) dating, carbon-14 dating, and I am going to speculate that it follows right into whatever method they are using for dating biological entities from supposedly 10s of thousands of years ago as well. Although this is a broad and general criticism and I will grant that. I truly believe it is well pointed, as the reason for it is because all of these 'sciences' affect the Mason controlled University system controlling all 'evolution' related 'science'. And I for one believe without exception, it has been compromised (as unscientific as that may seem) ie. I believe in no uncertain terms that it is done on purpose.

One of the most stunning examples was brought to my attention by none other then Kent Hovind (yes I can hear the comments already ha!) but he did make an absolutely brilliant observation by way of simple example, that how they measure the ice layers (in this instance) was completely 180 degrees dead wrong, why? - they determined a depth of ice to be over 60,000 years old but when they got down to that level, lo and behold they found a WWII Bomber buried in the snow, they weren't off by a thousand years here and there, they were playing in another baseball stadium... That one (little known) example clearly exposed them as the charlatans they truly are, (even if they did believe their own misinformation.) Anyone of integrity on the scene would have had to give their 'scientific method' a good re-think, wouldn't you say?

The same issue has come up with Carbon-14 dating. Not to go into it too deeply, but it is hugely dependent on one assumption that is either difficult to test so far, and/or has been quietly pushed in the background. And that is that the amount of available carbon either in the air and land (or something to that effect) is assumed to be a constant, well is it any wonder they have now found this is absolutely not true? that it has been steadily increasing, (or vice versa... ) the point is, the conclusion was clear, that if true, it has grossly over inflated all the numbers ever produced on the dates being proposed. I also respect Richard Milton's presentation in the Mysterious origins of Man where he points out another similar huge controversy regarding the method of geological rock dating.

I can't believe that all this is because somehow we are more smarter and perceptive then all these scientists. And that every time they get it wrong it is always hundreds of thousands, to millions of years off, and always in a direction (or misdirection) that 'seems' to support evolutionary theory (which is nothing more then a convoluted re-interpretation of adaption which has nothing to do with 'evolution' as they connotate it). Instead it is more likely this has to go back to the same old game. There are those who are pushing an agenda, and in an absolute 'spit in the face' to true science and methodology, they have their agenda first and they will bribe (fund) anyone who 'tows the line' and demote, attack, and 'excommunicate' anyone who tries to bring in science based on independent thought and research. Nothing could be more unethical or evil. But we know for a fact, especially today, that this has to be taken into consideration. In the case of Hovind's example, there is absolutely no escape. And the grossness of the inaccuracy is inexcusable, he single handedly threw their entire methodology right in the toilet. Which is why I think he is so viciously attacked, when in a true scientific paradigm he should have been lauded for his observation and contribution. This is what science is supposed to do!

Now regarding the plants, your research looks pretty compelling I am going through it... I will try to remember where I heard the temperate plant theory from. But again, something doesn't sound right about it, even if it was spread out over thousands of years, it seems to obfuscate the fact that this phenomena has occurred at all. Now that there are so many of them (all in Siberia only btw) it seems to be trying to minimize how truly unique these findings really are. Finding one frozen carcass from thousands of years ago is an absolute lottery. Yet in this one region they are finding dozens and they are suppose have all some how all have fallen into a river drift, while eating at the same time, and then got frozen before the body decayed, and this just kept happening over and over, and only in this part of the world. I hope you can see how improbable I find such an analysis at first blush. But... I am going to look more at your research with a critical eye, a very critical eye, because of the amount of material you have brought to bare on the subject, but there is my bias (or intuition) ie. it just doesn't 'smell' right.

I still believe that the Mammoths are still an unsolved mystery. But I think the evidence clearly points to something evolutionists, and people who want to deny pole shifts (as possible examples) may not want to recognize and thus must automatically create a counter measure propaganda campaign. We absolutely live in a Big Brother State, with thought police, and Word smiths (lawyers/politicians) who change the meanings of our words, We have a corporate executive of Monsanto as one of the directors of the FDA, we have pro - evolutionist masonic directors of universities (who of all people should and probably do know better) running the curriculum that is being spooned into students' minds, in order to create more of those dedicated scientists, like the ones who found the WWII bomber (much to their surprise, I am sure)... and when one of their schemes goes wrong like the multi-trillion dollar non existent H1N1 virus (that never happened, oops, back to the drawing board) there is a strange number of microbiologists being murdered in bizarre circumstances. This rabbit hole is full of so many skeletons and bullsh**, we are just scratching the surface!

These evil twisted bastards have not only cut us off from the non-material realities of our consciousness, they don't even follow their own scientific materialist methodology when it might expose the cracks in their artificial matrix! How much more hypocritical can it get!?

So... I will re-iterate as much as we push back and forth as we share all our information, that it is understood by me that everyone is merely projecting their best 'theoretical' understanding and belief. That we must all be willing to admit if and when we are wrong, and as quickly as possible. And to do this in a scientific and (ironically) humble manner, if we are to truly practice the spirit of truth in scientific analysis... It is unfortunate, but we live in an age where we have few true leaders, people that we cannot follow the example of, ie, political and economic leaders, professors, spiritual leaders, etc. nor do I agree with the legalistic and artificially created logic of our lawyers and the court system, which has subconsciously been picked up and 'emulated' by laypeople (through media and television) as some form of 'superior logic'. Not realizing it is purposely false, a fiction within a fiction, just another level of hidden control, another stacking of the deck. People must come to grips that the deceit has been built over thousands of years. If one is not actively looking for it, one is most likely already compromised by it. As sad as that may sound, that is what it is to be living in this time. And individuals do make themselves more susceptible by not seriously seeking ultimate truths in their own value system, as most people lack a fundamental philosophical system of their own. We are truly living in a dangerous time, walking a narrow path.

Therefore, as always my proposal is that we must therefore use our desire for truth as a guide post to direct our reason, to keep our minds open to new information and humble to necessary changes that may arise as a result. To develop our own abilities and trust in our own perceptions and observations, and above all to not be afraid to ask our own questions. Learning new information and adjusting our current understanding does mean that sometimes we may have to let go of long cherished beliefs. Hopefully if we are true to that principle, I would imagine, that one should have to make fewer and fewer changes over the longer term (knock on wood). But, nonetheless, it absolutely behooves us to ALWAYS be WILLING to make that change so long as we breathe. And that this kind of thinking we must constantly put before our awareness.

This I believe we must do if we are to be the examples that the elite are not (nor the 'excessively privileged' upper middle class (yes men) that feed off and support their machinations). So in that spirit I am going to take a good look at your info which you have apparently put a great deal of thought and research into... stay tuned... ';.{

[sigma6]

Bits and pieces, chronological 'catch up' of responses...

observer - Many researchers are looking into the possibility that the Bible was written as an agenda to project the Roman Empire into the 21 Century in the guise of the Holy Roman Empire (Catholicism).

- wholeheartedly agreed

RedeZra - now the controllers are trying to sell us the idea that humanity is genetically engineered by aliens so why bother debunking the Bible when the PTB has already done it

- no, the PTB are doing everything in their power to create a 'media vacuum' around Lloyd Pye. What they are pushing is 'evolution', but only as a counter balance to 'Religion'. Neither one is correct, that is the beauty, classic conquer and divide with no end in sight.

What Lloyd Pye is doing isn't an ultimate answer either (as it doesn't explain the origin of our genetic engineers, but it is the direction we should be going in... It will tie in many loose ends that I wish he would go back to and articulate more comprehensively.

Note: One fact totally counter to evolution: it has been stated that 99% of every kind of living species that ever existed on our planet is extinct, then combine that with one term that Lloyd says to throw in their face: Cambrian Explosion

RedeZra - by the way what shall we say to the millions who have met and been healed and helped by Jesus today ?

- this is a good question, it points to a real phenomena, something about humans being suppressed by other humans, this should be pursued - and should lead to consciousness and quantum physics.

write4change - The bottom line belief of objectivism is that if everybody takes care of themself then no one would have to take care of any one else. This would work if everyone was born equal but they not. Not even equal opportunity.

- I agree, but it could be tweaked by adding that once one has achieve self sufficiency, there should be a moral obligation to provide the same real opportunity to others. It's a mis-perception and a myth that anyone is self made, operating in a vacuum.

write4change - Our economy is going down the tubes because the banksters were able to convince people that free market was god -- even though all the proof exists that the free market never existed and capitalism only works with checks and balances and so it goes.

- I would have to say my understanding is that they removed all the checks and balances that were created after the great depression in order to purposedly create this fascist economy (oligarchy) that exists today. re: G Edward Griffith material. People are just waking up and starting to notice, the Glass-Stiegal act is just one of dozens removed since the depression.

Capitalism isn't the be all and end all, I agree, the economic model I learned about "profit is all" was pitifully superficial... again I believe the diversion is a cover, because my belief is that the true nature of what exists today is all operated on a system of Trusts, and the study of true, non statutory Trust Law is very, very difficult to find... (it is hidden by definition of how private Trusts operate) And what do all the Elites operate... private Trusts... 'statutory law' is for rest of us. (but this is a whole other topic, re: see some of my other posts)

jagman - Satan is a liar and a master at manipulating the masses...

- amen

observer - You will clearly see that Yashu was telling us that we all can be 'Sons of God'. You will also gain a clear understanding that Yashu was excluding himself from the god of the Old Testament, Jehovah/Yahweh whom Yashu referred to as the Devil.

- agreed, the idea of a trinity is patently paganisnistic, and absurdly to the point of being such a hidden message, that the word 'trinity' wasn't even printed once in the many versions of the bible that I have word searched (weird or what?) - now that has to mean something... re: Yahweh as Devil, still looking into ond... Michael S Heiser, who is a self professed 'Christian' and scholar, claims that the Bible does in fact point to some heirarchy of 'Gods'... so much we simply don't know

RedeZra - Gnosticism could not cope with God of the Old Testament

- always wondered about this GOTOT, he sounds more like a deity, then the creator of the entire universe, talking to the people beating his chest mightly (like what has he got to prove?), supplying magic staffs, weather effects, parting waters and creating pillars of fire, stone tablets, huge smoke clouds on mountain tops, manna, always advising which country to attack next, yet whatever he was doing wasn't impressing these people all that much, because no matter how many miracles he pulled they always seemed to fall back into paganism and sin... I don't even think we would be that pathetic, if we could experience any one of these things today.

panopticon - I'd like to thank write4change for providing a personal insight into the members of Rand's inner circle.

- I second that, it certainly adds some grit

jagman - I was just a man at the end of his rope who on bended knee who asked God for help. Sigma, I would encourage you to examine all the possiblities. Luke 11:9 - So I say to you: Keep asking, and it will be given you. Keep searching, and you will find. Keep knocking, and the door will be opened for you

- amen to that, I do think the Bible was trying to give us some truth, but I don't like sh** in my salad, even if you dried it up and sprinkled it on as 'black pepper', if you know what I mean, that's why I think verses like this are definitely pointing to something, but it may have to do with our own hidden powers. ie. we can't deny these 'miracles' happen in many cultures and religions, not just ours - re: books like "The Power of Our Subconscious Mind" "Science of Mind" "What The Bleep Do We Know" etc... There is no question that some power is created when we focus our mind, body and spirit to something... this needs more study...

nosgib - A Cure for Cancer and proof of God. The cure is n 60 www.revelations.iinet.net.au The Record is a extrapolation of my journey. (also I have been told that the (old) testament takes precedent over the (new) So carrying on from Exodus and proving creation is one big call (thus it requires a Cure to do so). Regards.

- there are so many cures for cancer it's a sad, sick pathetic joke given the number of people that die every day from it. Just another reason why some should fly a nuke into whatever building that symbolizes all the laws that support the Medical institutions, the FDA and the Pharmaceuticals that are murdering all these people for a lousy buck. (secret societies guaranteed)

panopticon - What I would point out is that Constantine first stopped religious persectution and then re-instigated it (from memory a decade later) to focus on the religions and cults that were very powerful at the time and at odds with both Christianity and his rule as Emperor.

- perfect example - they stopped killing people for being Christian after they 'took over' and simply started killing people for not falling under their 'brand' it is well known the Roman Vatican has probably killed more other non-Catholic Christians then any other institution in the history of the world (wake up call)

panopticon - 'The original painting of the last supper was painted 2000 years prior to the event happening'

- that would be 4,000 BC! haha I know, I know... just threw it in there... oops I even got that wrong - meant 2,000 BC double LOL

ghostrider - every culture looks to someone else to save them... they never look in the mirror .

- Ah, but what is the 'mirror'? (of our consciousness for example) you have hit on something bigger then you may know, I think you are on to something...

observer - The archeological record indicates that a regular pattern of rising and declining magnetosphere intensities are linked to an historic documentation of pole shifts. Right now the intensity of the magnetosphere is declining, and the poles are wandering at an unusual rate, see here.

- pole shift! although I wish it weren't true, how would we survive another?

[observer]

You won't get any argument from me regarding the Masonic Order, sigma6. I have spent the best part of my life denouncing these reptiles. I could send you down a rabbit hole that would take you years to find the depths of this obscenity. Suffice it to say, there is an hyperdimensional aspect to the Secret Society phenomenon that traces back to the beginning of our known civilization - and then further.

"Everything we think we know is a lie".

As far as pole-shifts are concerned, life, in one form or another, has survived the shifting poles over the millions of years this planet has endured them. I don't suppose there will be much change to this effect.

A mass extinction is one way of cleansing the planet of the surface irritation known as man.

Imagine how a mass extinction would be sort of a way to escape the traps the Archon/Reptiles have set-up to keep our eternal souls imprisoned here on this Reptilian Soul Farm.

Posted by observer (here)
Click-on forwarding arrow to see content of text

If you are clever enough, you just might get past those ol'Reptilian Prison Wardens while they are so busy trapping all those loose souls that just resulted from a mass extinction.

Ascension is just a telepathically implanted buzz-word for extinction.

[heyokah]

My dear observer, you brought me in this gloomy frame of mind

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=sjWMtQcNJXI

Sorry, gentlemen.

Back to topic

[sigma6]

I love it... touche... and to continue our musical interlude, here's some more Sarah...

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=6PPC7s2_Qh8

Where is the influence of the Roman Vatican today?
We could dedicate an entire forum to Roman Fascist Imperialism, it would take a lifetime to encapsulate the depth of their system, it's 'invisible' because we were born into it, as our parents, and their parents... it permeates Law, Science, Banking, Pharmacy, Military, Education, Economics, Media, Energy, History, Religion... There is a reason why we eat fake food, watch fake news, in between fake commercials, witnessed a fake moon landing, banks make us pay 300% interest for our own credit with a fake mortgage, soldiers killing innocent women and children for oil companies, brainwashed according to a false creed, we pray to a false God, controlled by a crime syndicate hiding behind a fake Government. People taking fake 'medicine' that kills millions annually. Did anyone know the head of the FBI was run by a closet homosexual, who wouldn't allow anyone in his dept to use the word 'mafia'? (Evidence of Revision) and that was in the 40s!)

We are all manipulated to some degree despite how comfortable some have made themselves in this prison. We are living so far below our actual economic and spiritual potential. All to support a hidden elite 1% of the population. Taxes and inflation isn't the half of it.

If people could see the big picture, there would be a bloody revolution. But wait! according to Benjamin Fulford there is! 140 countries against what is essentially the Trilateral Commission, aka Vatican Anglo-American Empire, aka NWO, aka Murder Inc, aka the Great Harlot, aka the Bride, aka Beatrix Kiddo, aka Black Mamba... oops scratch off those last three, was getting carried away there...

Here's an example how they 'orchestrate' the fake economy as part of their economic 'herding'..
New jobs report: unemployment rises and 70% chance of recession
https://winteryknight.wordpress.com/...-of-recession/
James Pethokoukis of the American Enterprise Institute explains:
Now isn't that the kicker? did you catch that punch line at the end? there's our problem! were not drilling enough oil wells! It's not a bunch of global elites controlling the government (for our benefit) holding back 6,000 patents that would be able to produce enough free energy for the entire planet and free people from slavery that is holding us back, NO... it's... those darn environmentalists!... we oughta do something about it... I'm calling my government representative right now!...

Oh, and one final thought

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=qRjQPth7fmA

[Hervé]

Little bits of iron in favor of the meteorite hypothesis:

http://alaskareport.com/news28/ned71...moth_tusks.htm


March 5, 2008
The mystery of mammoth tusks with iron fillings

By Ned Rozell
A giant meteor may have exploded over Alaska thousands of years ago, shooting out metal fragments like buckshot, some of which embedded in the tusks of woolly mammoths and the horns of bison. Simultaneously, a large chunk of the meteor hit Alaska south of Allakaket, sending up a dust cloud that blacked out the sun over the entire state and surrounding areas, killing most of the life in the area.

Embedded iron particles surrounded by carbonized rings in the outer layer of a mammoth tusk from Alaska. Inset photo shows how an object ripped through the tusk. Image courtesy Richard Firestone.

Such is the scenario envisioned by Rick Firestone, a staff scientist at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in California. Firestone and his colleagues have found mammoth tusks and a bison skull with nickel-rich iron particles in them on one side, suggesting the metal fragments all came from the same direction.

Firestone's theory emerged when his colleague, Alan West of Dewey, Arizona, saw at a Phoenix gem and mineral show a mammoth tusk peppered with tiny bits of metal. Intrigued, West and Firestone looked at tusks owned by the same dealer in Calgary. By passing a magnet over mammoth tusks in Calgary, Firestone and West found seven mammoth tusks collected somewhere near the Yukon River and a bison skull from Siberia that had tiny iron fragments burned into them. The fragments also contained nickel.

"One in 1,000 tusks had this material in it," Firestone said.

Firestone also thinks he may have found the divot left by the ancient meteorite, an impact crater that is now occupied by a round body of water named Sithylemenkat Lake in the upper Kanuti River drainage.

"The creeks coming out of the lake are very rich in nickel," Firestone said, referring to a metal associated with meteorites. "And the shape is consistent with a crater from a meteorite that may have been a half a kilometer in diameter.

***************************************************************
Alaskanews comment:

A meteorite that big would have torched anything within a 100-mile radius and could have buried the mammoths farther away from the crater, preserving the tusks struck by metal fragments. Firestone said the dust kicked up by the meteor would have eliminated any mammoths that survived the meteor's hit.

"There was probably 10,000 years with no mammoths," he said, adding that other mammoths eventually migrated back into Alaska.

Dale Guthrie, one of Alaska's few experts on mammoths, said he found Firestone's theory interesting, but Alaska scientists who know about impact craters think he is probably off on his guess that Sithylemenkat Lake is the place where a giant meteorite struck about 35,000 years ago (the approximate age of the mammoth tusks). Scientists have confirmed only one impact crater in Alaska.

Buck Sharpton, an expert on impact craters and the Vice Chancellor for Research at the University of Alaska Fairbanks, said the lake would have to be much older than 35,000 years because it has no rim associated with more recent impact craters and doesn't look to him like an impact crater. He thinks the iron bits in the tusks could be cavities filled by "being immersed for millennia in porous sedimentary fill through which iron-rich water percolated."

As for Sithylemenkat Lake, Gordon Herreid didn't mention a possible meteorite impact when he wrote a 1969 geology report on the lake for the state (which ordered the investigation because of possible nickel deposits there). Jan Cannon wrote in the journal Science in 1977 that the lake looked to be the only visible impact crater in Alaska based on a study of Landsat satellite images. One year later, William Patton of the U.S. Geological Survey argued in Science that glaciers, rather than a meteorite, created the lake.
© AlaskaReport News
********************************************************************

My comment:

Why would that presumed crater impact necessarily be in Alaska since the bison's skull is from Siberia?

[panopticon]

G'day Sigma6,

Take a deep breath my friend.

Firstly thanks for the reply -- I think...

I'd just like to point out that frozen Mammoths have also been found in Alaska and the Yukon region. It is the condition of the Siberian mammoths corpse that made them unique. Also, mammoth tusks have been found all over the place so it is the stable conditions (ie permafrost) of their entombment that preserved them.

Could you direct me to an article on the WW2 plane and the ice core as I found that very interesting and I can't find it elsewhere.

Oh, and yes I know that carbon-dating is sometimes questioned as to its validity for an argument. My point was to express my personal realisation that it may not have been a single event but that it could equally have been a large number of isolated cases.

I don't deny the possibility of pole shifts (both magnetic [well known and provable] and physical) and I personally have no problem with the case for evolutionary theory (nor for the case for non-human intervention in that evolution).

Yes I know about Hoover, the FBI, cross dressing and the mafia. Doesn't everyone?

It seems like you've got a whole lot of information and want to scream it to the mountain tops.
Please remember that you are not alone and many here (at Avalon) have information that could reinforce and/or add clarity to yours.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[panopticon]

G'day Amzer Zo,

Thanks for finding the article, it's really interesting.
So would this meteor (I am unsure as to how big the debris field is estimated at nor the size of the "meteor") be able to create the kind of "atmospheric sink hole" you were mentioning?
Maybe it exploded over head (this isn't unusual either) resulting in the shrapnel.
Also is there a layer in the geological record showing this?

I know you have more expertise in this than I do so am curious as to what you think.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[Hervé]

I was looking for something to the effect that an overhesd meteorite explosion would create a vortex plume that I read somewhere but cannot locate for now. However I found this, going along with the Electic Universe:


Feb 03, 2006
The Tunguska Event (2)
An Explanation that Works
It seems that scientific investigation has left the mystery of the fiery Tunguska explosion unresolved. From the beginning, the debate excluded the electric force, the one force that allows for a unified solution and excludes no field of evidence.


[...]

Reports of strange weather before the event.
In an electric solar system electric currents flowing between the solar plasma and the planets are the primary factors driving Earth’s weather patterns. In fact, the most violent winds occur on planets most distant from the Sun, where solar heating is negligible. Ice-cold Neptune, the gas giant farthest from Earth, has 2,000 km/h winds! When seen in these terms, it becomes clear that an electrical disturbance might be evident in the form of unusual weather days before the arrival of a comet.

[...]

Global atmospheric pressure pulse.
The Earth’s atmosphere forms the dielectric of a capacitor with the two "plates" of the capacitor being the Earth and the ionosphere. The comet's electrical disturbance will cause pressure pulses in the atmosphere before the comet arrives as well as upon arrival. It is noteworthy in this respect that a giant ionospheric disturbance accompanied the magnitude 9.3 Sumatra earthquake of 26 December 2004. The ionosphere moved up and down by about 40 km! And changes in the ionosphere have been registered 5 to 10 days before an earthquake.

************************************************************

So, if the pressure on the atmosphere is adequate to push it away, then there is no oxygen to start/maintain tree/vegetation fires and the ground is opened to "space deep freeze."

I'll keep looking for that vortex thing.

[panopticon]

G'day Again Amzer Zo,

I was having a look for information on the Sithylemenkat Lake and came across this article that may be of interest:
Meteorite Impact Craters

Here's one to do with the mammoths that was presented at the 2008 Tunguska conference:
Micrometeorite Impacts in Beringian Mammoth Tusks and a Bison Skull.

I'm finding this really interesting. Thanks to everyone who is participating.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

PS I thought Tunguska was all Tesla's fault...

[sigma6]

Panopticon, hope I wasn't overly projecting on you, was just writing based on what I see and hear and read and the things that jump out at me as a result. Still going through your links but just keeping the speculation open on these Mammoths as I do find it quite interesting... I don't see anything as conclusive or definitive. I do bias towards a pole shift, so I just put that out there for reference...

I'd just like to point out that frozen Mammoths have also been found in Alaska and the Yukon region.

Well I would consider that close enough to Siberia, if you look at it from above without borders it could easily fit within a quadrant of the globe, but yes I take your meaning, they were found still intact because of the cold climes, granted. I think the focus is the vegetation issue, which relates to the speed of death. And also the propensity of correlation between samples, ie. I don't think it is typical or probable that every Mammoth found should have just been grazing with food in it's mouth seconds before it's death. Also even supposing there are individual deaths at different times would make finding that particular set of circumstances even more unlikely.

For example, that would be like a homocide detective finding several bodies, from different locations and times but each one having a half melted ice cream in their hand. This would pose a question regarding probability of such an event being statistically non-random, and if so, would in turn lead to a search for an extraneous variable, then correlation and speculation as to causal relationship, etc. But I haven't looked at enough info yet... so everything is speculation to me! or sometimes one is able to find 'logical proofs' (can save time)

Could you direct me to an article on the WW2 plane and the ice core as I found that very interesting and I can't find it elsewhere.

Speaking of which, Kent Hovind has YouTube seminars about the age of the earth and takes a creationist interpretation opposing evolution, has a 'literal' take on the Bible (or as literal as one can get) But interprets the days of creation being a 1000 years and bases his premises on that. He has interesting arguments regarding various subjects ie. archaeological info, dinosaurs, etc. I came across the WWII plane in one of those. It had to do with a study extrapolating the age of ice in core samples by counting layers within the cores and correlating that with seasonal changes, simple enough. Then, apparently the ice melted and the plane was exposed. I guess the point is had the plane not turned up, there probably would have been no way to convince these 'scientists' that their calculations and theory were incorrect. Now that is a logical proof! In this case it was also an example that breaks down this 'cartoon' image we have about scientists and their 'theories'... almost as bad as the blind faith exhibited in following religious figures - fallible humans, they rationalize, deny, have biases, etc. just like anyone else. Anyhow I will see if I can pick out which one I watched, I remember it was quite long.

Oh, and yes I know that carbon-dating is sometimes questioned as to its validity for an argument. My point was to express my personal realisation that it may not have been a single event but that it could equally have been a large number of isolated cases.

Again I was trying to point out the possibility of a broader pattern, as described above. But also I am just questioning all of these rather complex analyses, that when knowledge becomes so specialized a majority has to rely on a very limited number to interpret information, we all know what usually happens, pointing this out as another example of where we could be more critical when looking at information presented.

Yes I know about Hoover, the FBI, cross dressing and the mafia. Doesn't everyone?

And finally I didn't know everyone was onto Hoover, now we just need people to draw the implication of where their tax dollars are going, and do the right thing. Imagine if everyone just stopped supporting such organized crime, would bring the rats out of the woodwork, people would be ousted within weeks, now that would be a dream worth voting for.

[cloud9]

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by observer (here)
The problem with the rest of what you say is that the lie Satan created, the Roman sponsored religion, Trinity Christianity was one of Satan's best works. It created nearly two thousand years of obscene pain and suffering under the rule of the Holy Roman Empire, Catholicism.

......

You will clearly see that Yashu was telling us that we all can be 'Sons of God'. You will also gain a clear understanding that Yashu was excluding himself from the god of the Old Testament, Jehovah/Yahweh whom Yashu referred to as the Devil.

Gnosticism could not cope with God of the Old Testament

who once flooded the whole earth incinerated Sodom and Gomorrah made war against the Nephilim in Canaan and gave mankind the Ten Commandments writ in stone

while Catholicism embraced and incorporated God of the Old Testament as the God of gods and men and the Father of Jesus Christ


so in Catholicism Israel and the Jews are not devil worshippers

The god that flooded earth and all the rest of nasty stuff is not my God.... it's not GOD!

[Hervé]

Hi Panopticon,

Good find with the linked article.

Found the article I had in mind re vortex but it's a computer modelling of an air burst and which wouldn't work for a vortex of "deep space" reaching the ground... would work for fire and brimstones though...

http://craterhunter.wordpress.com/th...act-structure/

On another hand, who would have thought that Europe's "Dark Ages" were the results of European countries being pumelled with meteorite showers and the skies darken with cometary dust...

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/22...an-We-Imagined-

[panopticon]

G'day All,

Thanks to Amzer Zo for the links and Sigma6 for the information.
Yes, I agree that we need to look at the mammoth freezing from a number of perspectives and I am open to all ideas in relation to that.
I look at evidence and then come to a personal conclusion based on that evidence, others can look at the same evidence and come to a different one and I have no problem with that.

It occurred to me in the wee small hours of the morning that part of the problem some may be having with the mammoth freezing story is the intact vegetation found in the stomach of the mammoths.
I would point out, apologies to those who already know this, that herbivores have a different digestive tract to carnivores.

From an article (taken at random in a search) on the elephants digestive tract (as it's the closest to the mammoth):

The muscular oesophagus ushers the food into the stomach, which acts more as a storage sac as not much digestion takes place in this organ. The elephant’s stomach is cylindrical in shape and the middle of the organ is particularly glandular. From here, food is ushered into the extraordinarily long intestines. The intestine of an elephant can reach up to 19 metres in length!

The intestine is where most of the digestion of the vegetative diet takes place. At the point at which the small intestine meets the large one (or colon), bacteria aids in the fermentative digestion of the cellulose (typical of this diet). This location is called the caecum and is particularly rich in blood vessels. The caecum is divided into many smaller sacs and the products of digestion are absorbed through its relatively thin walls.

Because the elephant only digests and makes good use of 40% of its intake, the intestine is also instrumental in the formation or faeces and the efficient absorption of water. The size of the faeces is often used to determine the age of the elephant as it retains the shape formed by the walls of the rectum, indicating its size.

Because the elephant absorbs so few nutrients from the food it ingests, the dung is rich in nutrients and solid food matter. Therefore, it is beneficial to many other animals, as they are able to feed off of the relatively untouched constituents of the faeces. Common beneficiaries include dung beetles and many species of bird.

And from here:

Elephants are non-ruminants, meaning the food is fermented after it has been digested by the stomach (hindgut fermentation), and is pushed through the gut at a rapid rate. Because the contact time the fermented food has with the absorptive surfaces of the intestines is limited, non-ruminants are not able to extract as many nutrients from the food. These animals compensate the nutrient loss by eating greater quantities and are capable of eating lower quality vegetation.

I apologise to everyone who already knew this but thought it worthwhile to point out as it has a bearing on understanding that the contents of a mammoth's stomach would not have started to break down, that happens later in their digestive cycle (the stomach acts more like a storage container), and that most of the intestinal content would be fibrous and full of seeds (ie only partly broken down).
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

Addendum:

Posted by sigma6 (here)
I don't think it is typical or probable that every Mammoth found should have just been grazing with food in it's mouth seconds before it's death. Also even supposing there are individual deaths at different times would make finding that particular set of circumstances even more unlikely.

Large herbivores eat almost constantly to be able to extract sufficient nutrients from their low nutrient food sources.
They walk along and graze constantly.
So the likelihood that a mammoth at any given time would have food in its mouth is, in my opinion, fairly high.

[Hervé]

Still no data about the salad but more about the meat:

From: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...ats-for-dinner

According to Richard Stone's book Mammoth (2001), Russian zoologist Alexei Tikhonov (who figures in articles about the recent Siberian find) once tried a bite and said "it was awful. It tasted like meat left too long in a freezer."

With this in mind, it makes sense that the most legit claims of dining on prehistoric meat don't involve big juicy sirloins but rather the odd edible chunk or two. And so to dad's contention, Garth: The Explorers Club, a venerable association of heavy-duty scientists and adventure hounds, is best known to the public for its Annual Dinner, when members converge on New York, break out the finery, and tuck into a menu stocked with thrill-seeker fare - tarantula, scorpion, and the like. According to club archivist Clare Flemming, the 1951 fete did in fact feature mammoth, but only as part of the preprandial smorgasbord, not as an entree; a review of the event in the Christian Science Monitor describes a morsel of meat supposedly recovered from Akutan Island, in the Aleutians. (Other delicacies included green turtle soup, giant Pacific spider crabs, bison steak, and cheese straws, which if nothing else suggests that in 1950s Manhattan cheese straws were considered a lot more exotic than they are today.) Flemming also found correspondence in which paleontologist Coleman Williams mentions (apropos of his tenure on the club's dinner committee) preparing a dish from balls of marrow found in the bones of a 50,000-year-old horse.

One of the best-documented accounts of a prehistoric meal comes at the end of Frozen Fauna of the Mammoth Steppe (1990), by Alaska zoology professor Dale Guthrie. After successfully unearthing and preserving "Blue Babe," a 36,000-year-old steppe bison found near Fairbanks in 1979, Guthrie's team celebrates by simmering some leftover flesh from Babe's neck "in a pot of stock and vegetables." The author reports that "the meat was well aged but still a little tough, and it gave the stew a strong Pleistocene aroma." Now, I'm all for scientific esprit de corps, and I'm not by nature an incurious sort, but I'll say right now I don't see the appeal. Let's keep it simple: frozen meat from tundra = specimen; frozen meat from freezer = dinner. Study the mammoths and eat the burgers, and anyone who craves that great prehistoric taste can wash 'em down with Tab.
— Cecil Adams