The Bible

[crested-duck]

The following found here: http://www.ucadia.com/uca/u01/010400.htm

The journey of UCA







On so many levels humans live such isolated lives from one another. Separate houses, separate friends, neighborhoods, jobs, titles, and incomes. Separate seats, separate cars, train carriages. Separate desks, separate beliefs, separate ideas.







Yet what if we could find common ground? What if I could find unity between the belief systems that separate Moslem and Jew? What if you could re-discover the unity between the ideas of the East and west?, the links between Science and Religion?, the common genetic heritage between Caucasian and Negro?







Such unity presents such hope, yet remains so unrealistic in the isolated world in which we live.







The undeniable common sense hidden under labels







Yet what if re-looked at the wisdom embedded in the combined knowledge and ideas of humanity, the undeniable common sense? Then what if the labels that surround and cloud common sense were removed? such as the labels Science and Philosophy and then brought it together in one document?







This is the purpose of this web site, a collection of the common sense of humanity regarding answers to the timeless and essential questions of who, or what created the Universe? Why was the Universe created? For what purpose does it operate?







This web site answers these questions and links these answers from the beginning of the Universe, the formation of galaxies and planets, the beginning of the first life forms on Earth, through to you the individual reading this book.







Ucadia.com describes the synergies and beautiful simplicity that exists between objects all around us, that cycles and patterns occur at every level- that they are the same patterns







Bringing people together







When removed from their ownership and their labels, these pieces of wisdom shine when connected to the wisdom and common sense of former enemies. The wisdom of the East helps make sense of the common sense of the west. The philosophy helps understand the science.







That is why this web site does not label each and every piece of common sense as "mine", "yours" or "theirs". There is no line drawn between what understandings emerge now, versus common sense and wisdom that is thousands of years old.







For rather than seeking to isolate certain people and ideas, this web site seeks to highlight the common sense that exists between all of humanity- common sense that once revealed and structured shows that everyone is right and wrong to some degree

[RedeZra]

there will be peace and unity

when the devil and his spirits

are cast into the lake of fire

together with his human servants


but before that

the Great tribulation


the devil is defeated already

he just doesn't know it yet

[RedeZra]

the problem of evil

will vanish with the devil


and so will we if we are part of this problem


God did not destroy the devil right away

as God do not annihilate angels at the moment of mistake


God is good and long-suffering

and would want all to stop sinning


since sin separates us from God

[crested-duck]

Red, and all members----I have no axe to grind, just showing the other side of the coin and laying all the cards on the table for each to decide for themselves what they want to accept or believe as fact or fiction !!---Rob

[greybeard]

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by greybeard (here)
I suppose where I have a concern is that is implied that The Bible is the only book that carries the word of God.

What about the Bagavadgita and the Koran just to mention two?

good question Chris

who was the inspiration behind the Bhagavad Gita and the Quran ?


spirits

they are playing with us

Respectfully you are giving a personal opinion Red with no way of giving some evidence that this is so.

I could say the same of the Bible though I believe some parts of it escaped "alteration"
There is plenty evidence it has been changed by intent and mistranslation.

The early Vatican has a history of violence and was in charge of The Bible so commonsense would say that they were well up to portarying the word in a way that suited them, they used it to promote fear and control the population.

Honestly Red you sound as though you have been brainwashed by a fundamentalist group.
Obviously you have researched and read deeply but so do fundamentalists and they have caused a lot of friction and worse in the world.

Even approaching the whole subject with a rational, open mind would lead one to say of other non Christian paths Well I dont know the truth of it, they may or may not be correct in their belief, but at least they teach love of God and fellow man.

I have no doubt of your love and integrity Red I just think your view is a trifle narrow.

With love for you
Chris

[kreagle]

Posted by observer (here)
The major problem within this thread is this:

• Most of the Biblical supporters are commenting from a faith-based perspective.
  
• While most of those speaking against the validity of the Bible are commenting from a factual perspective.

The point that very little of what the Bible reflects as factual history can be verified by actual historic events, as revealed in archaeological discoveries, is the basis for any critically thinking individual to question the factual accuracy of the Bible.

• Allowing faith to guide your belief systems IS NOT what Avalon is about.
• Following the evidence - regardless of where it leads - is the purpose of the Avalon Forum.

I will offer several more links, beyond the many I've already offered, for those wishing to follow the evidence.

• What was the Persian Empire, and what were they all about?
  http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...giudice-text/1
  Take careful note of the first paragraph of this article. (By all means, read the entire article)
  Try to imagine how and where there was any mistreatment of Hebrews within the context of this Persian empire.
  
  
• Watch, further, this documentary on the history of the Persian Empire:
  https://youtube.com/watch?v=uP9bmTstvR4
  Pay particular attention to what is said at 6 min: 11 sec. Keep in mind this Persian Empire is the very Empire depicted in the Old Testament as the Babylonian Captivity.
  
  
• And, finally, with regard to the current off-topic debate regarding the validly of the "right" of the Israeli State to exit, watch this video regarding the source and heritage of the Zionist movement:
  https://youtube.com/watch?v=66zOg...C9CBE40E6FCFDC
  Allow the playlist to continue thru to the end.

observer,


Let's see,........"Faith-based" Perspective.....vs......"Factual" Perspective


Factual Perspective,.......from "whose" standards?,....."mankind's"? Are we talking about the same "mankind",.....(ie. scientists, astronomers, physicists,.....and the list goes on....), that "constantly" has to "update and revise" their information every "decade or so"? You want me,.....and others,......to unconditionally rely on "facts" that are constantly "evolving"?

(note to readers......)

Don't you just love it when the "intellectuals of this world" have "once again",......painted themselves into a corner,......and forced to admit that their "latest calculations,....or information" are wrong,....or need to be "updated,....or revised"?

And they do it with such impunity! Evidently they must have spent too much time on the "golf course",.......for they "expect" us to even grant them a "mulligan" in this "latest error",.....also!!

Of course,....."wisdom" tells us that,....."we all make mistakes",....right? Consequently, in wisdom,....we forgive them. We are then grateful to have "updated information" that hopefully is more reliable than the "former information". That' just the way it is folks! It's been that way since the "dawning of time",......and it's going to remain that way. Like it, or not,......that's "our lot in life",.....and we better just get use to it!


Now,....let's see, again,........Faith-Based,......or.......Factual based,......"perspective"?


Hebrews 11:6
King James Version (KJV)

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Also.......


Hebrews 10:37-39
King James Version (KJV)

37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

(in conclusion)

observer,.......you sir,.....miss the point "entirely".

You declare that you perceive to know what "Avalon is about,.....and it's purpose"

My,....and other Avalonians, understanding is that,........Avalon is a place to "search out Truth",......and to share and discuss "all" avenues pertaining to this quest for Truth.

There are "areas and topics" on Avalon that I, personally, have no interest in,.....so consequently I stay away from them,.....and have "no comments" on them.

The "Bible" is NOT one of those topics. I have a great interest in IT!

You need to realize that "facts",.....do indeed,.....crumble, fall,.....and need to be periodically updated. It's because they are "manufactured",......man-made. There are "those" who say,......"Well science proves,......this, etc.",.....to which I reply,......NO,....it's our perception of science,....at that "current moment of time",.....that convinces us it "proves" the point. At another "point in time",.....down the road,......we come to the realization that "updated information",.....now,....."proves otherwise".

"Facts",......eventually require altering!

"Faith",......properly placed!,......will never let you down!!!


Love and Peace,........kreagle

[truthseekerdan]

“All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree.”

-- Albert Einstein

One of the greatest fact that quantum physicist has discovered is the concept of oneness or of one being. Oneness is not actually a concept, which to be more accurate, it is being, the highest level of consciousness. If you can truly grasp this, you will understand that there is truly only one being, the Oneness which has chosen to individualize itself for the purposes of experiencing the differences.

So the difference between you and the person sitting next to you is just an illusion. The One individualized itself so that it could experience and discover itself; it couldn’t do it if it stays as one. We are all connected and that’s why before you hurt someone, think of the consequences; you are the very next person beside you. And this is how cause and effect comes into the scene, through interconnectedness. Understanding this concept will enable you to see how all things are connected and instead of seeing them as coincidence, you will accept them as miracle. You synchronize all the things that happen in your life even things that does not seem to please you.

Read more here

[RedeZra]

Posted by greybeard (here)

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by greybeard (here)
I suppose where I have a concern is that is implied that The Bible is the only book that carries the word of God.

What about the Bagavadgita and the Koran just to mention two?

good question Chris

who was the inspiration behind the Bhagavad Gita and the Quran ?


spirits

they are playing with us

Respectfully you are giving a personal opinion Red with no way of giving some evidence that this is so.

yes but it is an informed opinion


God sent His Son for the whole world

and it is always Jesus who comes through to help and heal people today


where are the testimonies about Allah Krishna Buddha ?

[greybeard]

The ultimate Truth is "Only God is"

Jesus pointed to it when he said "I am the way"
Each seeming individual can say without fear of contradiction "I am" as in I exist.
As Dan and others pointed to, there is no division all are One.

Without disregarding Holy books including the Bible--- you will not find God in them -- they can only point to the Truth.
God is found within as testified to by Jesus--- The Father and I are One.
I cant debate the Bible but from personal experience I can say that the Love arose with me when healing others.
I did not do it but I felt it within before the healing happened.
Of myself I do nothing.
Every healing was asked for through the Grace of God.
I am Kundalini awakened by that Grace ( The Devil does not do healing, why would he. He likes pain and misery)

Its possible to know the Bible or other Holy books off by heart but "Even the wisest of my disciples enter the kingdom by faith alone. Jesus said if I remember correctly.
Millions of all faiths got sober in AA by surrendering their will to the will of God-- I know Im one.
Step 3 of AA "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him"
11th step of AA
"Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will and the power to carry that out."
12th step
"Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps we tried to carry the message to alcoholics and to practise these principals in all our affairs."

Every sober alcoholic is a walking miracle and by the Grace of God I am sober a day at a time.

Chris

[heyokah]

****

Truth - Believe .... Fact - Faith


What is Truth? .... Or when is something Truth?
When just one individual believes something to be true, that alone does not make it false.


Is Religion a positive or necessary force in our lives, or a dangerous and outmoded delusion?
Succinctly put, religion can be defined as hope without evidence.... Faith without Fact


"... in science there is no 'knowledge', in the sense in which Plato and Aristotle understood the word, in the sense which implies finality; in science, we never have sufficient reason for the belief that we have attained the truth. ...
This view means, furthermore, that we have no proofs in science (excepting, of course, pure mathematics and logic).
In the empirical sciences, which alone can furnish us with information about the world we live in, proofs do not occur, if we mean by 'proof' an argument which establishes once and for ever the truth of a theory."

Sir Karl Popper, The Problem of Induction, 1953



"To Believe or Not To Believe....That Is The Question...."

****

[greybeard]

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by greybeard (here)

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by greybeard (here)
I suppose where I have a concern is that is implied that The Bible is the only book that carries the word of God.

What about the Bagavadgita and the Koran just to mention two?

good question Chris

who was the inspiration behind the Bhagavad Gita and the Quran ?


spirits

they are playing with us

Respectfully you are giving a personal opinion Red with no way of giving some evidence that this is so.

yes but it is an informed opinion


God sent His Son for the whole world

and it is always Jesus who comes through to help and heal people today


where are the testimonies about Allah Krishna Buddha ?

Respectfully Red
I think everyone who has contributed to your thread has an informed opinion.
It is always God who heals or saves--- so as Jesus and God are one there is no contradiction on those who call on another name of God for healing or saving--- its all One.

With Love
Chris

[observer]

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by observer (here)
[*]Watch, further, this documentary on the history of the Persian Empire:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=uP9bmTstvR4
Pay particular attention to what is said at 6 min: 11 sec. Keep in mind this Persian Empire is the very Empire depicted in the Old Testament as the Babylonian Captivity.

the Babylonian captivity ended because Cyrus the Great the founder of the Achaemenid Persian Empire conquered a successor of Nebuchadnezzar II and the Neo-Babylonian Empire

Cyrus the Great let the Jews go home and rebuild the Second Temple

As a note to the historic record, it was a Babylonian King, Amel-Marduk, the son and successor of Nebuchadnezzar II, who released King Jeconiah from prison in Babylon, and, after his release, Jeconiah never return to Judah

Once again, Red, you missed the point completely....

The Babylonian Empire occupied much of the same territory as the Persian Empire. In fact, many scholars include the Neo-Babylonian Empire (sometimes called the Chaldean Empire) into the early period of the Persian Empire. We're only speaking of a span of fourty years, here.

It would be similar to saying National Socialism began in Germany with Hitler. We all know and understand the National Socialist movement has its roots in the German elite culture in the mid eighteen hundreds, long before Hitler.

What were the principals and philosophies of the Persian Empire? Were they the same well accepted philosophies within the Chaldean (Babylonian) Empire?

[See here - scroll-down to Jeconiah's reign]
"The intention was to take high class Judean captives and assimilate them into Babylonian society. On March 15/16th, 597 BCE, Jeconiah, his entire household and three thousand prestigious Jews, were exiled to Babylon."

The Hebrews brought the Babylonian Captivity on themselves by revolting. In the beginning, it was only King Jeconiah and some of the elite of Judah.

I'm not saying the captivity was the right thing to do, I'm saying the Bible got the understanding twisted. The Babylonian Captivity turned ugly for the nation of Judah because the populace revolted. That's what happens to populations in Empire Building. It's not about the "poor suffering Jews". It's about what they brought onto themselves.

And thus, because you can only see the Biblical side of the story, your perspective is all misconstrued, also....

I keep showing you the evidence that the Old Testament is a fabrication of reality, and you continue to reject that evidence because it doesn't fit your paradigm.

Faith v. Fact.... fact prevails every time.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by observer (here)
Beckford's work goes a long way in presenting evidence the Bible is the clever manipulation by hyperdimensional entities, through the skillful use of mental telepathy for the purpose of enslaving the soul of the Human species - an objective interpretation of the mass of evidence to this conclusion.

every major and minor religion has been inspired by hyperdimensional entities or spirits

also the Bible

which is inspired by the Spirit or God

EXACYLY my point, Red.


....and, that Spirit of God represented in the Old Testament is not who you think he is:

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

You've been hoodwinked, Red....

[GCS1103]

I think everyone here makes good points and arguments for their beliefs, based on their studies and research. Spirituality is such a personal and sensitive subject, yet I find that everyone who contributes here does so with respect for each other. Well, maybe some get a little frustrated by Red, but he comes here with love and what better motive is there than that? Personally, I have great respect for the posts that you all take time to write and I read them all. There is something about this thread that I find gratifying- even with all the different belief systems we have. Maybe because at the heart of it all, there is a common theme that loving and caring about one another is of the utmost importance.

[gripreaper]

Posted by observer (here)
I keep showing you the evidence that the Old Testament is a fabrication of reality, and you continue to reject that evidence because it doesn't fit your paradigm.

Which is why I no longer engage Red. He wont look at the facts. His paradigm is absolute, and there is no room in an absolute belief paradigm for the truth.

[Unified Serenity]

Oh, I dunno, I think Red is a good representative of a large portion of bible believers. He and I are rarely in a lot of agreement, but I respect him and appreciate our exchanges. It's rather pleasent to have a discussion with him even if we disagree.

[kreagle]

observer,

Either you haven't read my post, (#1426),.... and reply to you,.....or you've chosen to ignore it.

If you have chosen the latter,......that will be "your" loss,.......not mine.



I have not always agreed with "RedeZra" on certain Biblical issues,....and I've made that perfectly clear to him on this particular "thread". However,....on "this issue",.....where he has proclaimed that,....."the Bible is inspired by the Spirit, or God",.....I will stand solidly in his corner, in complete agreement. (note: RedeZra's post is #1420, regarding this,......and I, kreagle, stand as the lone "thank you" to his short proclamation.)



2 Peter 1:20-21
King James Version (KJV)

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

First, and foremost, observer,.....God does not give you,...or your "theologian of choice" His permission to "privately interpret" His Word,....to fit YOUR "paradigm"!


You, observer, and your "theologian of choice" claim that,..... either "portions", or perhaps "all",.....of the Old Testament have proven to be,...." a fabrication of reality",....and that someone, other than God,.....is It's author. You go on to say that you've got,......."facts"!

This would be an "excellent place" for you to read my post (#1426),.....concerning the "constantly evolving nature",......of "facts". If you say that "they" don't evolve,....and periodically require "updating",.....then you have been an extremely "poor student" involving the "observation" of mankind.

Here is "another" Scriptural warning for mankind to "not" get too carried away with "his facts"


Proverbs 14:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.


observer,.....I have shared,...(on more than one occasion),.....my personal "experience" in "my own upper room" 31 years ago,.....where I, too, was filled with the Holy Ghost and "born again" of the water and the Spirit. You and your "theologian" have come entirely too late,.....to tell me that His Word is "faulty" and altered. My "experience" has made me a "new creature", in Christ Jesus. Since then,.... My understanding of His Word has "blown away", even, my wildest imagination. His Spirit is an excellent Teacher,....."if" you will allow Him to teach you!


(in conclusion)


"Observers",.......elevate themselves,......they watch,........they "observe"

"Believers",........"abase" themselves,......they "obey",.......then they "experience"


It's always been that way!,.......I sincerely hope you don't "watch" your "experience",....."slip away"!


Love and Peace,.......kreagle

[kreagle]

error in posting,......deleted by kreagle

[observer]

Posted by kreagle (here)
observer,

Either you haven't read my post, (#1426),.... and reply to you,.....or you've chosen to ignore it.

kreagle, my delusional friend,

I have read your post #1426, along with most of your other comments in this thread, and I have chosen to ignore them.

Your point regarding science being in an ever changing flux is exactly the point of science.

The world was once flat and the center of the universe. Anyone who didn't believe that was burned at the stake by the very church that created this false dogma, the Bible.

....Which is the impression I get when I read one of your comments - that if you had your way, anyone who speaks-out as I am doing in this thread, should be burned at the stake.

Your ranting-on, much like a zealot priest at an inquisition, bears no evidence other than the hear-say of your personal testimony. Which, by the way, looks very much like the parking lot down at Al the Appliance King's annual blow-out sale day, with an overabundance of red, white, and blue pennant flags. After reading one of your comments, I'm left with the question, "what is this guy trying to sell"?

My debate with Red is regarding the validity of the Bible as "God's Word".

The evidence I provide is proof enough the words in this book have been cleverly manipulated to enslave the Masses. This is the agenda of the Bible. Have you even listened to any of the videos I've posted?

Your continued rambling-on espousing Bible verses is no proof, or evidence that those verses were not the clever manipulation of an hyperdimensional telepathic thought control agenda.

Other than your faith in this dogma, what proof do you offer that these words are the word of God.... And, what proof do you offer the God of the Old Testament is not some sort of demigod, as Yeshua ben Joseph taught in his mission? Have you studied the books that were banned from the Bible. They were discovered in the desert of Egypt at Nag Hammadi in 1945 after nearly two thousand years of unmolested rest.

How many translations, transliterations, edits, redactions, modifications, deletions, rewrites, does the book you call "The Word of God" have attached to it?

When you have reviewed the evidence I have offered in the past, and when you have calmed-down your writing style, I may pay some attention to what you have to say....

[kreagle]

Posted by observer (here)

Posted by kreagle (here)
observer,

Either you haven't read my post, (#1426),.... and reply to you,.....or you've chosen to ignore it.

kreagle, my delusional friend,

I have read your post #1426, along with most of your other comments in this thread, and I have chosen to ignore them.

Your point regarding science being in an ever changing flux is exactly the point of science.

The world was once flat and the center of the universe. Anyone who didn't believe that was burned at the stake by the very church that created this false dogma, the Bible.

....Which is the impression I get when I read one of your comments - that if you had your way, anyone who speaks-out as I am doing in this thread, should be burned at the stake.

Your ranting-on, much like a zealot priest at an inquisition, bears no evidence other than the hear-say of your personal testimony. Which, by the way, looks very much like the parking lot down at Al the Appliance King's annual blow-out sale day, with an overabundance of red, white, and blue pennant flags. After reading one of your comments, I'm left with the question, "what is this guy trying to sell"?

My debate with Red is regarding the validity of the Bible as "God's Word".

The evidence I provide is proof enough the words in this book have been cleverly manipulated to enslave the Masses. This is the agenda of the Bible. Have you even listened to any of the videos I've posted?

Your continued rambling-on espousing Bible verses is no proof, or evidence that those verses were not the clever manipulation of an hyperdimensional telepathic thought control agenda.

Other than your faith in this dogma, what proof do you offer that these words are the word of God.... And, what proof do you offer the God of the Old Testament is not some sort of demigod, as Yeshua ben Joseph taught in his mission? Have you studied the books that were banned from the Bible. They were discovered in the desert of Egypt at Nag Hammadi in 1945 after nearly two thousand years of unmolested rest.

How many translations, transliterations, edits, redactions, modifications, deletions, rewrites, does the book you call "The Word of God" have attached to it?

When you have reviewed the evidence I have offered in the past, and when you have calmed-down your writing style, I may pay some attention to what you have to say....

observer, my "unbelieving friend",

I won't spend a great deal of time, here, with my response,......for it is painfully clear to me that you've pretty much "made up your mind" and convinced yourself that there is NO GOD. Before you charge me with,....."putting words in your mouth",......you need to take a look, again, at your overall statements. When you proclaim that we are all being deceived by this,......"false dogma, the Bible",......then you are, in reality, denying the very existence of God. To deny one,....."His Word",.....is to deny the other,......"HIM",.......for the "TWO are inseparable".

I was not speaking of "science", only,.....in reference to its "changing flux". I've made that clear in my post. "All" facts,......ultimately "crowned so by man",......are subject to being "periodically updated" as deemed necessary. I fully understand that there a "few" classifications of "facts" that have stood firm for a great deal of time. However,.....as soon as "we" are foolishly inclined to "set them in granite",.....("they" have reached the infallible state in "our" minds),....suddenly,....."new data" appears on the horizon,.....and we are, once again, required to "alter our thinking" and update our files. We,.....are human,.....after all!

"If" you are feeling any "potential heat" from an "imaginary burning at the stake",.....then you might want to seek out the "source" of where this heat is "coming from"! I have never belonged to,.... or a member of,.... the "church" who has such a documented history of such atrocities against mankind,....so it's not me. It certainly sounds more plausible that the "heat" you may be currently feeling is in "direct correlation" to your stance,.....that being the elimination of God and His Word. I "prayerfully" hope that you will "wake up" soon and take advantage of the "mercy of God",.....NOW,.....before the "heat" becomes a reality,.....LATER!

The "just" shall live by "faith".


As "always",......Love and Peace,.........kreagle


Edit: (point for consideration)

observer,

Unfortunately,....we all have "foxhole" moments in life, where things really go awry in our personal lives. That's just life,.....and it's during "those times" that we really,.....desperately need,.....deep down help that can be totally relied upon. I have supplied a link from a "previous post", here on Avalon,.....dealing with this very same subject. I prayerfully request that you click on it,.....read it,.....and simply to consider it.

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...618#post470618


I am "not" your enemy, my friend!


I am your "servant",...........kreagle

[trenairio]

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