Metaphysics:Where Science and Spirituality Meet

[9eagle9]

Deceased. It means dead, cease to exist.

Right?

Wrong.

It doesn't.

De (away from)

Cease (ending, stopping)

It means away from dead. Away from ending. It's word that relates more to living and reincarnation than death.

The problem with the emotional body is that water is hard to contain. If you put it in a container and it freezes it will break the container. If you freeze it, it will melt. If you contain it too long it escapes by evaporation and rejoins itself. You can't put a drop of water in the ocean and hope to expect to retrieve it again. Water is very difficult to control, its run all over the world spraying its graffiti that results in constructs like the Grand Canyon. In this respect we see how Air and Water court and consort with each other, how they are different but similar. Air leaves graffiti too, and Air of course is found in water. Like air its hard to contain. This gives rise to the concept of unlimited. Air can stir water in ways that result in creativity or destruction depending on what the condition of the water is like. Spirit moves through air much more easily than through a toxic emotional body. they are both pneumatic in nature. However... We spend our lives inviting spirit into a toxic environment.

The only way to contain the emotional body is to make it toxic. Imagine a glass of clear water . The water will escape eventually. Puts some drops of die in and toxify it. That is the only way to control the emotional body is to poison it. Most people have toxic emo bodies. Detoxifying is the only way to manage it.

[Curt]

Modwiz,

Thank you for this thread. I've really appreciated the insights and the substance.

One thing occurs to me. In the movie Dr. Strangelove, there is an American general who is obsessed with the Soviets' alleged covert attempts to steal 'his water'.

He seems unhinged in a quiet and determined sort of way. As I recall, he's more concerned about this theft of his 'bodily fluid' than nuclear annihilation.

In the context of the film, it is very funny.

But in relation to the information in this thread concerning water, i.e., its inherent properties, and its function as a 'conductor' for human emotion/behavior--I now see this scene in a whole new light.

[modwiz]

I am not quite ready for another big one, although I am forming it in concept. The water hasn't broken on the idea yet. LOL
So a quick concept/word buster.

Keeping up with the thread has impacted my eating habit somewhat. I am eating less of what I normally do, but filling in the gaps with not the most optimal selections. Not sure if I'm gaining weight of losing it. The only reason I mention this is because it sets up a quick discussion on positive and negative and their popular usage and meaning. So if I am losing weight that is a negative thing, because my weight is decreasing. Subtraction is negative in nature. One can say 4 negative 3 equals one. It may sound odd because we would normally say minus. Minus is negative. However, If I was overweight or obese most would say that is a positive thing, because positive has become synonymous with good. Removal of the more powerful and core nature of words is bad magic. Bad magic is usually intentional. There are some bad habits that could pass for bad magic as far as intent goes. Even though it is not intentional. Getting a headache? (The above example was inspired (plagiarized) by a conversation with 9eagle)

Proper word usage and spelling matter. Spelling often reveals the intent with homonyms. It is one thing to utter a spell where sound vibration is everything. Writing is another form of magic.

This is a warm up to where I am going next. A primer on the elements and beginning a discussion on the mental body. It may have seemed as if some of us have been picking at, blaming the emotional body for all kinds of ills. Wait until I start on the mental body. The emotional body will have a fit, LOL. The emotional body's reaction to ideas has almost everything to do with the mental body. The mental body is the emotional body's keeper. It is also its' primary container. All of that will become clear or clearer when a discussion of the elements, their properties and association with the anatomy, subtle and otherwise, is discussed.

[Freed Fox]

Posted by CurtisW (here)
Modwiz,

Thank you for this thread. I've really appreciated the insights and the substance.

One thing occurs to me. In the movie Dr. Strangelove, there is an American general who is obsessed with the Soviets' alleged covert attempts to steal 'his water'.

He seems unhinged in a quiet and determined sort of way. As I recall, he's more concerned about this theft of his 'bodily fluid' than nuclear annihilation.

In the context of the film, it is very funny.

But in relation to the information in this thread concerning water, i.e., its inherent properties, and its function as a 'conductor' for human emotion/behavior--I now see this scene in a whole new light.

[Jeffrey]

Water Has a Memory

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ILSyt_Hhbjg

ADD/UPDATE:

The Shape of Sound

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=DGSU5rcHmRQ

[modwiz]

Posted by Vivek (here)
Water Has a Memory

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ILSyt_Hhbjg

What a brilliant and thoughtful contribution this is, Vivek. Yes! Water has memory, it programs, retains any coherent vibration. Sure it can retain incoherence, but that is static noise that is self clearing. Clearing of the water, resetting the programming and memory. These are a huge part of the healing of the emotional body. True forgiving is a form of clearing. Not easy for most, but the right use of will always works.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by 9eagle9 (here)
Deceased. It means dead, cease to exist.

Right?

Wrong.

It doesn't.

De (away from)

Cease (ending, stopping)

It means away from dead. Away from ending. It's word that relates more to living and reincarnation than death.

From my Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged (1968, pg 584):

de-cease [ ME deces, from Latin decessus departure, death, from decessus past participle of decedere depart, die, from de from, away + cedere to go ]

So, in particular, the "cease" in "decease" refers not to an ending or stopping, but rather to a traversal ("to go"). To "decease" is to "go away".

I was not a good student of Latin, but I was a Latin student of some sort for three years, and this seems right to me.

[modwiz]

I am sort of taking the weekend off from posting. For whatever reason, my mental body is sluggish. I hope to get a post out later.

Here is a thread that is complimenting the discussion here. https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...901#post611901
It discusses loosh. Emotional management and loosh are companion discussions.

Here is an excellent article at the excellent Montalk.net site.
http://montalk.net/matrix/64/emotional-management

[Mark]

A few thoughts, putting some things together. Not wedded to much here, just thinking with my fingers about a few of the interrelated topics spanning these threads:

Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces, Water Signs, are obviously the folks who are going to represent the extremities of its expression in the world, being ruled by their emotional centers. Because the Earth Signs, Capricorn, Taurus and Virgo, get along so well with the Water Signs, and are also extremely emotional, they have many of the same issues. The Air Signs, Libra, Aquarius and Gemini are head-ruled, more detached, as are the Fire Signs, Aries, Leo and Sagittarius.

If you were to rate them on the scale of emotionality, I suppose Water and Earth would be more right-brain ruled, Air and Fire, more left-brain ruled. Given the many planetary and star-based variations possible, with Ascendants and Moon-signs, squares and trines and all that - all taken alongside the reality that they are templates only and can also be affected by life circumstance, family, societal and cultural emphases - generalizations remain just that. The biological programming of Astrology is not a straight-jacket. Just an indication of nature. Nature can be transcended and is meant to be.

Considering the many profound scientific and biological potentialities as laid out by Vivek in the "metaphors of meaning" thread, that "programming" may be more applicable to those who are more slave to their biology than some other people might be. As an example, someone who is genetically compromised, potentially an unconscious OP, with biological "original sin" compromising at the mitochondrial level of their being may represent the "tares/pre-adamic" in aspects of their personality development, as opposed to the non-compromised individual with mitochondria more or less intact, representing those who are of the "wheat/adamic" lineage. Those so compromised may represent the templating of Astrology more rigidly than those not so limited, who possess the ability to "transcend" their programming. What comes immediately to mind is the warning by Gnostics and others that the two types of people are fundamentally different in nature and there is little or no chance of the OPs obtaining the capacity to express higher capabilities during their lifetimes.

And yet, again, environment plays a large part and can overrule the biological programming if the impetus to do so is strong enough. Monarch Alters come to mind as one example. Psychological trauma inflicted at an early age through any number of methods or experiences either human-planned or karmic/dharmic in nature. Trauma-based programming can only lead to an intensified material expression of what are already potentially biological limitations.

As 9e9 stated earlier (i think, in this thread), when the chemicals start pouring into the body - as a result of fight or flight or some other mentally-based stimuli that begins the process of an emotional rush state - that overwhelming feeling can be very difficult to control. For the biologically-compromised, it can be impossible to control, hence, the reality that psychopaths are impulse-oriented, find it difficult to plan and do things on the spur of the moment. At the same time, psychopaths can plan serial-killings, long-term machinations on the stock market, create institutions and pograms that play out over decades and centuries. So, at the extreme ends of the bell curve you find individuals of the same orientation displaying oppositional characteristics that may have something to do with their natal charts and the environmental parameters of their upbringings.

[modwiz]

Posted by Rahkyt (here)
A few thoughts, putting some things together. Not wedded to much here, just thinking with my fingers about a few of the interrelated topics spanning these threads:


Considering the many profound scientific and biological potentialities as laid out by Vivek in the "metaphors of meaning" thread, that "programming" may be more applicable to those who are more slave to their biology than some other people might be. As an example, someone who is genetically compromised, potentially an unconscious OP, with biological "original sin" compromising at the mitochondrial level of their being may represent the "tares/pre-adamic" in aspects of their personality development, as opposed to the non-compromised individual with mitochondria more or less intact, representing those who are of the "wheat/adamic" lineage. Those so compromised may represent the templating of Astrology more rigidly than those not so limited, who possess the ability to "transcend" their programming. What comes immediately to mind is the warning by Gnostics and others that the two types of people are fundamentally different in nature and there is little or no chance of the OPs obtaining the capacity to express higher capabilities during their lifetimes.

I picked just this small piece for your post. Excellent post, BTW.

The two lineages, have for the most part, co-mingled extensively. Which side of the lineage does one lean toward? As it may be seen, there is room for the view that one gets the genetic package they get and that's it. I have my take on that view. There are options.

Epigenetics allow for going under (around or over also apply here) the hood and making adjustments within the 'operating system', so to speak. I believe there is an underlying 'lesson' here in this situation. Who one is and how one operates is a choice. The beauty of this the fairness of it. My cosmological view has me picking my parents, genetics and country of birth, to name a few parameters. Many do not accept this view. They do not see it. I think they are not really looking. To stand in this view takes away all claims at victimhood. All "poor me" paths close down. This is not to deny that these "poor me" moments arise from time to time. It is do declare bullsh!t of the idea/feeling as a long term legitimate on that gets any focus attention.

To a true sovereign and autonomous requires one to think like one. This is not about isolation. Comparing notes, like this and other threads, is the way forward, IMO. We can, and are wise to, help one another we just can't do it for another. Comparing notes can be helpful as long as confusion is avoided. As always, when helping, one has to be aware that altruism invites parasitism. Awareness can prevent or remedy such things.

In the above scenario, wheat and chaff are self selecting. We can then get away form the false, we are all equal meme. It is not a true statement by any observation. This applies to the concept of equally capable in all ways. Most do know this but, memes are built to bury this. With that said, I am all for equal access to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We are equals as inhabitants of this planet and are partners in the resources.

The concept of the masses getting to vote for their government is one of the Protocols of the elite. The purpose being the governments we now see and have.

[9eagle9]

In Latin Decessus means exactly what it means.... in Latin.

In english the word means the opposite when it's parsed.. in english.


Latin remains somewhat of an uncorrupted language because it's a dead language. There isn't much in the way of lingual shifting there because it's no longer used conversationally. That is why sciences use latin, so a word remains the word its always been.In English this not so. So when people complain about the complexity of latin words in biology and science books its because the definition remains dependable in doing so.

It is hair raising to know how many people confuse arenica with arsenic.

Now with our convertible programmable languages De-Cease when broken down into its prefix and root form in English and using English parse forms, it means the opposite of what people have been told it means.

The basis of programming.

Parsing fell out of our school curriculum ages past for this reason. So people don't know what words mean.

[Mark]

Hi Modwiz. There is a parable in the Kolbrin, written about the time of the Great Flood, that speaks to the idea of victimhood. It also speaks of multidimensional entities that men sacrifice unto, their - and our - orientations and - to an extent - their relation to this world. Rather than writing a long thing, I'll include that for now as I find it apropos of our conversation at this turn of the bend. Etymologically speaking:

Victim: late 15c., "living creature killed and offered as a sacrifice to a deity or supernatural power," from L. victima "person or animal killed as a sacrifice." Perhaps distantly connected to O.E. wig "idol," Goth. weihs "holy," Ger. weihen "consecrate" (cf. Weihnachten "Christmas") on notion of "a consecrated animal." Sense of "person who is hurt, tortured, or killed by another" is first recorded 1650s; meaning "person oppressed by some power or situation" is from 1718. Weaker sense of "person taken advantage of" is recorded from 1781.

Considering the "topic of topics" we are currently engaged in, it is fitting that this term does not mean what people generally think it means. At the same time, not everyone who looks like a victim necessarily is.

Thus, it is written in the record of Beltshera; In those days the people were wicked and
though the wise men among them gave many warnings of the wrath to come, they
would not listen, such is the way of the wicked. So it came about that the Chastening
Spirit became stirred up against them because of the odour of wickedness arising from
the Earth, for her nostrils abhor the smell of evil. This is a smell no man can know, for as
the hounds know the smell of fear, which no man can detect, so can other beings know
the smell of wickedness.

The great floodgates which are above Earth were all opened. Thus, the floodwaters
rose up to cover the land and great rainstorms lashed down. The winds could no longer
discover their destinations.

The people left the plain of Shinara and fled up into a great mountain rising above the
flatlands below, and here, near the summit, they camped. Feeling themselves secured,
the wicked mocked, saying, "No water can ever reach up here, for there is not enough
of it in Heaven or Earth". Still the waters rose ever higher and the mouths of the wicked
were silenced. The priests of the people danced and chanted in vain, and many rituals
were performed to appease the wrath above.

There came a period of quietness, then the people built a gateway to Heaven wherein
the Chief of Interpreters might commune with the Other Realm. He entered into the
silence and cast his spirit, and when he had done so it contacted the Chastening Spirit
which men call by other names. Her voice was heard within his heart and it said, "I am
that which has been called forth by the odour of wickedness arising from the bodies of
men, which no incense can disguise. For as the smell of putrefaction assails the nostrils
of men, so does wickedness give forth something which assails us in this realm.
Wickedness is, therefore, an offence against us. If a man threw filth over the wall into
your courtyard, would you not consider this an act of hostility? Could any among you
live in harmony with those who were insensitive to your own sensitivity? Thus, I am
awakened to happenings in the world of men and am now clothed in a performing
substance".

The Spiritbeing said, "I have no desire to unduly punish men. Go out to the people and
tell them that if they will but mend their ways and walk no more in the path of
wickedness, I shall depart". But when the Chief of Interpreters returned to the people he
found them fearful and distraught, clay in the hands of false priests, devotees of the
baleful gods. The false priests were crying out for a sacrifice to their gods and had
seized Anis, a young man more handsome than any other, a messenger and runner
between cities. Then, though they whispered fearfully among themselves concerning

the deed, the people had seized Nanua, handmaiden of Eloma, the Enlightened One,
whose life was dedicated to Illana, for she had cried out curses upon their heads when
the young man was taken.

Nanua and Anis were held by the false priests and about them surged the great mass of
the people, and though the Chief of Interpreters raised his voice it went unheeded. Then
the mass of the people moved down to the water's edge and there they stopped while
the priests shouted prayers to the gods raging above. All the Heavens were darkened
with great rolling clouds and there were high winds and lightning about the mountain
top. The people rent their garments, the women wailed and men struck their forearms.
Anis was beaten with a club and delivered to the waters.

Then, as he who wielded the club turned towards Nanua, she said to those about her,
"Let be, I will deliver myself to the waters, for if I must be sacrificed I would be a better
sacrifice so given". Then she went down to the waters, but as her feet entered she drew
back from the cold dark watery depths before her. But as the one who wielded the club
moved forward, a young man, Sheluat the Scribe, a man of quiet ways, neither
handsome nor strong in body, pushed forward and, taking her by the hand, went down
into the waters with her.

The waters had risen high and men shared the place where they stood with wild beasts
and with sheep and cattle, but now the tumult quietened and the waters drew back.
Seeing this, the people shouted praises to the baleful gods and cried out, "Great are the
mighty gods, and great their holy priests!"

The Chief of Interpreters went sorrowfully apart, hiding himself, for now he was fearful
for his life. When the waters had subsided, he cast his spirit and entered into
communion with the Chastening Spirit, and he said, "Shall I also enter the falling waters
as a sacrifice? For life is now futile, as I am without God or honour". The Great One
answered, "Men see in events the things they wish to see, they can interpret only
according to their understanding. The waters rose to their limitations and did not fall
because of the needless sacrifices. The Powers above may ordain events to chasten
men, but more often such events are challenges and tests. However, divine intervention
is rare indeed".

"These priests follow another, a longer path, but they too condemn wickedness and they
too point the way to Truth, though that way may be indirect and beset with hazards. So
whether they or you reached the ears of the people the odour of wickedness will be
diminished. Divine ends are achieved by diverse means, and the eyes of few men are
opened to see either the means or the end".

"Life is never futile, but your sacrifice would be. No man can lose his God, for He is
always there; but the prestige of a man because of that God such prestige is a worldly
thing of little real value. How do you know whether you have lost or gained? Events of
the moment cannot be weighed in the moment, but can be assessed only by the
judgement of the years. Only eternity knows whether this or that was good or bad, a
gain or loss".

Then the Great One opened the eyes of the Chief of Interpreters, so he saw beyond the
earthly border into the realm beyond. Behold, he saw Anis who had been strong and
handsome on Earth, and now he was something not pleasant to gaze upon. He saw
also the true beauty of Nanua who was now a being of dazzling loveliness, and beside
her was Sheluat who had always loved her secretly, and he was now glowing with youth
and handsome as Helith. The Chief of the Interpreters then understood that evil could
be transmuted into good, and that men had little knowledge of the true nature of things.

Upon the mountain there is now a grove of trees and a temple built in the form of a
circle of white stones, where the people remember the day of their deliverance. But
what they recall and what happened are not the same, nor is the cause in their minds
the true cause. They say, "We are the children of Atuma who saved us". Many who have
gone often to the Temple of Deliverance say they have seen two shades, one radiantly
beautiful and one gloriously handsome, wandering hand in hand through the trees or
sitting in the sunlit glades. All about is now a place of peace.

[Freed Fox]

Thanks Rahkyt, I enjoyed that excerpt... I believe the quotes below are especially wise;

Men see in events the things they wish to see, they can interpret only
according to their understanding.

Divine ends are achieved by diverse means, and the eyes of few men are
opened to see either the means or the end.

The Chief of the Interpreters then understood that evil could
be transmuted into good, and that men had little knowledge of the true nature of things.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Modwiz

With regard to white light. I can see where this comes from, the abuse of light as a protector. Silly new agers! No idea of the four elements and the alchemy principles. The earth and sky, sun and moon. Astrology and timing. The sudious adept can bring these together to bring the good merlin into phase.

I have one caveat regarding white light. in 94 i learned sacred silence meditation which is indian shaman in origin from tom brown s learned method from stalking wolf. In it it uses white light but its intended for healing because it contains all the light rays and its brought in from the feet.

I think where new agers get it wrong is they are trying to introduce the doctorine of a " protector " in christian religion, into metaphysics and call it protection. Silly billies :-)

Back to sacred silence. I have been practicing it as a shaman since but over the years i edited it down and somewhere along the way i lost the white light part of it. Just recently ( 2days ago ) i dug out the original sequence and tried it verbatum. And sure enough this white light came in and you know what, it burned me from toe to head. I mean it was fierce! And yes it was good :-)

Of course i used my usual tinctures to enhance the whole experience but my gods! It was intense. In this white light was intended for healing as it carries the spectrum in it. When a body is relaxed and calm it is then in a state to recieve the eminating frequencies of the light matrix. When you recieve the light it can then re arrange, proportional to your quality of preperation, the body to a nominal reset. Or generally straighten out your kinks. What i found was it also shewed out some hangers on and man there were a few lol cute little critters feeding off my ant man goodness hah

Anyway, i really like this thread and i hope to contribute what i have learned and since we are here when i became a shaman i was told that my next step was to become a merlin and have been dilligently studying ever since. Im happy to say my final initiations happen soon. Well as soon as i get the rest of it right lol

I wish to thank you as in reading this thread one of the pennies fell. It was a joyous occasion! Thank you for your dedication to the craft.

Naniu

[lookbeyond]

Thankyou Rahkyt for the link to the Kolbrin,

Kind Reguards lookbeyond

[modwiz]

Posted by Nanoo Nanoo (here)
Modwiz

With regard to white light. I can see where this comes from, the abuse of light as a protector. Silly new agers! No idea of the four elements and the alchemy principles. The earth and sky, sun and moon. Astrology and timing. The studious adept can bring these together to bring the good merlin into phase.

I have one caveat regarding white light. in 94 i learned sacred silence meditation which is indian shaman in origin from tom brown s learned method from stalking wolf. In it it uses white light but its intended for healing because it contains all the light rays and its brought in from the feet.


I wish to thank you as in reading this thread one of the pennies fell. It was a joyous occasion! Thank you for your dedication to the craft.

Naniu

I enjoyed your post and contribution. My comment about white light is that is usable by almost any entity. For personal use it is great, sending it is where is can get tricky, IMO. The reasons for this get into more complicated considerations, I wish to not dwell on at this point. Perhaps at another time.

The world can always use another Merlin. Lady's of the Lake may have other opinions. LOL

[modwiz]

Time for a little Metaphysics 101. I will be presenting classical Western style subject matter. Something any good Wiccan would know. There are many magical traditions around the world. I have been exposed to a good number and always look to see how any tradition, connects their cosmic dots. The following elements and their associations are ones I have used and felt the power of. They work together like the notes in a musical scale. There is rhyme, rhythm and reason to them in my experience. What I will offer here is not a regurgitation of information.

Basic Elements are Fire, Air, Water and Earth. In the Chinese system there is Fire, Metal(Air), Water Earth and Wood(Ether). I have to mention the Chines system because it is not really different and it is a slightly different way of working with the same energies. Cultures do come into play with these systems.

Western systems do have a concept of Ether, but it is considered an Element of higher vibration (dimension) that the basic four find their source in.
The Metal/Air connection will show in the Element correlation with the Tarot.

Fire is associated with the quality of Spirit. Air with the quality of intellect or mentality. Water with the emotions. Earth with he physical body and tangibility. That would be things that are tangible and can be worked or held in the hands.

Fire is the suit of Wands, Rods, Staves, Spears, Batons, etc. Long objects made of wood. Excellent materials for making a fire with. It is with wood that one can call forth fire and sustain it. The direction is South.

Air, is represented by Swords in classical Tarot decks. There are many types of Tarot decks these days with legitimate alternative 'takes' on things. Legitimate because the energy of the Element is maintained. Here is whee we see the meeting of the Chinese Metal, with Western Air. The keen edge of a good sword is symbolic of the keen edge of a good intellect. Very good at cutting through the crud. The direction is East

Water, is represented by Cups, Grails. The direction is West.

Earth is represented by, Pentacles, Disks. The direction is North.

Just a little more for now. It is my hope others will want to expand on this meager offering. I wanted to get some of this basic information out so that any language or terms I use going forward will have some point of reference. It is also sets up some jumping off points for me or others.

[PurpleLama]

Right now there are four candles burning on the altar on the porch. The colors I am using are not traditional, rather they express my chosen preference. In the East, is purple, Air, in high magic it is associated with the archangel Raphael. In the south is pink, the element of fire and the angel Michael. In the West is black, the element of Water, the angel Gabriel. In the North is white, the element of earth and the angel is Uriel. It's funny to me that Uriel alternately translates, depending on the exact hebrew spelling, as the Lion of God, and the Fire of God, as it's the elemental association of earth. I guess the fire of god is safe in the temple of earth, the temple being the human body.

[PurpleLama]

Scratch that, I remember now, Ariel is the lion of god, and Uriel is the fire.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Posted by modwiz (here)

Posted by Nanoo Nanoo (here)
Modwiz

With regard to white light. I can see where this comes from, the abuse of light as a protector. Silly new agers! No idea of the four elements and the alchemy principles. The earth and sky, sun and moon. Astrology and timing. The studious adept can bring these together to bring the good merlin into phase.

I have one caveat regarding white light. in 94 i learned sacred silence meditation which is indian shaman in origin from tom brown s learned method from stalking wolf. In it it uses white light but its intended for healing because it contains all the light rays and its brought in from the feet.


I wish to thank you as in reading this thread one of the pennies fell. It was a joyous occasion! Thank you for your dedication to the craft.

Naniu

I enjoyed your post and contribution. My comment about white light is that is usable by almost any entity. For personal use it is great, sending it is where is can get tricky, IMO. The reasons for this get into more complicated considerations, I wish to not dwell on at this point. Perhaps at another time.

The world can always use another Merlin. Lady's of the Lake may have other opinions. LOL

This is why i stay clear of rocks, trees and caves. Not nessesarily in that order :-) mmmm ha ha aa h

Thank you, iam enjoying reading this most excellent thread

Carry on

Naniu