Can a soul be captured?

[Abhaya]

One thing to clarify, there is a huge difference between captured and harmed. If these are being treated as one and the same I think there is some misconception there. To a large extent we can argue we are captured already in this limited existence rather by choice or other reason dosnt matter. But I'm going to have to stick by the fact that no ultimate harm or in fact even minute harm can come to something that is catagorically different from even the most subtle level of the material universe. In the same way that you can't teach Spanish to a rock as a crude example. These things just don't mix.

[Tony]

From 6.20 gives the feeling of just letting go... to change.
Life is constantly changing.
"..you cannot hang onto yourself"

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ioFG999aOCs

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Abhaya (here)
One thing to clarify, there is a huge difference between captured and harmed. If these are being treated as one and the same I think there is some misconception there. To a large extent we can argue we are captured already in this limited existence rather by choice or other reason dosnt matter. But I'm going to have to stick by the fact that no ultimate harm or in fact even minute harm can come to something that is catagorically different from even the most subtle level of the material universe. In the same way that you can't teach Spanish to a rock as a crude example. These things just don't mix.

Maybe we get captured by being side tracked!

[Flash]

From anlgeedgedog:
But - and this is very important - the minute you feel fear about it you are more susceptible to being influenced.

,

You got it right there, the minute you fear you are susceptible to influence. Soul capture may be just that, influence for thousands of our human years. Inlfuence into believing soul can be capture or influence into anything by the way. Then the oversoul has to self correct and come and clean the influence - we come and believe we have saved a soul!! Even the poor bugger believes it because he is released of fear and influence, he thinks his soul has been released. Just thinking.....


Someone also said the soul self correct: this one makes my beliefs happy. My daughter came into this world with dysphasia (partial aphasia) which creates all kind of communication problems, inlcuding learning problems due to difficult communication. I had been told that in previous lifes she had used a bright mind with an agile mouth to blast people and destroy. Therefore, her soul self corrected this time around, she only over did it (a little too much correction to be normal). I like this thought, it makes it kind of more acceptable. lol Ok, I am sidetracking here...

[panopticon]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
This is something that is frequently misunderstood, and is absolutely not true. Souls most certainly can, under certain circumstances, be implanted, imprisoned, and/or harmed.

None of this damage need be permanent (although that's usually the intention); it can be completely repaired. But the harm, before being healed, can sometimes be extremely heavy and can last for the entire duration of a universe, or longer.

I, and many others, have personally freed trapped beings that have experienced and endured this. I do know exactly what I'm talking about here. I'm happy to share some details, though how this all happens can be complex and sometimes a little hard to understand without quite a lot more context.

G'day Bill,

Yes thanks.
I would like it if you could share some more details please.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[Tony]

I love a good ghost story.

When I was six years old, my brother and I would get under a blanket in a dark room, place a green and red torches under our chins and tell ghost stories.
Just good fun, until Mum would tell us to go to sleep.

Just good fun... however I'd always pull the bed sheet over my head...just in case!

Fantasy can have a detrimental effect on your mental health.

[Wind]

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
From 6.20 gives the feeling of just letting go... to change.
Life is constantly changing.
"..you cannot hang onto yourself"

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ioFG999aOCs

Eckhart Tolle speaks exactly of the same thing!

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=BqOgR61zAlo

[greybeard]

Sometimes I wonder if those who are unaware of conspiracy theories etc are a lot less harmful to the collective consciousness than those deeply immersed in who did what to whom!!!!

Chris

[Fred Steeves]

I'm rather partial to the metaphoric outbreath/inbreath of "God" Creating. Upon the exhale of Creating, everything is set free to lose itself utterly and completely in exploring whatever strikes it's fancy. This would of course include the thorough exploration of what we refer to as good and evil. Certainly this could even include the experience of the soul becoming trapped, and endlessly harvested of it's vital life force. On the flip side, there is the experience of being the harvester. Both are equally lost, and to separate the two versions of being lost as something different, would be equivalent to describing the top half of an apple as being different from the bottom half.

There very likely IS no way out of this in some cases, save for the calling to go home with the beginning of the great inbreath. Many will resist and struggle against this, and that's part of being hopelessly lost as well. In the end all arrive safely back home, and we have us a great time comparing our war stories and battle scars.

Once everything has died down, and the grand homecoming party is down to just that low murmur, there is invariably some joker in the crowd, probably someone like me, who will suddenly jump up front and center and yell "HEY, LET'S DO IT AGAIN!!!".

Cheers,
Fred

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Abhaya (here)
One thing to clarify, there is a huge difference between captured and harmed. If these are being treated as one and the same I think there is some misconception there. To a large extent we can argue we are captured already in this limited existence rather by choice or other reason dosnt matter. But I'm going to have to stick by the fact that no ultimate harm or in fact even minute harm can come to something that is catagorically different from even the most subtle level of the material universe. In the same way that you can't teach Spanish to a rock as a crude example. These things just don't mix.

It's all about the word 'ultimate'.

Yes, I agree that ultimately, no harm can come to a soul. But in between the start of eternity and the end (this is a metaphor!!), a lot of bad things can happen that are not necessarily chosen by the soul.

And that depends on your definition of "bad", as well. My definition of experiencing a bad thing is something like being imprisoned, tortured, used, abused, and implanted to be something quite different from one's basic identity, for up to quadrillions of years and hundreds of universe cycles.

In the end, that soul can be fully healed and rehabilitated. I have done this myself: I've been trained in the techniques, and how to apply them. But I would personally classify that experience as "harmful". This may really be what this discussion is about.

In summary: souls/ spirits are categorically not impervious to having bad, unchosen experiences enforced on them by others with agendas that break the agreements of those taking part in "reality". It's very important to understand this.

[Cristian]

From wiki:

"A frame of reference in physics, may refer to a coordinate system or set of axes within which to measure the position, orientation, and other properties of objects in it, or it may refer to an observational reference frame tied to the state of motion of an observer. It may also refer to both an observational reference frame and an attached coordinate system as a unit."


I noticed lately , there is a debate on this forum between two factions.

We have the "buddhists" team on one side and the "curious cats" on the other side. Both describing the same truth but from different frames of reference.

From the "buddhists" point of view everything is an ilusion. They love to oversimplify things. Nothing is real, so the sooner you let go of everything the better. "You are the source of all purity and impurity"...

Now "the cats" are more into the why, who and how mindset. I admit I'm more of a cat then a buddhist . I need to know.

I would like buddhists to start their posts by saying "from the highest frame of reference ..." and then post whatever they want to say. Then I will completly agree with what they are saying.

You know, I dont have the heart to walk by a man in agony, that was just hit by a car, and say to him: "It's just an ilusion you don't really have two broken legs".

Tony, you said you love a good ghost story.
You also said "Fantasy can have a detrimental effect on your mental health."

So i get you only had a slice of cake. By any means you did not tasted the whole cake. Lucky you...or maybe not.
I can tell you stories. Stories that left me asking, who, why , what in the world is going on?
I am willing to simplify things , like you do, only after i get my answers . And only after , from my cat frame of reference I see things changed for the better.

[Free Bird]

Thank you for raising this question on Avalon Pie'n'eal. I came across this thread by 'chance' and took a peek out of curiosity not knowing what to expect.

Over the last few years, I've become drawn to metaphysical speculation and have explored various spiritual paths. One of the the first things which became clear to me is that all religions seem intent on controlling the lives of humanity by using the carrot and stick method - the former being, "follow this and only this one and only path and you will achieve a place in heaven / paradise / release from this earthly existence; the stick being the fearsome, "stray off this one and only path and you will be damned for eternity / sentenced to hell in perpetuity / doomed to repeat endless cycles of death and rebirth in this earthly plane". Makes your choices and takes your pick!

What has this got to do with the question of whether or not a soul can be captured? Well, the way I understand it is that all of the above take the premise that there are three levels of existence / consciousness:

1. the body and mind
2. the Soul as a separate entity
3. the all pervading absolute reality / the source / god / heaven / Brahman etc

The implication here is that the Soul can migrate from one state to another. In terms of reincarnation, the soul takes its memories of the previous past lives and migrates into a body most suited for those previous memories. And thus one's Karma becomes the cycle of cause and effect. In a similar way, your deeds determine whether or not you go to heaven etc.

I suppose if one believes in the nature of the above and that the soul is a completely separate entity, then there is room for the soul to be, hijacked or at least, set on a path of eternal cycles of reincarnation or a state of everlasting hell or wotever...

I've been reading up on the philosophy of modern Advaita Vedanta, which takes the view that there are only two levels of existence, the absolute Brahman at one level and the body/mind at the other and that the soul or Atman is our consciousness, which is ultimately Brahman. So when we ask, ‘who am I?’, in modern Advaita, we would say, on the absolute plane I am Brahman and on the relative plane, I am this individual consciousness, this complex of I-ness, thoughts and sensations.

If one take this view, then it would be very difficult if not impossible to have your soul captured because ultimately you are Brahman - we are all Brahman - the one supreme, universal Spirit that is the origin and support of the universe.

My personal view is that if we look into ourselves and realise we are Brahman, then our "souls" per se cannot be captured. For me, this philosophy also chimes in with the idea we manifest different levels of reality through our consciousness, which is the game of life we all play today.

I'm not sure if I have articulated my thoughts very well - I hope that some of it at least makes sense

Peace and Love
-x-

[greybeard]

This video posted by StarSeed covers quite a bit that is relevant.

I believe that there is always present a way out of whatever prison you find yourself in.
Many things in a life things happen that no one in their right mind would choose but sometimes in greatest peril/adversity there arises an opportunity to escape--realise ones true identity--beyond form.

The late Dr David Hawkins, whom I am fond of mentioning, stated that he found himself in the depth of hell---formless, misery beyond description.
He called out "If there is a God I ask Him for help" according to him the energy of an Archangel saved him from that hell.

As with some others here I went through the hell of alcoholism and when I hit rock bottom and had enough humility to ask the God of my understanding for help that happened.
After being sober for some time I was nearly drowned in the Indian Ocean--- I surrendered and found my self winded, battered and bashed but alive on the surface and rescue to hand.
The power of belief phenomenal.
The fact that I was ok with dying relaxed me enough not to struggle to survive and make matters worse.
So that's my experience and I can only speak for me.

Chris

https://youtube.com/watch?v=BqOgR...layer_embedded

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=BqOgR61zAlo

https://youtube.com/watch?v=BqOgR...layer_embedded

[Tarka the Duck]

Posted by Chris82 (here)
From the "buddhists" point of view everything is an ilusion.

Hello Chris82

I feel that there could be a subtle but important misunderstanding here.

Buddhism does not state that reality is an illusion.
It is said that our version of what we think of as reality is the illusion.  

Very clearly the external world exists in the real sense of the word. When we interact with it, we project ideas, values, assumptions and expectations on to it: what we perceive is often more a product of our minds than the qualities of the object itself.

We see everything through the filter of our desires, memories, prejudices; the enlightened person ‘sees things as they really are’ .

In other words, what our minds construct as being real and true is merely an interpretation of what we see. It has no inherent reality.  
There is a simple metaphor for this; mistaking the reflection of the moon in water (an insubstantial, illusory image) as being the moon itself. The moon was always there, but we missed it because we were transfixed by its reflection.

In this way, everything that we see arises as a thought or reflection in our minds - what we think of as reality is really an illusion, and not true reality.

Incidentally, I never thought of it as "two factions"...

Kathie

[panopticon]

Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)

I feel that there could be a subtle but important misunderstanding here.

Buddhism does not state that reality is an illusion.
It is said that our version of what we think of as reality is the illusion.  

Very clearly the external world exists in the real sense of the word. When we interact with it, we project ideas, values, assumptions and expectations on to it: what we perceive is often more a product of our minds than the qualities of the object itself.

We see everything through the filter of our desires, memories, prejudices; the enlightened person ‘sees things as they really are’ .

In other words, what our minds construct as being real and true is merely an interpretation of what we see. It has no inherent reality.  
There is a simple metaphor for this; mistaking the reflection of the moon in water (an insubstantial, illusory image) as being the moon itself. The moon was always there, but we missed it because we were transfixed by its reflection.

Thank you Kathie,

So many make this fundamental mistake.
You explained it beautifully.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[Tony]

Posted by Chris82 (here)
From wiki:

"A frame of reference in physics, may refer to a coordinate system or set of axes within which to measure the position, orientation, and other properties of objects in it, or it may refer to an observational reference frame tied to the state of motion of an observer. It may also refer to both an observational reference frame and an attached coordinate system as a unit."


I noticed lately , there is a debate on this forum between two factions.

We have the "buddhists" team on one side and the "curious cats" on the other side. Both describing the same truth but from different frames of reference.

From the "buddhists" point of view everything is an ilusion. They love to oversimplify things. Nothing is real, so the sooner you let go of everything the better. "You are the source of all purity and impurity"...

Now "the cats" are more into the why, who and how mindset. I admit I'm more of a cat then a buddhist . I need to know.

I would like buddhists to start their posts by saying "from the highest frame of reference ..." and then post whatever they want to say. Then I will completly agree with what they are saying.

You know, I dont have the heart to walk by a man in agony, that was just hit by a car, and say to him: "It's just an ilusion you don't really have two broken legs".

Tony, you said you love a good ghost story.
You also said "Fantasy can have a detrimental effect on your mental health."

So i get you only had a slice of cake. By any means you did not tasted the whole cake. Lucky you...or maybe not.
I can tell you stories. Stories that left me asking, who, why , what in the world is going on?
I am willing to simplify things , like you do, only after i get my answers . And only after , from my cat frame of reference I see things changed for the better.

Hello Chris,


Briefly, saying everything is an illusion, is talking about what only seems to be real, constant, true. For if something is real, it has to be constant, and therefore true...it can never not 'be'.
Everything in the universe is of an impermanent nature, so, has the illusion of being real...a dream-like state.

That being said, even though we live in the present moment, in an illusory world, we have to take great care of it...and one another. Buddhism's first tenet is Compassion... Empathy. The reason for saying all is an illusion, is so we do not get hung-up on anything. Give everything its due respect, nothing more, nothing less.

For buddhists relative reality and ultimate reality are inseparable.

It is precisely because one understands the ultimate nature of our being, which is pure awareness, that this pure awareness looks out and sees every other being as having this same pure nature. However it also notices that these beings do not notice their pure nature, and they therefore suffer. That is why compassion arises.

The very nature of all things are their, none reality = they are Empty of any true existence, this body and mind included. But it is within this illusory body and mind that we have to work, it grounds us!

Gradually we peel away all our fantasies and ideas, and realise reality...we are none other than pure awareness. However our coarse consciousness keeps us here, because we do not want to let go.

We easily can say, “I want to let go!”...but we are still holding onto something...and that's me.

It's a very subtle business- not taking things seriously!





Tony

[Dorjezigzag]

Within all the great spiritual traditions there is a concept of hell. From the kingdoms of Hades and Osiris to the realms of the monotheistic Satan.

Buddhism of course does not limit its self to one hell with many Hells often depicted.

The Tibetan book of the dead is partly about navigating through the chaos of the afterlife in order that one may avoid hellish realms. The Ancient Egyptians were very concerned with the fate of the soul after death.

I have seen many people posting beliefs of the afterlife as though it is some kind of supermarket where we choose from a wide selection our next life in order that we can learn what we believe we need to learn. Of course in the afterlife consciousness is not as we know it here, your future direction is governed by your past actions, you become an energy that flows dependent on its nature.

I have always been very aware of my multidimensionality from a young age, I have seen tortured souls who are still living and those that have past on. The reasons are many for their suffering but there is always hope even if they cannot see it.

I have used this quote before but I think it relates to this thread, it was in the film Jacobs Ladder, a film about the afterlife, which is a must watch film and it claims that it was a quote from the German theologian, philosopher and mystic, Meister Eckhart (1260 – c. 1327.) Interestingly Eckart tolle took his name from Meister Eckhart due to his love of his works.

"Eckhart saw Hell too; he said: 'the only thing that burns in Hell is the part of you that won't let go of life, your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away. But they're not punishing you,' he said. 'They're freeing your soul. So, if you're frightened of dying and... you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.'"

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=zSzs4V6tkJQ

[confused]

Whether a soul can be captured or harmed infers there is a level of detachment, or individuality, in that spirit realm. So where does this individuality come from.

Ever since I began to awaken years ago, I often wondered on the true nature of the spirit/soul (whether there is a difference between the two I don't know, but for sake of this thread I will use them interchangeably). The fact that each of us is a spirit logically infers that even in our higher spiritual dimensions there is a division among us, perceived or other. So how do we get to that division in the first place? Where does this individual spirit (my soul versus your soul) come from? How are individual spirits created? Were we always around, or did some of us appear as individual souls in existence at different times?

Also, regarding David Icke's emphasis on the archons and their ruling demiurge - where does this demiurge come from? If we are all one, then this demiurge must be one with us as well - or not? How to understand this?

Another thing I have wondered, by what process do souls get to inhabit a body on Earth? Is it forced, is there a lottery system? I assume there are more souls that wish to incarnate than available bodies on Earth, so who gets to go?

Bill has given a small summary somewhere of some of his past lives, and it seems from the dates provided (this is just from my memory) they always come one right after the other - no breaks. So how come he gets to incarnate again soon after he dies? What about other souls?

These kinds of questions are of great interest to me, and I think they at least indirectly relate to this thread.

[Tony]

This thread is truly relevant to human understanding. Here we are discussing something that has interested people for thousands of years!

As Dorjezigzag says of Erkhart..."if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.'"


That is the unity of the two truths.

Thank you to all who are participating: every view shines some light on something!


Can the soul be captured? Well, if it exists, it can be side tracked....for a while

[AriG]

Yes- (from what I have been told.) Partially (separated from source in a single incarnation) or fully ( every incarnation simultaneously imprisoned). Fully captured souls for all practical purposes, cease to exist as they are stuck in closed circuit.

[Tony]

Perhaps we are been capture and put here....by our past actions = karma.