Bible Topics and Questions

[kreagle]

Hey modwiz,

Good to see you 'poking your head in the door', brother! You've always seemed to add a great deal of insight in many topics that I've seen, so I hope that you'll try to make yourself 'more available here' as much as you can!


God bless you, brother!,............kreagle

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

[QUOTE=kreagle;552880]

As I've said at the onset of this thread,.....this is NOT my topic/thread,.....it's OURS!,....it's YOURS, too,

Hehe, thanks for that. Just wanted assure you nonetheless that I wasn;t going to be wandering too far from the thread subject matter, that's all

Too many today, (without realizing it), have allowed themselves to reach a pinnacle in their own individual lives by adopting the view that they have 'fully arrived' in their quest of learning/wisdom. Consequently they 'turn off' or reject new ideas, or concepts, before they fully investigate them. This is very tragic, in that this never allows any, or very few, 'seeds of truth' to germinate in their lives and to come to fruition.

Couldn't agree more, my friend, and couldn't have said it better. There is a trap contained in any Spiritual knowledge that is conveyed to us lowly Earth Beings. It is this: sometimes one may become so impressed with the revelation, the material, that we plateau in our understanding and are blinded to all else.

In truth, the pursuit of wisdom never ends.

I have studied many, many philosophies and religions (not on a professional level however), and in my opinion they all possess wisdom and virtue, some more than others of course.

My view of Christianity – all religion (and I have no intention whatsoever in criticizing or attacking, this is just statement of my personal belief...) is that religious doctrine whether it was written onto the page by God or not, is and always has been controlled by Man nonetheless. Man is a distorting creature, one shaped, predisposed to distortion – ego – which invariably directs his actions.

Man is far from a pure Being. If he were, Jesus would not have needed to walk here. Man contaminates all that he touches. Thus, what we have with the Bible, particularly now after 2,000 long years, is in my opinion a diluted account – or at the very least an account which contains enough semantic variation to manoeuvre one’s thought into a distorted interpretation.

That is merely how I view the nature of orthodoxy/canon. It must be noted that letters, words language is a highly delicate tool, a simple word here or there changing the entire context. There are multiple versions of the Biblical text, laid down by multiple individuals, decreed and re-ordered by multiple Ecumenical Councils – politicized, culturalized… diluted.

At the end of the day, my friends, all the incontinuities between the Old Testament God and the New is, personally speaking, of no concern to my thought process. Who begat who isn’t of interest. Whether the formation on Mount Ararat is really Noah’s Ark or petrified wood is irrelevant. Minutia does not really matter to me.

Details Do Not Matter.

All that does matter is the teachings of the Spiritual Masters, in the Christian world or outside of it. All that matters to me in the Bible is the example of Jesus and the life that he led: the purity of the wisdom; in love, sacrifice, and forgiveness... If only the Bishops, Popes, Priests, Holy Men, and the Fundamentalists, had over the last 2,000 years invested their time wholly on that which was given, rather than distorting, contesting, politicizing, and branching this way and that with their various creeds and denominations, then what of division, persecution, schism and war would we have seen over the years?

Too much evil has been done over the years by way of Human Distortion, and in the name of what details one believes against another. Concentrating only on the parables and teachings of Jesus, and the example that he led with his life, no ‘interpretation’ is necessary, and distortion cannot get a foothold.

I would not presume to declare what Jesus would say or what Jesus would believe, but I do very much suspect that he would agree that the finer details not really matter, not when you boil it down to the elemental truth in the teachings: that all that matters is to love all, to treat thy neighbour as you would have your neighbour treat you – this, and far more besides that reminds us how to live our lives when we remember that the spirit of God is within us.

All the best,

[kreagle]

Star Mariner,

Wonderfully put and thought provoking, my dear friend and brother. We've all got a long way to go in order to achieve the ultimate goal that Jesus would like for us to achieve. I'm very grateful for His extension of Mercy and Grace to us all. Once again, thanks for your valuable input, my friend!


Your friend, brother, and servant,......kreagle

[kreagle]

What's 'really behind the curtain?'





Perhaps one of the most quoted phrases, (especially used in the political arena), comes from the movie classic,.....The Wizard of Oz,....and that phrase simply states,...."pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

It's not particularly hard to figure out, (even in the young mind's that are watching), why Dorothy, Lion, Tin Man, and the Scarecrow are instructed to 'pay no attention' to this man behind the curtain. What's perceived to be the 'Wizard of Oz' turns out to be, not only an 'ordinary man',....but in reality a 'deceiver',....a 'humbug',....with no special powers, whatsoever. He keeps his 'subjects' spell-bound with his many deceptive 'bells, whistles, and controls' which he deploys behind the cloak of the curtain. Once again, man's best friend, (a 'dog' named Toto),....is instrumental in 'revealing the truth' by pulling the curtain open and revealing the deception.


Over the course of time, I have been amazed at the multitude of 'movie moments, etc.',.....where concepts are 'thrown out there' for us to muse over that have 'subtle subliminal messages' interwoven within them. More often than not, these 'underlying messages' are God-orientated, whether we fully realize it, or not. Furthermore, these 'God-orientated' messages from our 'Hollywood friends', (term loosely used), generally are designed to 'bring out the negatives' in relationship to God,.....certainly not to highlight any positives. Such is the case, in my opinion, regarding this 'Hollywood classical quote',...."pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"


From a Biblical standpoint, I ask you to simply consider the following,.......


In the days of the Old Testament, the 'blueprint of God' called for a Tabernacle, (portable to begin with,....and then stationary later), where God, Himself, would dwell among His people, Israel. And it was in this Tabernacle that God had a 'specific place' where He would dwell, and that was in the Ark of the Covenant, above the Mercy Seat,.....which was 'specifically placed behind the curtain', (or vail), separating the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies! It was there that God chose to operate, through Moses and Aaron, the High Priest.

(note: I've supplied 'four different versions' on Exodus 26:31 for your convenience.....)

New International Version (©1984)
"Make a curtain of blue, purple and scarlet yarn and finely twisted linen, with cherubim worked into it by a skilled craftsman.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"For the inside of the Tabernacle, make a special curtain of finely woven linen. Decorate it with blue, purple, and scarlet thread and with skillfully embroidered cherubim.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“And you shall make a veil of blue and purple and scarlet yarns and fine twined linen. It shall be made with cherubim skillfully worked into it.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And thou shalt make a vail of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be made:


In the days of the New Testament, once again, the 'blueprint of God' called for another Tabernacle, where God, Himself, would again dwell among His people,.... as He trained disciples and carried out His ultimate plan at Calvary. And as the following 'four passages' clearly point out, He was, once again, behind another curtain,...this time, one made of 'flesh!'


(note: these 'four versions' highlight the passage from Hebrews 10:20 for your convenience,.....)


New International Version (©1984)
by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,

New Living Translation (©2007)
By his death, Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place.

English Standard Version (©2001)
by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;



In both of my examples of,....the Old Testament,....and.....the New Testament, above, we clearly see God dwelling and operating in His full capacity,....behind the curtain! A 'curtain made by mankind' in the Old Testament,......and a 'curtain made out of mankind' in the New Testament!

Very many, today, do not 'see', (understand), this,....and they have also fallen into a 'vicious trap!' Whether it is the 'voice of Hollywood', or not, the same prevalent statement is being echoed throughout the world, in an even more deadlier version,....."pay no attention to that God behind the curtain!"

Not only is this 'same quote' being broad-casted world-wide, but 'it's message' is more deadlier than ever.

'The message' being,.......your 'God behind the curtain'

......doesn't have the power/abilities you claim that He does......

......He keeps you, (His 'subjects',...or sheeple), spellbound with His endless religious 'bells, whistles, and mind-control'.....

......He's nothing more than a 'deceiver!'

......He's nothing more than a 'bad God',.....a 'humbug!'


And the saddest thing behind 'all of this',....is that many, today, are 'listening and agreeing with this message.'

So consequently,......they 'pay absolutely no attention to the God behind the curtain!'


What's 'really behind the curtain?'


Where in the world is 'Toto' when you really need him?


Your brother, friend, and servant,......kreagle

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Very interesting interpretation there kreagle. To be honest I've noted a number of Hollywood allegories where the character's goal in the story is to find that curtain, pull it back to expose who's hiding behind it. The Michael Douglas movie 'The Game', is a good example of that, also the the 'X'-Files, and the awesome series 'Lost'. All are about penetrating the hidden veil, not ignoring it, but plumbing the mysterious depths of deception, misdirection, and beholding what is truly there controlling their lives...

Perhaps there is another type of curtain, perhaps one more metaphorically germane than the tabernacle curtain, and that is the hidden powers that be who control this world - the controlling elite, the secret societies, the mega-corporations... They are truly the deceivers, the humbugs, and they do not want anyone paying attention to that - it is they who want to keep on hiding (and steering us away from this curtain protecting them).

For me, if there is any illusion at all it is that there is no curtain that separates us from God, the Great Spirit, Allah, the Source, whatever you wish to call him/her/it. So the message we should all take here is not 'pay no attention to what is behind the curtain', rather 'pay no attention to curtain itself'! It isn't really there.

[kreagle]

Star Mariner,

For me, if there is any illusion at all it is that there is no curtain that separates us from God, the Great Spirit, Allah, the Source, whatever you wish to call him/her/it. So the message we should all take here is not 'pay no attention to what is behind the curtain', rather 'pay no attention to curtain itself'! It isn't really there.

In an effort to provoke further thought on this, I deliberately did not bring out what you are actually alluding to, here. Indeed, Star Mariner,...you are totally correct, my friend! With the conclusion of Jesus' crucifixion at Calvary, we see that the 'elimination of this curtain' was forefront on our Master's mind!


Mark 15:37-39 (KJV)

37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.


Miraculously, by the Hand of God, we see that the 'curtain was eliminated, or moved out of the way' the very moment of Jesus' death on the Cross. No longer would it be necessary for mankind to have to go through a high priest in order to access God,.....he could now do it himself! Calvary, indeed, accomplished so much more than we can every imagine, through the intricate planning of our thoughtful God!

Now, if we can only get mankind to 'pay attention!'


God bless all!,.....your brother, friend, and servant,..........kreagle

[kreagle]

Star Mariner,

As I read your post, once again, you actually bring up another great point for consideration.

Perhaps there is another type of curtain, perhaps one more metaphorically germane than the tabernacle curtain, and that is the hidden powers that be who control this world - the controlling elite, the secret societies, the mega-corporations... They are truly the deceivers, the humbugs, and they do not want anyone paying attention to that - it is they who want to keep on hiding (and steering us away from this curtain protecting them).

I completely concur with your statement here, brother! Of course, this ruse they have employed was always with the intentions of 'setting themselves up on the Throne' of our lives. Others have attempted this in the past, ( see 'Lucifer',...Isaiah 14:11-15), and they will ultimately wind up in the 'same place' as Lucifer has, also.

In the 'Wizard of Oz' example, above, we find that a ( d o g ) pulls this curtain back for revelation. Some may think that this is 'just a play on words', but I don't think it is strange at all that, in reality, it will take ( G O D) to pull back this 'curtain' that I alluded to, earlier. He specifically did 'just that' at Calvary, when 'the vail of the temple was rent in twain from top to bottom'. He is still, to this very day, attempting to do the 'very same thing' in the hearts of those who will truly observe. Closer observation of the Scriptures reveal a saturation of 'this type of evidence'.

With the disciple, Philip,......Jesus was attempting to 'pull back the curtain', ( his flesh), and expose His True Self to them.

John 14:9 (KJV)

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?


With the disciple, Thomas,......it appears that after he 'originally doubted',....a subsequent 'hands on experience' completely 'pulled the curtain away', in Thomas' mind and heart!


John 20:24-29 (KJV)

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


Yes, my dear friend Star Mariner, the 'curtain has come down' for all to see,....but unfortunately not all have seen, as of yet. It takes time,...sometimes 'hard times',.....before many will see what is 'really going on'. But make no mistake, the time will fully come when 'all will see' that our ( G O D ), has indeed, pulled back the curtain. Mankind will then clearly see the 'humbugs' who have attempted to rule over us in their desperate attempt to scale the 'Throne' of our lives,.....and THEN for all to fully recognize who was on the 'Throne all alone to begin with!'


Your brother, friend, and servant,........kreagle

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Yes I do absolutely resonate with this interpretation my friend.. In regards to the 'humbugs', I do think that at least one corner of this curtain has indeed already begun to flap a little, and what lies beyond is beginning to emerge. But I differ slightly in that it will not be 'God' who will play any direct part in pulling that curtain aside for Mankind, rather free human will - whether a person wishes to take a peek or not, and in taking a peek whether to heed what was shown, or not.

The 'truth will set you free'... But only when an individual is ready to be set free. Unfortunately there are so many still addicted to darkness, or at least the safe, comfortable ignorance of their vacuous lives. But 'the light' of truth, of love, of God, is infinite and it is changeless. It's there, always, just waiting for each of us to turn towards it, and let the truth flood in.

All the best mate,

[kreagle]

Posted by Star Mariner (here)
Yes I do absolutely resonate with this interpretation my friend.. In regards to the 'humbugs', I do think that at least one corner of this curtain has indeed already begun to flap a little, and what lies beyond is beginning to emerge. But I differ slightly in that it will not be 'God' who will play any direct part in pulling that curtain aside for Mankind, rather free human will - whether a person wishes to take a peek or not, and in taking a peek whether to heed what was shown, or not.

The 'truth will set you free'... But only when an individual is ready to be set free. Unfortunately there are so many still addicted to darkness, or at least the safe, comfortable ignorance of their vacuous lives. But 'the light' of truth, of love, of God, is infinite and it is changeless. It's there, always, just waiting for each of us to turn towards it, and let the truth flood in.

All the best mate,

Hey Star Mariner,


Just wanted you to know that I really, really appreciate your approach and demeanor with your responses, here. You have been 'true to form' in what you originally stated, and I fully understand and respect your stance in regards to the 'issue on God'. If I come off as being a little on the 'over zealous side' sometimes, I ask you to please forgive me. No one can really fully understand, or appreciate, what I am really attempting to relay unless they have 'walked in my shoes', my dear friend.

Our 'growing dialogue' is very productive, in my opinion, and I'm looking forward to much more enriching moments for you, I, and the rest of our dear Avalon friends.


As always,.......your friend, brother, and servant,..........kreagle

[kreagle]

Dawning of a New Day....Revelation for Mankind





Through the wisdom of God's Word, we have been advised to 'properly equip ourselves' against the onslaught that we would, and have, encountered from the 'rulers of the darkness of this world'........


Ephesians 6:11-13 (KJV)

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.


It certainly should not take a genius to figure out that 'darkness', and the forces thereof, have ruled over mankind for as long as history has been recorded.

But,.....that's all about to change! A 'new day is dawning',....a 'day of revelation' is beginning to come up on the horizon for you and I!

It's in this 'light of revelation' that we are now beginning to see the 'true wickedness of man' and what many 'select groups' have done in their secret chambers over the course of our lives, and the lives of our forefathers, as well. Yes, this particular knowledge has been realized by a 'select few' for some time,.....but as this 'Divine light of revelation' becomes brighter and brighter we are now finding that it is becoming obvious to 'all' men, likewise.

It should be, equally, pointed out that this 'Divine light of revelation' is not going to be concentrated in just 'one area only!' As with from the 'Source in which it came', it likewise, will be 'no respecter'. This 'light', will indeed, seek out all of the 'hidden crevices of our lives' as it 'shines in all directions'.


John 1:5 (KJV)

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not


It will be an 'eye opening event',.....if,......we will only 'open our eyes!'


Your brother, friend, and servant,........kreagle

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by kreagle (here)
I ask you to please forgive me. No one can really fully understand, or appreciate, what I am really attempting to relay unless they have 'walked in my shoes', my dear friend.

I thank you for having me here kreagle! But there is nothing to forgive! I see only enthusiasm, and that's to be celebrated – for you have the love and light of God in your heart, and that breeds such a strong desire to spread it around to your fellow beings. It is much appreciated!

Zealousness, however, is a different thing entirely, and that is not you! Zealousness is bred by negativity, by those who prefer to spread words of fear, of warning, and thou shalt not!; and that matters/forces which they can’t explain must be ‘the Devil’s work’, rather than being simply the greater mystery of God. But that is not the way, and you and I know it well

The 'Divine Light of Revelation' of which you speak has never been absent, but now it shines with ever greater intensity. I do agree that a time of great change is upon us all. The time is truly now to stand up and walk with the Light. A new realm beckons where The darkness will be stripped away...

Yet those who have fed off the dark and grown fat from it, have a chance yet to withstand in the evil day, and stand. But time grows short. Some will, I feel, and some will not. Those who spurn the opportunity for redemption will recede like a shadow against the approaching noonday sun, and be left behind. For the rest of us the wonders of a brand new world await...

[Krullenjongen]

Posted by Star Mariner (here)
My view of Christianity – all religion (and I have no intention whatsoever in criticizing or attacking, this is just statement of my personal belief...) is that religious doctrine whether it was written onto the page by God or not, is and always has been controlled by Man nonetheless. Man is a distorting creature, one shaped, predisposed to distortion – ego – which invariably directs his actions.

Man is far from a pure Being. If he were, Jesus would not have needed to walk here. Man contaminates all that he touches. Thus, what we have with the Bible, particularly now after 2,000 long years, is in my opinion a diluted account – or at the very least an account which contains enough semantic variation to manoeuvre one’s thought into a distorted interpretation.

That is merely how I view the nature of orthodoxy/canon. It must be noted that letters, words language is a highly delicate tool, a simple word here or there changing the entire context. There are multiple versions of the Biblical text, laid down by multiple individuals, decreed and re-ordered by multiple Ecumenical Councils – politicized, culturalized… diluted.

At the end of the day, my friends, all the incontinuities between the Old Testament God and the New is, personally speaking, of no concern to my thought process. Who begat who isn’t of interest. Whether the formation on Mount Ararat is really Noah’s Ark or petrified wood is irrelevant. Minutia does not really matter to me.

Details Do Not Matter.

That is an interesting point you make there.
I think that in some cases details can be important and especially when you dig into certain subjects but in general i agree with you.
Now let's take christianity for a subject and apply your train of thought.
If i take ten or even fifty different bibles from the year 300 AD to our time and say what the details are not that important. I will look at the general story and message in these bibles you will find that the basic story and message is the same.
Would that make you more inclined to take that message serious?

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

I think I understand what you’re saying, and if so you have underlined this concept: that a collection of Bibles at variance in their composition/translation will nonetheless contain the same general messages, with an emphasis on the revelation that the finer details therein which divide them (generated by politics or the ego-distortion of Man) are not what’s important.

Yet so many miss the point, and cling on to these themes, establishing cults and subdivisions of faith which serves only to divide people yet further, resulting in bias, bigotry, even war. It’s been happening for centuries.

The only important message to understand, whether you’re reading the Bible, the Koran, the Vedas, the Vinaya Piṭak, or any religious, philosophical or spiritual text, is when you boil away all the outer material, the knowledge, the wisdom, all the specifics, eminently important though all that may be, what you are left with is hope, humility, compassion, and pure, pure love.

[kreagle]

Star Mariner,

Once again, you've outdone yourself with your heartfelt words of kindness. You really do have a 'keenness' about you, brother,....as illustrated with your following quote........

The 'Divine Light of Revelation' of which you speak has never been absent, but now it shines with ever greater intensity. I do agree that a time of great change is upon us all. The time is truly now to stand up and walk with the Light. A new realm beckons where The darkness will be stripped away...

Yet those who have fed off the dark and grown fat from it, have a chance yet to withstand in the evil day, and stand. But time grows short. Some will, I feel, and some will not. Those who spurn the opportunity for redemption will recede like a shadow against the approaching noonday sun, and be left behind. For the rest of us the wonders of a brand new world await...

Brother, those 'poetic words',......"have a chance",.....literally made the 'Spirit of God within me', to leap for joy,.....for as long as 'repentance is available to us',.....we 'all' still,......have a chance!!!

What a message of love,....mercy,.....and grace,.....our Lord extends to us 'all!' In the face of our 'many dark deeds',.....He still finds a way to love us,.......and give us a chance!


Star Mariner, your 'final comment', quite frankly, borders on 'genius',........

Those who spurn the opportunity for redemption will recede like a shadow against the approaching noonday sun, and be left behind. For the rest of us the wonders of a brand new world await...

Isn't it amazing how 'one man's poetic words of future promise',.....when applied in reverse,....become 'another man's condemnation of exclusion?' Especially, when we 'all' have access to the 'same doorway?'



Revelation 3:19-21(KJV)

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


Be sure, my dear brother, to 'listen to yourself!'




Your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

[kreagle]

Posted by Krullenjongen (here)

Posted by Star Mariner (here)
My view of Christianity – all religion (and I have no intention whatsoever in criticizing or attacking, this is just statement of my personal belief...) is that religious doctrine whether it was written onto the page by God or not, is and always has been controlled by Man nonetheless. Man is a distorting creature, one shaped, predisposed to distortion – ego – which invariably directs his actions.

Man is far from a pure Being. If he were, Jesus would not have needed to walk here. Man contaminates all that he touches. Thus, what we have with the Bible, particularly now after 2,000 long years, is in my opinion a diluted account – or at the very least an account which contains enough semantic variation to manoeuvre one’s thought into a distorted interpretation.

That is merely how I view the nature of orthodoxy/canon. It must be noted that letters, words language is a highly delicate tool, a simple word here or there changing the entire context. There are multiple versions of the Biblical text, laid down by multiple individuals, decreed and re-ordered by multiple Ecumenical Councils – politicized, culturalized… diluted.

At the end of the day, my friends, all the incontinuities between the Old Testament God and the New is, personally speaking, of no concern to my thought process. Who begat who isn’t of interest. Whether the formation on Mount Ararat is really Noah’s Ark or petrified wood is irrelevant. Minutia does not really matter to me.

Details Do Not Matter.

That is an interesting point you make there.
I think that in some cases details can be important and especially when you dig into certain subjects but in general i agree with you.
Now let's take christianity for a subject and apply your train of thought.
If i take ten or even fifty different bibles from the year 300 AD to our time and say what the details are not that important. I will look at the general story and message in these bibles you will find that the basic story and message is the same.
Would that make you more inclined to take that message serious?

Star Mariner and Krullenjongen,

Greetings, my brothers, and God richly bless you both!


The 'dilemma' you speak of, Star Mariner, is 'no dilemma at all' if you look at this from a 'proper perspective' and from the angle that God intended for 'all of mankind' to view it from, originally. Krullenjongen is certainly correct, and on track, with his statement, (highlighted in blue). Additionally I will point out the the 'entire problem' begins when mankind 'strays from the overall Biblical concept' of,.........'one Lord, one faith, one baptism'.

Precisely, the Bible records it 'this way',.......


Ephesians 4:4-6 (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Because of this, it's important to know that the 'basic fundamental truth' of 'One Lord' is what our God built a nation, (Israel), with and then consequently chiseled in stone, (the Ten Commandments), that 'same fundamental truth' of 'one Lord God, and one only!' ( Deuteronomy 6:3-15 and Exodus 20:1-18 )


Israel realized, first-hand,.... the value and benefits that would be 'heaped upon them' whenever they held 'this concept and realization of one God' close to their heart and served Him, and Him, only. They also learned, the hard way, what would happen to them whenever they 'strayed from this heavenly mandate'.


The 'New Testament Church',...( just like the 'nation' of Israel),..realized the 'same identical thing' when It was 'born into existence' on the Day of Pentecost and recorded in the Book of Acts, chapters one and two. The 'church', which we can all belong to today, by virtue of It's 'born again experience', has become 'an holy nation' to God, and not just a 'nation' like Israel is.


1 Peter 2:9-10 (KJV)

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.



As such,....we the 'church', will equally be required to recognize, and serve, one Lord God, and Him, only! Blessings still flow abundantly for those who embrace and practise the 'belief and servitude' to one God, and Him only,......and 'others', I'm afraid, still have to 'learn the hard way'.



(conclusion)

Something that was always intended to be 'easy' has become very distorted and complex in the minds, hearts, and souls of many, entirely too many, individuals. Consequently they are faced with 'learning the hard way!' When one sits back and ponders the 'vast amount of doctrines, concepts, Biblical versions, etc.', it can leave a person in complete bewilderment, if your not careful and wise to what's going on. Quite simply,...God, at no time,...has ever become divided into 'more than one Deity! He has never become a 'plurality of Persons', as the 'doctrine of the trinity' will attempt to teach you. He was 'One to Israel',.....ALWAYS!,......and He is 'still One to the Church', today!


Malachi 3:6 (KJV)

6 For I am the Lord, I change not;........


Yes, indeed, He 'still hasn't changed!',......


He is 'still',........'one Lord',......with 'one faith, and one baptism'......


And that's 'exactly what His Apostles taught to the 'infant church',...beginning in Acts chapter two, verse thirty-seven by the Apostle Peter. Each subsequent church would be, equally, taught 'this same message' by these 'same Apostles', who 'never deviated in this message' of......one Lord,....one faith,....one baptism!

I have 'expounded on this before' on a thread, by Beren, titled......What does it mean-BE Christian, and I will supply the link for your viewing,( please read posts #83 and #84 which are back-to-back),.......

Link: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post546613


Your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

[Rocky_Shorz]

I was down by the beach today and heard of a Blue whale sighting from the shore...

page 777 is Jonah and the whale...

I hopped in my car and drove inland...

[kreagle]

Posted by Rocky_Shorz (here)
I was down by the beach today and heard of a Blue whale sighting from the shore...

page 777 is Jonah and the whale...

I hopped in my car and drove inland...

Ha!, Ha!, Ha!, Ha!,......hey, you weren't' close to Nineveh, were you?


Good to see you, brother!,.............kreagle

[Krullenjongen]

Posted by Star Mariner (here)
The only important message to understand, whether you’re reading the Bible, the Koran, the Vedas, the Vinaya Piṭak, or any religious, philosophical or spiritual text, is when you boil away all the outer material, the knowledge, the wisdom, all the specifics, eminently important though all that may be, what you are left with is hope, humility, compassion, and pure, pure love.

I agree with you that you can find wisdom, insight and good messages in other text ( i read a few of them myself) We christians call the attributes like you name them the "fruit of the Holy Spirit"
The Fruit of the Holy Spirit is a biblical term that sums up the nine visible attributes of a true Christian life of which you named a few.

Gal 5:22-23 (KJV)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

That is all great and a very worthy goal to strive for but i believe to fully express these attributes i need Gods help and a change of heart.

I wanted to ask you a question Star Mariner.
You say you have read different sacret texts. Then you must have seen that the christian faith is different in one way than all the other faiths. That is that we believe that every human being is a sinner and needs to repent and be forgiven before he can enter heaven. Jesus says that no man can come to the Father than by him. Most if not all other faiths say that you can better yourself and by that be worthy to enter heaven.
In other words they follow a path of self "enlightenment" and rely on self growth end good deeds to get to heaven. a christian strives for growth and the fruit of the spirit but relies on faith is Jesus Christ to get to heaven, This is very different.
What do you think about these differences?

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by Krullenjongen (here)
I wanted to ask you a question Star Mariner.
You say you have read different sacret texts. Then you must have seen that the christian faith is different in one way than all the other faiths. That is that we believe that every human being is a sinner and needs to repent and be forgiven before he can enter heaven. Jesus says that no man can come to the Father than by him. Most if not all other faiths say that you can better yourself and by that be worthy to enter heaven.
In other words they follow a path of self "enlightenment" and rely on self growth end good deeds to get to heaven. a christian strives for growth and the fruit of the spirit but relies on faith is Jesus Christ to get to heaven, This is very different.
What do you think about these differences?

Thank you for the question Krullenjongen, and it's a good one. In fact a very good one. I could go into great detail in describing my own personal beliefs, relating to any question you have in accordance with my level of understanding at this time, but I have asserted that I would not stray from the mission brief of this thread with 'my own stuff', so I'll try not to go too overboard.

Firstly, and at the risk of sounding pretentious in quoting myself, I would underline my answer by again stating: 'in accordance with my level of understanding at this time'. If God is infinite, and God is Wisdom and Knowledge and Love etc, then Wisdom, Knowledge and Love is infinite also. And the pursuit of them is infinite. They do not, in my belief, end with the Holy Bible, or any text or philosophy on Earth. They merely begin here. Thus whatever I think and whatever I believe is only a reflection of an ever-changing, ever-evolving exposition in how I perceive truth, spirituality, and the Universe.

I may see, experience, or just contemplate something today or tomorrow that would reshape that picture, and I would push forward with a new and clearer understanding. You or kreagle or anyone else could tell me something that has the same effect. Learning is the beginning of Knowledge. Knowledge is the beginning of Wisdom. The Illumination of truth, forever unravelling, never ends...

Anyway, your question, based on what I comprehend today

In other words they follow a path of self "enlightenment" and rely on self growth end good deeds to get to heaven. a christian strives for growth and the fruit of the spirit but relies on faith is Jesus Christ to get to heaven, This is very different.

You say the methods are very different, but to be honest I don't recognise any differences fundamental to the issue. I'll explain why in a moment, but I shall intercede slightly on the mission brief by stating that I believe ‘Heaven’, the spiritual realms from which we all come, are open and available to all on departure from this life. We shall rise up into those higher realms, as certainly as a fish shall rise to the surface of the water when it too passes on. However, the ‘vibrational’ level you have attained in life determines the level/layer of Heaven to which you will go. The vibrations of which I speak you need not pay attention to. It’s not a Christian idea I know, think of it only as a kind of graduating level of awareness, humility, purity, etc. The Talmud spoke originally of ‘seven heavens’, so consider it the same kind of idea. ‘Hell’? That’s another post.

That is that we believe that every human being is a sinner and needs to repent and be forgiven before he can enter heaven.

I think that Jesus arrived in such chaotic, salacious, and evil times for a special reason. So many lived a life that was… well, not of the virtuous way! and not a way that was likely going to get them far once they passed over. Vast numbers needed saving in those oppressive, godless days (worse than today believe it or not). But of course those messages resonate through time, to today, and his lessons remain the same.

We are all ‘sinners’, if you wish to use that word, for ‘sin’ need not just be an ‘evil’, or a ‘depravity’, quite often for most of us it is just a form of ‘self-indulgence’ at the expense of another. The most important theme in Christ’s teachings, for me, is that human-beings are all brothers, sisters; that to transgress against a brother or a sister, to harm, extort, or ill-treat another is to harm, extort, or ill-treat oneself.

It is such an important message… To be ‘saved’, people must first and foremost learn to regard other people as they would have themselves regarded in others’ eyes: that is to say an intelligent, sovereign, yet flawed being. We are at the end of the day all flames of the same fire, all leaves of the same tree (of life), all sons and daughters of the same God-Creator.

Secondly, and I believe this very strongly. That to ‘cleanse’ ourselves of a sin, we must not look outside for absolution, to a practitioner of the faith to do it for us, or even to God… but to the inside. We may seek the forgiveness of God, and he will give it, for he is love, but should we not most of all learn to forgive ourselves? For doing so must be contingent on how we can then forgive others […as we forgive those who trespass against us…]

In not forgiving, we withhold love. And Alex Collier said: the love we withhold is the pain that we carry. Whatever you think of the man is irrelevant. What wonderful words. Pure truth, my friends. If we withhold love, how we can expect to receive it? If we do not receive it, how can we expect to be saved?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin.

**

May I say also that Buddhists practice a form of forgiveness for transgressions (and negative karma) in the form of reciting Mantras (for the record I am not a Buddhist, but just wanted to add that, for the difference you see between faiths are not quite so black and white.).

The path to enlightenment which is, say, the Buddhist way, or salvation in the Christian faith, are not all that different. Buddhists seek Nirvana, complete oneness in surpassing the inner distortions of Aversion, Desire, and Delusion. A path to the light then is through self-purification. And that is the way of Jesus Christ, is it not? though rendered by means of different language and methodology.

Jesus says that no man can come to the Father than by him

By his way, certainly, but not necessarily through his name. Because his name is not known by all humanity, before his birth or after it. Christ was the way-shower. Follow that way, aware of his name, or not (a rose by any other name would smell as sweet), and the way to God is shown.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by kreagle (here)
The 'dilemma' you speak of, Star Mariner, is 'no dilemma at all' if you look at this from a 'proper perspective' and from the angle that God intended for 'all of mankind' to view it from, originally.

Thank you so very much for your kind words kreagle. And you're absolutely correct here, I agree completely. Krull is spot on also when he says: I will look at the general story and message in these bibles you will find that the basic story and message is the same.

The messages of the highest importance are the same, and the dilemma of which I spoke begins only when Man attempts to deviate from what is important (the teachings of Christ) and starts to focus on largely irrelevant backdrop issues.

Posted by kreagle (here)
Something that was always intended to be 'easy' has become very distorted and complex in the minds, hearts, and souls of many, entirely too many, individuals. Consequently they are faced with 'learning the hard way!' When one sits back and ponders the 'vast amount of doctrines, concepts, Biblical versions, etc.', it can leave a person in complete bewilderment, if your not careful and wise to what's going on.

There is great wisdom, as well as fascinating insights to history, found throughout the Bible. And a great deal of doctrine, put forth by a great number of different characters and individuals. And this is where the confusion of which you spoke arises. And it is why the most important information, for me, has always been found with the life of Jesus, his life, his example, as outlined in the New Testament.

Thank-you for linking to that other thread by the way. I wished to quote this part of what you said below:

Posted by kreagle (here)
Not only do we 'understand and acknowledge' what Jesus did for us,.... 'exactly',....with His death, burial, and resurrection,.....but now we also,....'understand and acknowledge' how,...we,too,....can 'follow in His same footsteps',....be 'Christ-like',...be a 'Christian',......and 'experience our own personal,....death, burial, and resurrection'!,.......NOT......in a 'physical way' like He did,.......but in a 'spiritual way'!!

I’m in total agreement with this interpretation. I think that is exactly what is meant!

I’m not sure if you meant this yourself, but here is a slightly different interpretation, a further little nugget to chew on, if you will.

And it is that all of us, throughout our lives undergo a kind of repeated spiritual death, burial, and resurrection, in that as we strive forward in our understanding, in our execution of being the best possible human-being we can be, we put aside those parts of ourselves that we no longer want, shed them like an old skin, and we resurrect inside of ourselves, like a pupa taking shape in a cocoon. I see that process continuing throughout our lives, all the way to our actual, physical deaths, where we break free of the cocoon at last, and fly free.

In love and light, my friends..