Bible Topics and Questions

[panopticon]

What are you saying here regards transgender persons?
I didn't find your response to Chris82 very clear in regards to transgender or intersex persons and their needs.

Hormone replacement therapy, for ongoing sex assignment after care, has been subsidised (as part of the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme) in Australia for years, as has various associated operations and counselling services. This has bipartisan political support in Australia.

According to the information available on the San Franciscan Bill:

• It will have a lifetime cap of $50000 per person.
• At this moment there are 14 people eligible working for the Municipality out of 37000 (around 0.038% of the workforce).
• There has been no negative respondents to the bill from within the state (only emails of complaint mostly from Texas).
• "All employees’ health costs would increase about $1.70 a month under proposed changes which also include coverage for hearing aids and acupuncture." Source: ABC

There seems to be conflicting reporting on this bill. Could you clarify if this is solely for Municipal workers (as stated by many primary reports) or if it is a general measure (there are a number of secondary articles saying that it is for every resident [see here and here]).

The coverage extends to hormone treatment and medical matters such as mastectomies or breast cancer. It will not cover cosmetic procedures and can only be used after a doctor deems treatment medically necessary. Employees first must go through an extensive medical review process that takes up to six months.

Payouts Capped

Even if the benefits are approved, they will not be equal, Arana said. Transsexuals would have to be employed a year by the city before they’re eligible for the coverage, which also has a lifetime $50,000 cap and a 15 percent or 50 percent deductible, depending on whether the physician is in the city’s health network. Source: ABC

Would also point out, for those interested, that the issue of transgender psychology is not associated with homosexuality, nor does homosexuality apply to intersex persons. The association of LGBT persons is only through their mutual call for recognition and acceptance. In my opinion gender assignment surgery should be an option for adults who are intersex or transgender and I applaud the San Francisco initiative.

I agree with Kreagle in that transgender identification is not a mental illness and should not be treated as such. In the instance of intersex persons, their sex assignment is an important aspect of both physical and mental health for the individual and should never be stigmatised.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

Further References:
What is intersex
Intersex frequency
Difference between transgender, transexual and intersex
ABC report
Fox News report
Improving the Health & Well-being of Transgender Queenslander's
Transgender Lawcentre
Health Care for Intersex, Transsexual, Transgender and Gender Diverse Australians
France: Transsexualism will no longer be classified as a mental illness in France

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by kreagle (here)
I just simply submitted the thread with the assumption that it would be categorized in it's appropriate place. I don't even know if I have the ability now to re-categorize this thread in the 'Spirituality' category or not.

Posted by panopticon (here)
Ask a moderator or admin to do it for you.

The mods and admins can move threads easily.

We do not routinely "categorize" threads. Most threads end up where they started.

Occasionally we will notice a new thread that's clearly in the wrong place, or another member will notice it and mention it to us.

Members cannot move their own threads, once posted, so it is best to make some effort to post threads in the "right" sub-forum in the first place.

We are less likely to move threads that already have been active for a while, unless it is a clear cut choice, for people already know where to expect to find it.

The General Discussion sub-forum, where this thread resides, is the general "catch all" sub-forum, so when in doubt, that's where threads end up.

I'm not convinced that this thread is a sufficiently clear cut choice for the Spiritual sub-forum that it should be moved there, now that it has been active for a while, so I am presently inclined to just leave it where it is.

[kreagle]

panopticon,

Greetings brother,.....long time, no see! Hope everything is well with you.

What are you saying here regards transgender persons?
I didn't find your response to Chris82 very clear in regards to transgender or intersex persons and their needs.

The Word of God doesn't put a 'division' between specific needs, and as such, neither do I. Regardless to whether one find themselves as a transgender, intersex, homosexual, etc.,.......they all share the distinction of having 'personal needs',....just like everyone else.

The 'entirety' of these particular posts,......'The Paul Harvey statement, and the San Francisco Bill',......deal with humanity going in the 'wrong direction' in their quest to satisfy 'these personal needs'. Everyone seems to want, and desire, to be 'changed' so they can be happy and fulfilled, but wind up 'masking over the problem with a band-aid'.

Thank God, the 'demoniac of Gadara' and the 'woman with the issue of blood' didn't have access to a 'society plagued with government funding and entitlement programs' , else they would have never known, or realized, the joy of being completely 'set free' from their respective afflictions.

There seems to be conflicting reporting on this bill. Could you clarify if this is solely for Municipal workers (as stated by many primary reports) or if it is a general measure (there are a number of secondary articles saying that it is for every resident [see here and here]).

The article that I posted is the only one that I have read,...and it states in the 'first few lines',......

..In just a few days, San Francisco’s legislature will vote on a landmark new bill that if approved would allow city employees to undergo sex change operations on the government’s dime.

This implies 'city employees' only, but you seem to have done a bit more research which would seem to incorporate others. If true, that would just make the 'proverbial snowball' even larger, wouldn't it?


Your friend, brother, and servant,........kreagle

[panopticon]

I free you Kreagle, you are no longer my slave.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=6rjjArvzXuc

Thanks for the response by the way. Your position is clearer now.
I again say that I am glad that San Francisco has adopted this bill and allowed for equality between individuals needing serious health services.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[kreagle]

panopticon,

I free you Kreagle, you are no longer my slave.

A somewhat 'revealing statement', in that I never realized, until now, that you were 'part of the opposition!' Of course, I realize your 'comment was basically tongue and cheek', was it not?

In an earlier post, I alluded to a forthcoming 'topic' of which I will entitle 'Rising above the Fray', to which I, and many others, have been able to accomplish through His Mercy and His Grace. It's the 'Fray' that formerly had me, and others, in bondage and incarcerated, and only 'one key' that was able to open the massive lock to 'make us all free'.


John 8:36 (KJV)

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


No, panopticon, you did NOT free me,...........HE DID!!!


While you may be 'happy with San Francisco's proposed band-aid policy',....I am 'overjoyed with Jesus' Total Cure and Deliverance availability'.

If it's any consolation to you, I'm afraid there will be 'quite a few more to sign up for the program you support',.....as opposed to the one the Bible, and I, recommend.

I know you 'genuinely' mean well, and credit you with that.

We'll just have to 'agree to disagree' my friend.


With 'kind regards and respect back to you',.......kreagle

[panopticon]

G'day Kreagle,

Thanks for the response.
You did misquote me though by saying: While you may be 'happy with San Francisco's proposed band-aid policy'.
I never said it was a 'band-aid policy' that was your expression.

I am a tad confused by your earlier post.
On one hand you make the very astute observation that everyone is equal:

they all share the distinction of having 'personal needs',....just like everyone else.

and on the other you said that they:

want, and desire, to be changed so they can be happy and fulfilled, but wind up masking over the problem with a band-aid.

I don't think that stopping discrimination while assisting people who are in pain, emotionally and/or physically, is a bandaid solution.

To say otherwise shows, to me at least, a lack of empathy.

Take for example the historical case of Florence “Florrie” Martha Cox who in 1914 was married to a Baptist missionary in India until it was discovered that she was an intersex individual who was unable to consumate the relationship. The marriage was annulled in 1917 by the Baptist Church, at her husbands request, records of the divorce sealed "for all time" by the courts and the Baptists destroyed records of the marriage ever having occurred. Ms Cox suffered from depression following this and eventually died in a mental hospital in 1950. If there had been a surgery option at the time it is possible that Ms Cox would have been able to have a fully functioning sex life and her and her husband would have been able to adopt children.

The above is not an isolated example, just an historical one, and there are many intersex persons (estimates vary between 1% and 4% of the population of which 'one or two in 1,000 births... receiv[e] surgery to “normalize” genital appearance') with varying degrees of separation from the gender norms. Some are in severe pain from the condition and need surgery to alleviate this. This is not cosmetic surgery, it alleviates a physical ailment, no different from any other operation or counselling for an individual who is in pain. Some intersex individuals choose to not undergo surgery as adults, others do. That is their choice and by having government assisting them it removes the added problem of needing to find money to finance the various procedures.

To quote the well respected Conservative Evangelical Minister Robin A. Brace on the compassion needed for intersex persons by those of the Christian faith:

... [T]his is a medical condition, people obviously did not choose to be this way. Every single Christian should exercise compassion towards such people. I suppose the decision is usually made, where they are small children, to take away certain parts of their anatomy and to raise them either as boys or girls (that is, where the genital ambiguity is clear when they are small children, and sometimes that is not so). My understanding is that this is often a huge mistake and some such people (who had such procedures performed when small) later even committed suicide. I am told that it is now recognised that such children should be left as they are until reaching maturity so they can make their own informed choices. That sounds very wise.

... Many people who have these issues later undergo sexual identity crises sometimes leading to them deciding to have genital rearrangement operations and are then, of course, probably going to be considered as 'transexuals' (although surely somewhat unfairly in their case; a true transexual is a person of one specific sex who changes to the other sex).

... [T]hese people have a medical condition and one they would not have chosen, at that. We don't ask: 'What happens if a cancer sufferer becomes a Christian,' or, 'what happens if a sufferer from chronic diabetes becomes a Christian.' Those matters are physical - not spiritual.

... I must say that I would like to see far more compassion coming from my fellow evangelical Christians in this area. These people never chose to be the way they are! Yet we tend to very quickly write them off. I have no doubt that many people who later consider themselves as 'homosexual,' or, 'bisexual' are, in reality, intersexual. Problem is: that first word has become a well-known 'buzz expression' under which 'umbrella,' if you will, people may arrange themselves. 'Intersexism' never became a popular buzz word.

Before you go on accusing me of being a 'part of the opposition!' know that I have to undergo periodic procedures that allow me to urinate and function "normally" so have an inside view of this issue.

I again say that I am glad that San Francisco has adopted this bill.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

References:
Intersex frequency
God's Triangle
An annulment of marriage due to being intersex
Where Do You Stand on Intersex Christians?

[kreagle]

panopticon,

I'm sorry for the 'confusion' you seem to be encountering, here. Let me see if I can clear things up for you.

To 'quote someone', this forum has a neat feature that places it in a box and looks like this,.......

You did misquote me though by saying: While you may be 'happy with San Francisco's proposed band-aid policy'.
I never said it was a 'band-aid policy' that was your expression.

You are correct, in that the 'band-aid policy' is my expression, and an accurate one when compared to what God can do. That's 'if' He is given an opportunity! Had I quoted you I would have, ( and always do), used the 'forum feature' as indicated above.

Let me 'restate again' the intentions and design of this topic, as I indicated in post# 323 above,......

The 'entirety' of these particular posts,......'The Paul Harvey statement, and the San Francisco Bill',......deal with humanity going in the 'wrong direction' in their quest to satisfy 'these personal needs'.

From a 'Biblical standpoint', humanity has embarked upon a 'wrong direction' when they,.......

1) endeavor to 'become creators themselves' and surgically change the male/female bodies.

2) provide and promote 'government funding' which makes this 'violation of Biblical principles' easy and convenient.

3) 'turn their problems over to mankind',.....instead of 'turning them over to God!', which reveals where their 'trust and confidence' really lies.


Psalm 118:8 (KJV)

8 It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

By the way,....did you know that this 'preceding verse of Scripture' is known as the 'middle verse of the Bible?' Coincident?,.....I think not, my friend,....for it reveals the 'very heart and desire of God' in our relationship with Him!


In relationship to the 'intersex' individual that you seem to be specifically targeting, I find myself in complete agreement with the views of Minister Robin A. Brace. Certainly, compassion is always in order for those who are afflicted in the birth process and enter into this world as such. Very tragic, indeed! I don't begin to profess to be an 'expert' on this at all, but this seems to be a 'mutation of sorts' within the womb of the mother, which leads to the person being born with a variation of 'both male and female' genitals, etc. As far as 'what to do, or how should mankind respond' in a situation like this, I would personally want to council with several of my 'brother's/sister's within the Church' and get their opinions also before I completely formulated my own. Rest assured, my final decision and outlook on this would be 'heavily God-orientated and inspired' and certainly not just a 'quick trip to the local surgeons operating table'.

It should be noted here, that the genesis of 'this topic' and the San Francisco article did not specifically appear to include this type of individual, the 'inter-sexual' person. Those individuals, as presented by the article, simply appear to have the desire to change from a male-to-female,...or vice versa. This, indeed, is a clear-cut wrong direction, from a Biblical standpoint.

I sincerely empathize with you, in relationship to the 'personal affliction' that you have shared with us, here. I will make it a point to say a prayer for you, my dear friend. Nothing is beyond the 'reach and abilities' of our Great Saviour and Physician, Jesus Christ!

Isaiah 59:1 (KJV)

59 Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

Before you go on accusing me of being a 'part of the opposition!'

I never 'formally thought this', brother,....until you informed me I was your 'slave'.


Post Update

You, equally, seem to be confused over this statement I made, also in post #323,....

The Word of God doesn't put a 'division' between specific needs, and as such, neither do I. Regardless to whether one find themselves as a transgender, intersex, homosexual, etc.,.......they all share the distinction of having 'personal needs',....just like everyone else.

'Everyone', panopticon, has a 'personal need' for the Saviour, Jesus Christ, in their lives, whether they realize it, or not. That means it is 'all inclusive' and totally involves the 'afflicted' that we have spoken of here, and the 'unafflicted' alike. Hence I use the term 'special needs' for I can't think of a better term than this to describe something that is 'so special and needful' to every last one of us!

Romans 3:23-24
King James Version (KJV)

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:



Your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

[kreagle]

The Dissatisfaction with the Country's Direction Grows,...and Grows


Link: http://www.wtsp.com/news/topstories/...n-Veterans-Day

FLEMING ISLAND, Florida (WTLV) -- In a patriotic Florida neighborhood there's one American flag that's standing out on Veterans Day, but it's also causing outrage amongst neighbors.

"I figure if they can burn the flag, if they can spit on it, if they can put it down as a doormat, why can't I fly it upside down?" says Philip Hoezel, a Fleming Island resident.

Philip Hoezel says he served the Navy for seven and half years and is now using his first amendment right to express his dissatisfaction with last Tuesday's election results.

"Under the conditions normally set for the military at sea, if you fly your flag upside down on a ship, it means you're in distress... I think this country is in distress," says Hoezel.

On Wednesday morning after learning that President Barack Obama was re-elected to a second term, Hoezel raised his flag upside down for the first time at this home. Veterans Day just happens to be his fifth day of what he plans to be a four-year-long protest, and it's also the day neighbors began to take notice.

"It's very disturbing... you know 26 years in the Navy, current Navy guy and I thought it was an accident," says Mike Walter, who lives down the street from Hoezel. "Then I did a little research and I realized people are doing this in protest and I just can't believe that on Veterans Day you would be so petty as to fly your flag upside down."

The Fleming Island neighborhood is a patriotic one, with quite a few veterans. Many residents raised their upright flags for Veterans Day and are not outraged by their neighbor's protest -- but by this form of protest on an American holiday.

"I think there's a lot more positive ways to express it. I don't think that's really helping anyone and I think it's probably hurting a lot of people's feelings," says Deb Hand, Hoezel's neighbor.

But Hoezel says that's not his intention. As a veteran, he says he respects the holiday and the country.

"Well, everybody's got their own opinions but the country is the country and no matter how you feel about a certain president, this is not right. So I think he should fix it," says Walter.

also,.....


White House website deluged with secession petitions from 20 states,.....

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/11/wh...#ixzz2C6TBwoVc


It looks like a 'different direction' is being sought by more, and more each day. I wonder how many will adopt the 'mindset of the Prodigal son?'


Luke 15:17-20 (KJV)

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.


May God richly Bless each of you!,.........kreagle

[Mad Hatter]

Mad Hatter dons his contrarian cap...

Hm...thread still in the general forum I see...fair enough...

I am a sui generis being as are we all and if you don't know what that means best look it up before making assumptions about where I'm coming from...

As such I am always stunned at statements like this...

Posted by kreagle (here)
'Everyone', panopticon, has a 'personal need' for the Saviour, Jesus Christ, in their lives, whether they realize it, or not.

It is perfectly fine for you to state how your god and your bible affect you and the universe you inhabit, but since your rights stop where mine begin (and vice versa) it is NOT alright for you to imply in ANY way that your god amounts to anything in my universe or anyone else's for that matter unless of course that is something they choose for themselves as the implications of doing so are a display either ignorance or arrogance.

I don't think your ignorant as you very cleverly sort to twist the plain English meaning of the word debate in your OP, a bit like a lawyer asking 'do you understand' when he is really using the legalese meaning 'do you stand under my authority'.

This was then followed up by a long blurb about TRUST. Really... how can I trust what you say after an exercise like that !?!!

Which leaves us at arrogance... keeping in mind someone has already been recently banned for proselytizing, you may like to re-consider blanket statements such as the above example. While your thread talks about you and your god and how your gods bible affects you and your life I'm happy to lurk on the sidelines and enjoy the insights into human psychology as to why that might be for you.

On the other hand when you go to statements such as the above implying that I need some sort of external crutch in the form of some mythical 'Saviour' in my life then you have chosen to step into my domain in, dare I say, a proselytizing manner and I will have no compunction about taking you to task about why you did that.

It is pretty easy really all you need to do is adjust your use of language slightly.

namaste

PS thanks for this link... seems more and more people are waking up to what the Jesuits have been up to for several hundred years....

Posted by kreagle (here)
White House website deluged with secession petitions from 20 states,.....

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/11/wh...#ixzz2C6TBwoVc

[kreagle]

Mad Hatter,

You do realize, my friend, that this thread deals with 'Bible Topics and Questions' and not 'Humanism Topics and Questions' don't you? As such, I am perfectly in line, and on topic, with my usage of 'everyone needing Jesus as their Saviour'. The Bible is very specific and precise on this, my friend. If you choose to 'follow a different course in life', that's perfectly within your rights to do so. A large number of people are highly intrigued with the 'wisdom behind God's Word' and find themselves irresistibly drawn to It for enlightenment, but recoil in anger when It reveals the 'need to be saved by Him'. Cherry picking the verses you wish to use, and discarding the rest, will not produce an overall result that you're going to find favorable in the grand finale, my dear friend.

There are 'several' passages of Scripture that I could use, here, but I'm afraid it would only inflame you, more than you already seem to be, and I have no intentions, nor desire, to do so either. That's not my goal, neither is it God's intention to use His Word in such an unproductive manner.

It hasn't gone 'unnoticed by me' that you seem to have a great fondness for 'donning various hats' and pulling them out when you feel it is 'the appropriate time.'

Perhaps you might like to, one day, don the hat of 'belief and Trust in Jesus Christ.' Of course, if you have no intentions of going this route, that is your choice and privilege to do so.

I'll make a deal with you, Mad Hatter. I promise I won't get 'mad at you if you don't elect to wear the hat I've suggested',......if you won't get 'mad at me, and the others here, who elect to proudly wear It,.....OK?' That sounds pretty flexible to me, wouldn't you say?

You're more than welcome to 'stick around and contribute as you feel necessary',....but I cannot, and will not, accommodate you with a 'debate' here, as that would violate the OP.


On a 'more important note',.....I'm curious to a statement that you originally made on your 'first post here'.

Hmm.. so much material and so little time...

Your usage of the term 'so little time' causes me to wonder 'what the clock is telling you' to make you say this?


By the way, Mad Hatter, if you enjoyed the website I shared with you earlier, then take another look at it, for it now appears that 'everyone', ( all 50 states), are hopping on board in a 'mass attempt to secede'. Boy, oh boy!


White House ‘secede’ petitions reach 675,000 signatures, 50-state participation

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/14/wh...#ixzz2CD7qMaE9

Love and Peace,......kreagle

[panopticon]

G'day Kreagle,

Thanks for the response.

I misunderstood and thought you were quoting me "in-line" as opposed to a lengthy quote (which would use the feature mentioned).
Your use of extensive single quotation marks in your posts to designate 'terms of phrase' made it unclear (maybe this is a US English characteristic that I am unfamiliar with).
Thanks for clearing that up as it was a mistake on my part.

In relation the the use of the term "slave".
You are correct, I should have said "servant" as in your sign-off: 'Your brother, friend, and servant, .......kreagle'.
It would appear you are unable to laugh at what was obviously a joke but felt the need to twist it (please obey your own directives in the OP regards discussion/debate).

So as to be clear. The following is a joke

I welcome your decision to remain in servitude to me though would point out that, unlike hotels in California, you can leave at any time.

Romans 1: 24-27 (GODSWORD):

For this reason God allowed their lusts to control them. As a result, they dishonor their bodies by sexual perversion with each other. These people have exchanged God's truth for a lie. So they have become ungodly and serve what is created rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen! For this reason God allowed their shameful passions to control them. Their women have exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. Likewise, their men have given up natural sexual relations with women and burn with lust for each other. Men commit indecent acts with men, so they experience among themselves the punishment they deserve for their perversion.

This is one of the passages from the NT used in relation to sex change operations and homosexuality. It does not really apply to sex operations but is mixed in with a bit of Genesis, Romans and Corinthians to form a position. If this is incorrect then please direct me to other passages that apply.

Posted by kreagle (here)
It should be noted here, that the genesis of 'this topic' and the San Francisco article did not specifically appear to include this type of individual, the 'inter-sexual' person. Those individuals, as presented by the article, simply appear to have the desire to change from a male-to-female,...or vice versa.
... in a situation like this, I would personally want to council with several of my 'brother's/sister's within the Church' and get their opinions also before I completely formulated my own.

The point of my preceding posts was to point out that things are never "black and white". There is always a rainbow in between.

I have done this and I'm glad you have decided to call for further input from those of your church before you come to a conclusion of your own.
This area is one that people, particularly fundamentalists, say is "an affront to God and Christ" without taking into consideration the diversity of individual situations involved.

The carefully formed position of Minister Robin A. Brace, that I quoted from in a previous post, is important as he recognises that there is diversity in this debate and that it should be considered from a non-dualistic position.

For example:
There are some (not all) lesbian women (who would be ostracised by some so-called "god fearing people"), who were born male but through damage to their penis at circumcision, or being intersex and assigned a gender at birth, have been bought up as female. So in these instances the biblical quote above is really unclear. If they are living as females, have female formed genitalia, are in a same-sex relationship and are unaware that they have XY chromosomes, are they lesbians? Should they be told by fundamentalists that they are "going to hell"?

What about the intersex person bought up a male who enters into a relationship with a female? Are they OK according to the Bible? What if they need hormone treatment to assist in a lack of testosterone? Penile implant?

This is a very complex issue and what your post did was simplify it so you could have a rant. That's all.

As I have said before, the Bible is an interesting book and I have absolutely no problem with people using it as they choose. Just like to point out that in some instances its unclear, especially from a modern viewpoint, and while easily quoted, the use of it as a tool of hate should always be tempered by careful consideration.

I look forward to hearing what your groups position is and am truly glad that you have realised that the situation is much more complex than you previously thought.
Thank you.

I again say that I am glad that San Francisco has adopted this bill.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[kreagle]

panopticon,

Thank you for your reply, brother.

Romans 1: 24-27 (GODSWORD):

For this reason God allowed their lusts to control them. As a result, they dishonor their bodies by sexual perversion with each other. These people have exchanged God's truth for a lie. So they have become ungodly and serve what is created rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen! For this reason God allowed their shameful passions to control them. Their women have exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. Likewise, their men have given up natural sexual relations with women and burn with lust for each other. Men commit indecent acts with men, so they experience among themselves the punishment they deserve for their perversion.
This is one of the passages from the NT used in relation to sex change operations and homosexuality. It does not really apply to sex operations but is mixed in with a bit of Genesis, Romans and Corinthians to form a position. If this is incorrect then please direct me to other passages that apply.

The passage you have quoted from in the Book of Romans accurately gives God's overall view on the subject of homosexuality/lesbianism. As you have already alluded to, it does not specify, or deal with sex operations, etc., nor do I have any knowledge of any other passage of Scripture that does, either.

I do understand that the topic of 'transgender or intersex' falls into a different category, in that they were born that way, to no fault of their own. I was raised on my father's dairy farm in rural Alabama, and have seen, first-hand, calf deformities at birth. As I referred to, earlier, it appears that this 'deformity' begins in the womb, and generally develops because there was a 'twin, or another egg, originally involved', which consequently became 'dissimulated, or absorbed' by the stronger, more vibrant, egg. The results of this is why we go on to see animals and humans with 'extra body parts', whether it be additional fingers, toes, limbs, heads, and yes, even sex organs.

We know that Jesus used the term 'physician' within the Scriptures, and that He appears to give His blessings to use them, when it is appropriate.

Mark 2:17 (KJV)

17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Obviously, the 'transgender/intersex' individual is not 'whole', or complete,......so that leads to the next question,...."Just HOW should mankind use the physician in a case like this?"

A very 'delicate need', indeed,.....for we're not talking about an 'animal' where we could just 'lop off any extra parts,... or rearrange them', as we see fit. Instead, we are dealing with a 'soul',....and that's another thing all together. This is where 'further Godly council and direction' would have to come into play before proceeding to the 'next step', if one is to be taken at all. I'm in agreement that 'something needs to be done', but I don't currently have all of my 'facts and understanding' of this, at this time.

One thing is certain though, in that God equally loves the homosexual, lesbian, transgender/intersex, just as much as He loves the rest of us, as pointed out by the 'second half' of the Scripture that I provided above. They have access to Him just like everyone else does!

.......I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mark 2:17 (KJV)


On a side note,......


How was the 'total solar eclipse' like 'down under' that you guys got to witness?


Your brother, friend, and servant,........kreagle

[panopticon]

G'day Kreagle,

Thanks for the response.

In regards to the solar eclipse, I'm about 2000 miles from where it was best seen (bloody banana benders get the sun shine and eclipse, least we get snow) but got a glimpse of the partial this morning.
Some good images from North Oz are available on Auntie:
Eclipse 2012 photos
Total solar eclipse: Did you miss it?
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[kreagle]

Rising above the 'Fray'


The term 'fray' has several meanings. As a 'noun' it can mean,.....fight, battle, skirmish, altercation, squabble, and civil unrest. As a 'verb' it means,......to wear by rubbing and to cause to ravel out, or the unraveling of threads and fibers. The commonly used phrase,....'coming apart at the seams', comes into play here. It also is defined as 'becoming stressed or strained', to upset or discompose.

All of these descriptive terms, concerning the word 'fray', have always accurately described, ( to some degree), the world in which we live. An 'up to date view of our country and our world' should literally be an 'eye opener' to those who are astute observers, for the 'fray' has seldom been worse that what it is right now. To make matters worse, it doesn't seem to appear that the current course we are upon is going to change, any time soon, for the better, and could very well become much, much, worse. Too many will take a look at what I am saying, here, as 'fear-mongering',....while a few others will recognize it for what it is and take measures to offset it's effects.

America, and the rest of the World, is in a 'major fray' with civil unrest at an all-time high, and to the point that everything seems to be 'coming apart at the seams'. The 'stress level and strain' is being felt by all causing the personal loss of composure to those around us. Our economies, world-wide, are 'stressed and strained' and deteriorating day by day. The latest skirmishes between Israel, Syria, and Palestine have gone beyond the 'boiling point' to the dismay of the entire world, for we all know, down deep in our hearts, what this really means for us all,.....and that's an all out war, perhaps even WW3.

Israel: 3 civilians killed by rockets fired from Gaza as violence escalates

Link: http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...escalates?lite

Israelis react to a warning of a rocket attack. (Jim Hollander / EPA)



Jihad Masharawi holds the body of his 11-month old son. (Majed Hamdan / AP)



Israelis take cover as a siren warns of incoming rockets. (Nir Elias / Reuters)


It's time to 'Rise above the Fray', to a whole new level of life, before we all become entrenched and absorbed by the 'fray'. itself.

To those of you who have, somewhat, 'come to know me', I'm sure you can tell by now, in what direction I will go in to 'Rise above the Fray.' Yes it is controversial to a great deal of people, but It's effects are unparalleled and It has no equal in terms of effectiveness and totality. I welcome anyone else's 'suggestions', as to what, or how, you might deal with this 'fray' we are continually encountering. Bear in mind that we should all be looking for a 'real fix and solution' to this global dilemma, and not just 'slap a band-aid on it' as I've made reference to before.

At this time, I will share a passage of Scripture with everyone that gave me the genesis to the 'thought pattern' behind this 'Rising above the Fray' topic.

Acts 1:7-14 (KJV)

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

I have 'additional comments' to make on this, in light of this passage, but would like to, first, hear many of your 'thoughts and proposed solutions' to this ongoing problem.


As always,....your brother, friend, and servant,......kreagle

[latshaw]

Kreagle: You are correct....just becuse two people disagree, does not mean they have to be disagreeable.
I have been following your thread. I have been looking at your replies. Keep up the good work and I understand what you are doing in this Thread. In love, light and learning - Latshaw

[kreagle]

Posted by latshaw (here)
Kreagle: You are correct....just becuse two people disagree, does not mean they have to be disagreeable.
I have been following your thread. I have been looking at your replies. Keep up the good work and I understand what you are doing in this Thread. In love, light and learning - Latshaw

latshaw,

Thank you, dear sister, for your reply and kind words. I have many things to yet share, here, so I sincerely hope and pray that you will become a regular and participate accordingly. I also want to extend a warm and hearty 'welcome' to you, here on Avalon.


May God Bless you!,.......your brother, friend, and servant,........kreagle

[kreagle]

In continuance of,.........


Rising above the 'Fray'

Acts 1:7-14 (KJV)

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

As Jesus' earthly ministry drew to a close He made some revealing statements about the measures His children needed to take in order to make that 'heavenly journey', themselves, one day. Of course, He Himself, led by example and directed us to follow His example, also.

John 16:33 (KJV)

33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

To 'overcome the world' literally meant to 'come out on top of',.....or 'be victorious over',....and we certainly see that He fully expected His children to be 'over-comers themselves'.

1 John 5:3-5 (KJV)

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

In light of the above, it shouldn't come as no surprise that the 'last act Jesus performed on this earth' was an 'overcoming one'. After completing His instructions to His disciples and followers, He literally 'scaled the stairway to Heaven' and ascended up to His Heavenly Home. He 'rose above the fray' and was victorious over it!

Further examination of the Scriptures reveals that the disciples, His mother Mary, His natural brethren, (siblings), and the rest of His followers, ( approximately 120 in number), equally had to 'separate themselves' and 'rise above the fray', too. Likewise, they found themselves 'scaling a stairway',...( this 'one' on their way up into the upper room), where they entered in 'one mind and accord' and were consequently rewarded with the 'gift of the Holy Ghost' and 'born again' as Jesus had made reference to Nicodemus in John chapter 3:1-7.

Certainly, there are detractors today, ( just like there were 'back then'), who will do everything they can to side-track those who endeavor to 'separate themselves' and climb their own 'personal stairway to the upper room' where they, too, can experience the 'same' glorious infilling of God's Spirit, the Holy Ghost. The methods that today's detractors use are virtually the same as those of 'yesterday', in that they endeavor to employ,......'doubt in God's Word, or God Himself',.......'down-playing the level of commitment that the believer wishes to give to God',.......'and the rejection given to those who endeavor to 'separate themselves' for this higher calling of God!',.....just to name a 'few'.

The '120 of yesterday' had 'these same detractions' to deal with, ( in some way or the other), on their way up the 'stairway to the upper room'. Had they 'listened to the detractors of their day', they would have found themselves robbed of their 'glorious experience of being filled with the Holy Ghost'. Instead, we thankfully find that 'they turned a deaf ear to those detractors of yesterday', and still climbed the stairway to the upper room. They 'rose above the fray of their day', just as we will need to 'rise above our fray today'.

We will 'always' have the fray amongst us,......the only question is whether we will be 'absorbed by it, and be part of it',.....or......will we wisely take the measures to 'rise above the fray' where God beckons us all?

As I mentioned in my original post on this, I understand this 'level of commitment' is controversial to many today, and a great deal of individuals feel that these measures are unnecessary and over-stated. No doubt that is why we have this particular admonition in Philippians to,...."work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".

Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV)

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Does this mean we can 'write our own ticket' or terms? No,....not hardly,.....but it does mean that the 'ultimate responsibility resides with each one of us'.

Whatever 'choice' we may make, in reference to our 'immortal souls' is our own personal responsibility and we control that destination with the course of action we take.

I believe we 'all' have an 'awesome choice' to make,....don't you?

Everyone wants to climb the ultimate 'stairway to Heaven', my friends, but be very mindful, indeed, that there exists a 'stairway to the upper room' that one needs to visit before you reach that next 'ultimate level'.

Your brother, friend, and servant,.......kreagle

[kreagle]

Pretty outrageous behavior.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=4dZAKWPx604

Proverbs 14:12 (KJV)

12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

[kreagle]

Sorry for double-post. My error.

[kreagle]

A 'Restless Society'


It seems that the 'latest flavor' of restlessness that we are being served, especially here in America, is one that is threatening to push us all off the 'Fiscal Cliff' of financial solvency. Of course, this in reality is a world-wide problem, with global consequences, and has been plaguing us all for some time. Whether the ultimate culprits are irresponsible political leaders, or the wicked plans of the 'elite's of the world', ( as we have all been aware of), we still find ourselves on that proverbial 'Fiscal Cliff' teetering ever-so-dangerously towards plummeting off the edge and to complete financial ruin.

On top of this we are constantly faced with the growing unrest of the Middle East, ranging from the Israeli/Hamas conflicts, to a 'brand-new, self-proclaimed dictator' in Egypt by the name of Mohamed Morsi. Boy,....the Middle East really needs 'another dictator', doesn't it?

No wonder 'restlessness' abides and has seemingly reached a flourishing point on this 'grand stage that we refer to as Life'.

But,......it doesn't have to be that way! 'Rest' abides, and even flourishes, in our 'restless society' to those who will 'seek It out and embrace It.'


Isaiah 'prophesied' about It,......

Isaiah 28:11-12 (KJV)

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Jeremiah 'foretold' where to go to 'find It',......

Jeremiah 6:16 (KJV)

16 Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Tragically, it should be noted, that in 'both' of the Scriptural references above,...by Isaiah and Jeremiah,....that the 'majority' of those who were enlightened about what to look for when 'It, (rest)', arrived,....and 'where to go' to find 'It, (rest)', the results were the same. They simply 'would not hear, nor walk therein'.

This tragedy seems to continue today, for the rejection level to this 'heavenly rest' is at an 'all-time high' and grows even more-so with each passing day.


From the 'prophets', we go to the 'Rest-giver, Himself',......

Matthew 11:28 (KJV)

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

As per the prophetic words of Isaiah,...."For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.",.....this is 'exactly' what transpired and happened to the 120 in the upper room, on the Day of Pentecost, ( Acts 2:1-4), and 'also' what transpired and happened to me, kreagle. I've spoken about this glorious event in my life, in great detail, in many of my past posts. The prophet, Isaiah, went on to accurately state,....."This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing:,...." Truer words have never been spoken! I now was in possession of the 'rest' that my soul had always been craving for, but never thought that It truly existed!

The infilling of the Holy Ghost,....the Spirit of God, Himself,......is our 'rest',....if we will simply 'hear and walk in the old paths' that our forefathers, the Apostles, blazoned for us back on that monumental day, in the Book of Acts, chapter two.

I'm fully aware that 'many' men/women have selected, and are currently embarking, on a 'totally different' pathway from the one that I have described here. Many use information and literature that is vastly different to what I've expressed and quoted from here. Let every man/woman be persuaded in their own heart. It is our/your complete and divine right to do so. The responsibility stops at our own 'personal front door',....doesn't it? Out of great love and concern, I simply ask everyone to 'examine and re-examine' whatever 'system or methodology' you are currently using, as to the 'quality of total rest' that it brings to you current life.

Our society will always remain 'restless',.....and with just cause.

But,......the 'restlessness' doesn't have to apply to 'everyone',....my dear, dear, friends!


As always,.....your friend, brother, and servant,......kreagle