Can a soul be captured?

[Cognitive Dissident]

Posted by bearcow (here)
The classical definition of a soul is synonymous with the astral being/body

In modern days the terms soul and spirit are used interchangeably by the uneducated.

This brings us to the question of a soul or true being. This is not a thing, it has no dimensions, it cannot even be said to 'exist' as we normally think of things...so it cannot be effected by anything. It is pure awareness.

a soul is not a true being or pure awareness, a spirit is

To use an analogy, the idea that the human mind is also the same thing as the human brain is employing the same type of faulty logic

Just as the mind does not have full control of the brain, the same goes for the spirit's control over the soul.

a human soul like a human brain, can be captured, contolled and even completely annihilated under certain circumstances

to my knowledge, a spirit cannot

Everyone in open society has a soul, as well as a spirit, however "your spirit" has very little to do with what people consider themselves to be as a individual.

Bearcow, I think you are absolutely right. You may be interesting to hear that what you are saying is also the central thesis of a very interesting book called The Lost Secret of Death by Peter Novak. Check it out online, although I recommend buying it (you can get it through Amazon quite easily). Not an easy read, but quite compelling.

[Nickolai]

Posted by Christine (here)
Tony,
I guess you have never met up with a spiritual being that was captured and held prisoner for millenniums of time. It is a tortured existence being held in a static state unable to move/ express but with consciousness intact.

Christine, probably out of topic but since I read the abov-mentioned line I got puzzled.
Excuse me for my ignorance but have you ever met a spiritual being that was captured? If so then please tell your story, that would be interesting to know from someone who experienced that. I made that conclusion for you speak about it as a matter-of-factly.
I am intrigued. How this being was captured? How this being calculated the millenniums, did it know time? (cos for me time is more and more becomes the "long-talked about" NOW and as far as I know many do experience the change in the perception of time). Did it suffer or was held in anabiosis? Have you met in a dream or in real life? Wow!

Thank you,

Nickolai

[Kindred]

Posted by Jake (here)
our souls emit/create unthinkable amounts of energy. That would be the primary reason for capturing/enslaving an essence/experience.... to vampire the energy.

Ok... but, how do you differentiate between the soul energy, and that which it emits.. which is 'soul energy' ... HOW do you prevent the soul from escaping??? I think you have to put some more energy into logical thought. As for LOOSH...

If you live in the emotion of Love, then this is a NON ISSUE. And, That emotion is all there Truly is... particularly among pure souls (dis-incarnate beings).

This is what I'm talking about (from post #36):

..."The answer was that no soul was inherently evil. The terrible things that happened to people might make them do evil things, but their souls were not evil. What all people seek, what sustains them, is love, the light told me. What distorts people is a lack of love.

The revelations coming from the light seemed to go on and on, then I asked the light, "Does this mean that humankind will be saved?"

Then, like a trumpet blast with a shower of spiraling lights, the Great Light spoke, saying, "Remember this and never forget; you save, redeem and heal yourself. You always have. You always will. You were created with the power to do so from before the beginning of the world."

In Unity, Peace and Love

[bram]

Dear all,

I would just like to point out that EVERYTHING which emanates from the human mind, including all science and pseudo science, is illusion.

This mind only exists when we are thinking. When we cease to think, it ceases to exists. When we cease to think completely, it will cease to exist completely, and the entire world which the mind conjures up, will collapse.

Many people believe in the existence of an eternal human soul these days. In the same way we invented god to make us feel safe and give us an excuse for our imperfection, we also invented the soul to reassure ourselves that despite our imperfection we are nontheless eternal. As it doesn't exist, it is difficult to see how it can be captured.

In fact we can only become eternal by striving for and attaining perfection. this was the message of the buddha.

[bram]

Posted by Whiskey_Mystic (here)

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)

If God is One without a second then it stands to reason, that you in your True nature as One without a second-- undivided can not be imprisoned/altered/affected.

But we ARE divided. Here in the space-time we are separated from God by O/our own choice and will in order to experience ourself. Or something. But in any case, I think it is evident that we are separate from God even as our true nature is that we ARE God. Otherwise, I would never feel pain, struggle for money, or have desires. Even if the only thing separating us from God is our own self-realization, we are still separate.

Hi Whiskey Mystic,

Yes, we are separated from our true nature (or God) by the illusory world we create with our minds. IMO, we won't get back to our true nature by continuing to go deeper and deeper into the illusion. We need to quiet our minds instead of stirring them up more and more..

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Abhaya (here)
One thing that dosnt resonate with me at all with this material is that in his talks and books he eludes to the fact that our eternal existence as a conscious soul is in fact in jeopardy.... For me it goes without question that our eternal existence is completely independent from and cannot be ultimately harmed in any way from any material aspect of this universe no matter how evasive, powerful, or subtle, it may be. Any one have any further info on what angle he might be pushing with this claim.

(Abhaya was responding to a discussion about something that George Green said in his recent interview, reported here.)

This is something that is frequently misunderstood, and is absolutely not true. Souls most certainly can, under certain circumstances, be implanted, imprisoned, and/or harmed.

None of this damage need be permanent (although that's usually the intention); it can be completely repaired. But the harm, before being healed, can sometimes be extremely heavy and can last for the entire duration of a universe, or longer.

I, and many others, have personally freed trapped beings that have experienced and endured this. I do know exactly what I'm talking about here. I'm happy to share some details, though how this all happens can be complex and sometimes a little hard to understand without quite a lot more context.

[gripreaper]

Posted by Maunagarjana (here)
True, but that being so does not negate the experience of the lower levels. To borrow a phrase from Ken Wilber, the higher levels transcend but do not negate the lower ones. The All includes all. To focus only on the absolute and dismiss the experience of the relative leads people to missing some important things about this experience we are having now in this form of life, imho.

All of the levels are real (as real illusions) and have consequences in their own way. But it's just that they are not the whole picture. The physical body itself is an illusion, being temporary and not independently existing, but does that mean we should be unconcerned with the physical body being mistreated and imprisoned?

Wow, someone else who has read Ken Wilbur. Come to think of it, I have not seen a thread here on Avalon discussing his voluminous work. I was a huge Wilbur fan back in the 90's and read many of his books. He's quite a good writer and did very extensive background study.

[Hervé]

While this so-called debate keeps going back and forth, the "controllers" keep adding captured souls to their livestocks... through their regularly scheduled wars and satanic sacrificial events; Sandy being the last on the list as it corresponded to "Halloween" which is the second in importance with respect to sacrificial rituals.

Here is an example of how these souls are used on this lovely planet:

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
With respect to these sacrificial rituals and what is achieved through them, here is a little known usage in order to control Earth's energy grid:


Then in December, in Dooney's chat, we were systematically boosting all the occult banking families. We were working up the Rothschilds, and a power base they have in Paris. I think on Nancy's intuitive prompting, we all soon realized the Rothschilds were using the Obelisks in Paris to transmit and collect energy. Then we started realizing the obelisks were over corrupted earth vortices, with trapped guardians. We spent some time addressing the grief energy over Diana's murder that was being collected and used against humanity. We were finding wells of souls under them also. A well of souls is a deep pit of trapped, grief shattered souls whose energy is being controlled and used like a generator by the sickos of the world. We had a rollicking time.


Vigeland Park in Oslo

From: http://www.ethericwarriors.com/ip/vi...ad=4153&t=1596

Right in everybody's face!

Here is another one :

Steve:

[...]

I have people with psoriasis. We go back in the past and they’ve been burnt at the stake. Skin’s dripping off their body. The last trauma was remembering their skin boiling, dripping off their body. Whatever trauma took place around death will still be online. Any trauma that took place around the death has never been cleared. It will just activate itself in this life. And once it does, it’s activated as if it happened yesterday, you’re back online again with the same trauma, until that trauma has been cleared.

Look, let’s go back. Let’s go back to the Inquisition. Why in the Inquisition did they torture you before they kill you? Because they’re going to kill you anyway? They did it to get you to submit. That gives them access to the soul in the future.

Miranda: THAT is SO key. I mean everything goes back to trauma. Now we understand, on a much deeper level, why trauma has been used so much for all of this stuff. It’s not just to be mean, it’s not just because they’re evil, it’s because they know that gives them access not only in this lifetime, but when you come around for another lifetime, you’re already theirs on a certain level. They know what the power of trauma.

Steve: Yes. And they’re called the born‐rights. They have the born‐rights to your vehicle.

[...]

Interview with Steve Richards:

Download MP3 Audio Dreamtime Healing: Ancient Aboriginal Modalities with Steve Richards-Part 1 (right click, "Save as")
Full Transcript -Dreamtime Healing-Hour 1-PDF (right click, "Save as")

Download MP3 Audio Dreamtime Healing: Ancient Aboriginal Modalities with Steve Richards-Part 2 (right click, "Save as")
Full Transcript -Dreamtime Healing-Hour 2-PDF (right click, "Save as")

These are not your accidental run-of-the-mill confused ghosts lost on their way... these are intended to be "eternal" ghosts and their energy is collected and broadcasted along earth's own power lines.

[johnf]

Been rereading this thread, and recovered something I have wondered about from time to time.
Religions get people to believe that the fate of their souls is the most important thing in existence. More important than their physical lives. Religions glorify and raise those people who have died for their religious beliefs as saints. Looking at this in another way, religions and groups like them try to get us to attach huge amounts of importance, and uninspected emotions to our "souls", which in my understanding is really just the accumulation of memories and ideas about ourselves, also known as ego. In a way they are asking us to discard what we actually are for self and then deify the general idea of self. This is not the only thing done by religions mind you ,but seems to be the main part of it that gets handed down from generation to generation.

The other part of this discussion is the acceptance of the whole spectrum of created reality, probably realities that are created
by spirit getting in the habit of repeating thoughts and layering them into things like the physical universe where bodies can develop, a spirit can focus on one , and work out all the distortions that they have accumulated, and get back to a point of acceptance that ego, self, identity, is not what we really are.

Still not fully satisfied with what I am trying to verbalize here, but at least I got the rough form of it out in the real world.

[johnf]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Abhaya (here)
One thing that dosnt resonate with me at all with this material is that in his talks and books he eludes to the fact that our eternal existence as a conscious soul is in fact in jeopardy.... For me it goes without question that our eternal existence is completely independent from and cannot be ultimately harmed in any way from any material aspect of this universe no matter how evasive, powerful, or subtle, it may be. Any one have any further info on what angle he might be pushing with this claim.

(Abhaya was responding to a discussion about something that George Green said in his recent interview, reported here.)

This is something that is frequently misunderstood, and is absolutely not true. Souls most certainly can, under certain circumstances, be implanted, imprisoned, and/or harmed.

None of this damage need be permanent (although that's usually the intention); it can be completely repaired. But the harm, before being healed, can sometimes be extremely heavy and can last for the entire duration of a universe, or longer.

I, and many others, have personally freed trapped beings that have experienced and endured this. I do know exactly what I'm talking about here. I'm happy to share some details, though how this all happens can be complex and sometimes a little hard to understand without quite a lot more context.

I myself have experienced things similar to what you describe in this post. I am very attempted to conclude that these experiences that you had were connected to the Ron's Org material, because that was the source of my own experiences around this subject however my certainty may not be as strong as yours. And I have also done a lot of work with the non-duality self inquiry stuff, after the other stuff, and I tend to have more faith in that.

I would love to hear a more in depth explanation of your views on this subject with all the content and complexity. As a matter of fact I have long wanted to see a real expansion of this subject laid out on this forum so that the details can be explored by more people on this forum.
I think it would be much appreciated, by all of us here if you were to start a new thread and really lay it all out.

John

[Wind]

I've had negative implants on my soul and they've been cleared now. I had major traumas in earlier lives and that attracted negative entities to my spirit. I find it hard to believed that souls could be captured or manipulated, but I guess that anything could be true...

Even if it is true, I'm not wasting my time and energy to worry about it. There are more important things to focus my energy on than fear. As I believe in angels, guardians and God I think that I have absolutely nothing to be afraid of. Only my body can be harmed, but not my soul. Soul is energy and energy is eternal.

There may be parts of souls that can perhaps leave a trace of energy, but it is not you. You are not your mind, nor your body. Of course you do have an aura, and seven etheric bodies, but soul is so much more. It is awareness behind thoughts, awareness that never ever can be taken away.

I know that we are really easily being manipulated here on Earth, but is just a game. Nothing more. The astral dimension where we go after death is a place where we study ourselves between the lives we live.

[jookyle]

Whether a soul can be captured or can not be captured is solely given to the circumstances of the soul and the soul relationship to circumstance. Someone just can't walk up and steal a soul but a soul can be captured by something out of the material conditions under which they died. A person never wants to leave his house, his connection to the house goes through more than just his conscious wich and reaches his soul. Now his soul is connected in that same strong way that his mind is. So when the soul leaves the body, it stays at the house. This is why you have ghosts "haunting" a house where the person to whom the ghost belonged lived their entire life. In the very soul of that man, he wants to stay i that house, so his soul does.

[Tony]

Good morning.

Q. Do we have a soul?
Q. Is this soul separate from me?
Q. Can it be captured?

These are age old questions - your answer to this will dictate what sort of world you live in. If you believe in this thing called a soul, and that it can be captured, then you are living in hell. Why, because fear has been introduced into your life.

Because of a belief in a soul, people have covered mirrors, not wanted their photo taken, spat on the ground, feared to talk of the devil, become very superstitious and religious. Not forgetting wearing lucky charms. If this helps people get through life, then that is their choice.

This is a beautiful world, and all the sentient beings on it (in Essence) are beautiful too. Yes, there some very selfish individuals. I am one of them, there is selfishness in all of us, until we finally let go of everything.

I can recognise consciousness, I can recognise ego, I can recognise Essence, but I cannot recognise a soul. That is because a soul does not exist! In fact neither does consciousness, ego or 'Essence'.

Essence just is, one cannot say it either exists or doesn't exist, as it's beyond all concepts! If Essence is synonymous with God, which is beyond limits, how can any-thing (which is limited) capture it?

This thread is needlessly creating fear, it came from the claim that black op can retrieve and transfer souls, and that there are people that can save your soul. Oh, I thought religions did that!

There are people reading this thread wondering what to believe and getting upset.
To you I say, trust in that which is aware of all that goes on in your mind and in the world.
That is your Essence, it is not complicated.

If we go back to the movie analogy, the film is only seen on the screen by virtue of the light. The film has no reality. The only problem is the projectionist, who still believes what he is projecting is real. Beliefs can have a profound effect on your mind.

I do not have a soul, so there is nothing to steal. It's like a thief entering an empty house!
Show me a tortured soul, and I'll show you a tortured mind.


So, as MC Hammer perfectly said, “Can't touch this!”


Tony

[markpierre]

Fraid you're right Tony. I don't know how you know you're right, but you're right, because you know it. Thanks for standing for it.
You probably don't know why either. That's the point, right? But you do too have a soul, but you call it nothing. I call it Soul, but who cares? Same thing.
Everyone associates the idea of their Soul with the same criteria that they assess everything by. By comparing it to themselves. It's kind of weird.

No one is going to understand that 'nothing' you refer too, because they want to be themselves. We have to save the 'selves'. That's the whole
yahoo about the genes and the DNA and all the s#itty things they did to us because we think we're this. So who is certain about this?
I know you're not. And and I know I'm not. It'd be nice if my DNA could send better instructions to my guts and joints, but why? For how long?
More duration in space/time? A Golden Age? Maybe living in caves.
You know why not. There's something more desirable than that. It's hard to find out why it's more desirable, and that's the problem.
Too much of not what they want still. You know. I struggle with it. You must struggle with it. But isn't that stillness more spontaneous these days?

The 'soul' is a direct aspect of God. It can't be taken away from it's own substance. It can't escape from itself, it IS what God is. Let alone be kidnapped.
Anyone that thinks it can, just think about it a little bit more.

Self identity most certainly can. It's dumb as a brick. You can make it do anything; just scare it. And it doesn't disappear at death, it just gets honest for a while.
It takes you wherever you want to go, and shows you whatever you want to see. It's all made up, or badly interpreted, including itself.
And it will believe almost anything, if it serves some private purpose.
That's a secret. What it won't believe is that it isn't real.

I don't know if what isn't real can goof around forever and get away with it. But I'd rather not participate a whole lot longer.

[angelahedgehog]

I think it's very possible for a soul to be captured but more often than not I think it happens with cooperation and where it doesn't that's where I believe a universal law has been broken.

It's complex to go into and I know everyone's got their own beliefs, I'm just chucking a summary of some of my own into the simmering pot, procrastinating when I should be finalising a synopsis.

At some level people agree to play the game with certain rules, at certain decision points we do things that lead to certain consequences that have certain outcomes. My opinion / point of view / labels for describing how I understand the world may be different to everyone else and therefore it would be pointless to try to describe it in any great detail but let's take a few simple examples of things that bind our (for want of a better word) soul:

1. Vows, Oaths
This is perhaps the first area where people start giving their power away. For example there is a well known, highly publicised religious group that expects new recruits to sign a billion year contract upon joining .... that's pretty binding and I wouldn't even want to hazard guessing the knots of that legal contract and how to begin getting out of it.

I wonder what other Vows and Oaths have been sworn in the secret, underbellies of present reality and what might be involved getting out of them.

There is also a lot in the archetypal dataset of our history and present that if you're willing to trade it for your soul - fame and fortune can happen for you - and much like a novelty tattoo that seemed like a good idea at the time - it may turn out in the fullness of time that it wasn't a very good idea.

2. Soul Debts
This is a slightly different matter ... there are instances that I know of where "magic" using / "energy" directing people from past lives, follow each other through time and each lifetime power play using whomever and whatever is around. I know it sounds kooky and I really don't want to discuss the specifics because I was involved in clearing up an instant and the entity involved attached to me for a while afterward until it eventually left.

I think if you kill someone, you incur a massive debt with that person that on some level must be honoured.

3. Spells
Ever heard of a binding spell? If the caster doesn't lift it, and the victim doesn't have it lifted - it can sit there like an implant for a very long time - lifetimes.

4. Trance / Hypnosis
This is a kind of difficult one to explain in high level terms ... but basically I am going to use the metaphor of the multiple personality disorder .... one person may agree to do something in one state but not in the others - does this bind them in the same way that a sound mind oath or vow would?
I'm not sure entirely certain how this works, I've self-analysed and read the theories - but I think this is probably one of the biggest areas of concern in terms of souls getting captured in present times.

But - and this is very important - the minute you feel fear about it you are more susceptible to being influenced.

There comes a point where once you've traversed the depths of your particular set-up and you've woken up to the fact that at it's heart everything is all in reality, an illusion (usually after some sort of catharsis or kundalini awakening) that you realise that your soul is your own, it always was, it is the observer, part of the greater Atman,, both everywhere and nowhere, both all and nothing ... and after that you just have to figure out what to do with the remaining days of your life.

Anyway that's how the hedgehog rolls
Peace
Ang

[greybeard]

Markpierre
I think you summed it up beautifully.
Congratulations --its simple yet the mind does not get it.
"You" do.

Chris

[Tony]

Posted by markpierre (here)
Fraid you're right Tony. I don't know how you know you're right, but you're right, because you know it. Thanks for standing for it.
You probably don't know why either. That's the point, right? But you do too have a soul, but you call it nothing. I call it Soul, but who cares? Same thing.
Everyone associates the idea of their Soul by the same criteria that they assess everything. By comparing it to themselves. It's kind of weird.

No one is going to understand that 'nothing' you refer too, because they want to be themselves. We have to save the 'selves'. That's the whole
yahoo about the genes and the DNA and all the s#itty things they did to us because we think we're this. So who is certain about this?
I know you're not. And and I know I'm not. It'd be nice if my DNA could send better instructions to my guts and joints, but why? For how long?
More duration in space/time? A Golden Age? Maybe living in caves.
You know why not. There's something more desirable than that. It's hard to find out why it's more desirable, and that's the problem.
Too much of not what they want still. You know. I struggle with it. You must struggle with it. But isn't that stillness more spontaneous these days?

The 'soul' is a direct aspect of God. It can't be taken away from it's own substance. It can't escape from itself, it IS what God is. Let alone be kidnapped.
Anyone that thinks it can, just think about it a little bit more.

Self identity most certainly can. It's dumb as a brick. You can make it do anything; just scare it. And it doesn't disappear at death, it just gets honest for a while.
It takes you wherever you want to go, and shows you whatever you want to see. It's all made up, or badly interpreted, including itself.
And it will believe almost anything, if it serves some private purpose.
That's a secret. What it won't believe is that it isn't real.

I don't know if what isn't real can goof around forever and get away with it. But I'd rather not participate a whole lot longer.

Spot on young submariner!

[Tony]

Posted by angelahedgehog (here)
I think it's very possible for a soul to be captured but more often than not I think it happens with cooperation and where it doesn't that's where I believe a universal law has been broken.

It's complex to go into and I know everyone's got their own beliefs, I'm just chucking a summary of some of my own into the simmering pot, procrastinating when I should be finalising a synopsis.

At some level people agree to play the game with certain rules, at certain decision points we do things that lead to certain consequences that have certain outcomes. My opinion / point of view / labels for describing how I understand the world may be different to everyone else and therefore it would be pointless to try to describe it in any great detail but let's take a few simple examples of things that bind our (for want of a better word) soul:

1. Vows, Oaths
This is perhaps the first area where people start giving their power away. For example there is a well known, highly publicised religious group that expects new recruits to sign a billion year contract upon joining .... that's pretty binding and I wouldn't even want to hazard guessing the knots of that legal contract and how to begin getting out of it.

I wonder what other Vows and Oaths have been sworn in the secret, underbellies of present reality and what might be involved getting out of them.

There is also a lot in the archetypal dataset of our history and present that if you're willing to trade it for your soul - fame and fortune can happen for you - and much like a novelty tattoo that seemed like a good idea at the time - it may turn out in the fullness of time that it wasn't a very good idea.

2. Soul Debts
This is a slightly different matter ... there are instances that I know of where "magic" using / "energy" directing people from past lives, follow each other through time and each lifetime power play using whomever and whatever is around. I know it sounds kooky and I really don't want to discuss the specifics because I was involved in clearing up an instant and the entity involved attached to me for a while afterward until it eventually left.

I think if you kill someone, you incur a massive debt with that person that on some level must be honoured.

3. Spells
Ever heard of a binding spell? If the caster doesn't lift it, and the victim doesn't have it lifted - it can sit there like an implant for a very long time - lifetimes.

4. Trance / Hypnosis
This is a kind of difficult one to explain in high level terms ... but basically I am going to use the metaphor of the multiple personality disorder .... one person may agree to do something in one state but not in the others - does this bind them in the same way that a sound mind oath or vow would?
I'm not sure entirely certain how this works, I've self-analysed and read the theories - but I think this is probably one of the biggest areas of concern in terms of souls getting captured in present times.

But - and this is very important - the minute you feel fear about it you are more susceptible to being influenced. There comes a point where once you've traversed the depths of your particular set up and you've woken up to the fact that at it's heart everything is all in reality and illusion (usually after some sort of catharsis or kundalini awakening) that you realise that your soul is your own, it always was, it is the observer, part of the greater Atman,, both everywhere and nowhere, both all and nothing ... and after that you just have to figure out what to do with the remaining days of your life.

Anyway that's how the hedgehog rolls
Peace
Ang

Hello young hedgehog,

If you are saying soul in our mind, then I would agree.
Mind has consciousness which holds thoughts, these are temporary events, and are changeable. Neuro linguistic programming sees to that!

However, when you were a little hedgehog and now a grown up hedgehog, that which observes all this coming and going....has never changed throughout that time! Is that what is being called Soul, or as some call Essence.

We are free beings. This pure being, was never born and can never die. We are embodied beings caught up in our play of karma. Once we exhaust our karma, which is only a load of fixated ideas we hold onto...we will be literally free!

It's amazing how one small idea creeps into our minds, and can rule our lives...we have a lot of them!

Keep on rolling,
Tony

[Tony]

Posted by jookyle (here)
Whether a soul can be captured or can not be captured is solely given to the circumstances of the soul and the soul relationship to circumstance. Someone just can't walk up and steal a soul but a soul can be captured by something out of the material conditions under which they died. A person never wants to leave his house, his connection to the house goes through more than just his conscious wich and reaches his soul. Now his soul is connected in that same strong way that his mind is. So when the soul leaves the body, it stays at the house. This is why you have ghosts "haunting" a house where the person to whom the ghost belonged lived their entire life. In the very soul of that man, he wants to stay i that house, so his soul does.

Hello Jookyle,

It's amazing how one small idea creeps into our minds, and can rule our lives...we have a lot of them!
At death we are energy with luggage. Our karma (which is only a bunch of ideas we have collected and hold onto) keeps us on a fixated track.
Is this the soul, or the mind without a body?

Tony

[angelahedgehog]

Pie'n'eal, exactly, 'We are free beings. This pure being, was never born and can never die. We are embodied beings caught up in our play of karma. Once we exhaust our karma, which is only a load of fixated ideas we hold onto...we will be literally free!'

But people still have to work through whatever is in the Mind consciousness - it's like finishing a book, painting, good meal or movie - as arduous as Frodo and Sam's journey is to the fires of Mount Doom, they still need to do it that way probably because if they hadn't struggled, Golum probably wouldn't have made the final sacrifice.... I know it's a movie, but it's a cracking metaphor too

Rolling along,
Ang