The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

[AwakeInADream]

Have you noticed that Art galleries are quiet places of reverence almost like church?
I think that in a way, whilst looking at great paintings of the centuries gone by, you may really be gazing into the soul of the Artist.
I guess that's why some work is very highly priced, since the soul itself is priceless.

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I have a question to do with strange particles that also relates to what LookBeyond mentioned.

I've heard it said lately that 'the veil is thinning', so I'm wondering if this is true as a physical fact?
Is something changing in the world, or is it simply people who are progressing?

Is it really becoming easier as time progresses to see into the higher dimensions?

And also is it getting easier for higher beings to manifest in this one?

[AuCo]

Surface skimming: making long stride along a clear path, just inches off ground for as long as I wish to stay afloat. Yes, this happens when I feel some what in a rush, and only in a dream, until it actually happened in real life.

[soleil]

question for all those who are attempting to OBE and who actually do OBE....are any of you guys parents to young children? if so, do you have any advice to any people who also have young children; or advice on how to learn/do OBE with young children?

like for example at the end of a day i am really tired at night, and can sometimes feel drained. i'd like to still attempt to OBE, but i feel like my energy is consumed and my sleep is hijacked just so that i can re-energize. i still read/learn and consume info all the time on OBE and energy sensations etc. so i'm very bodily/energy aware (learning to be)...i'd love some help.

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by AwakeInADream (here)
...
I've heard it said lately that 'the veil is thinning', so I'm wondering if this is true as a physical fact?
Is something changing in the world, or is it simply people who are progressing?

Is it really becoming easier as time progresses to see into the higher dimensions?

And also is it getting easier for higher beings to manifest in this one?

First it might help to clear away some debris before I attempt a response to your questions, Awake.

Any talk of "the veil lifting" is passive. How about "you lifting the veil" at least for yourself?

Near the beginning of this thread I talked about how vital great detachment is. Well, the whole 3D world itself is just something that everyone keeps creating. It's a game we all agreed to play in (as some kind of wild bet, maybe?). We agreed to play so long ago we've forgotten we did.

To become free of the 3D world permanently, what you need is huge independence of mind -- make that independence of spirit. You need to swim totally against the current of what everybody else around you believes to be the most rock-solid reality.

Can you do that? That's "all" it takes to tear up the entire 3D "veil". But do you have the strength to say : "Let the whole world stand against me. I don't care. Let them go jump in the lake. I'll hold my own against absolutely all other opinions and so-called facts." That's the level of detachment. You do that, and you'll be able to fly easily enough.

Will you dare to do it? Do you dare to go there now? Now is the only time. Will you create something extraordinary out of nothing, rather like Leonardo often did? And some people -- even spiritual teachers -- are so misguided they want to claim that enlightenment means sacrificing some of your true individuality. Codswollop.

If I may, I'd like to invite you to pause for a moment for some stillness and groundedness before we continue.

[lookbeyond]

Hi TH- i cannot fully abandon 3D because of the connection to my children. I want to but am holding back because of the glimpses ive had, i feel i may not be able to control it and need my mind to be stable for the purposes of being a mother.The interest is so strong thats why im always reading and yet my psychic mother experienced physical attack from ? astral/ET - this is also a concern- i know love is the strongest defence yet being out of a familiar environment one is surely vulnerable to surprise
element, and from reading horus-ra thread i do wonder how safe IS the astral?

Kind Reguards lookbeyond

[AwakeInADream]

I think I understand what you're saying TH, that the 3D world is just a dream, and I should stand firm in this knowledge. That the mind is more real, and that mind creates the game.
As Einstein said "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one".

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh! Since Lookbeyond mentioned the Horus-Ra Archonic types, I don't really understand that thread, but I'm of the opinion that if you remain vigilant and mindful of your thoughts and without fear then those guy's cant really hurt you, can they?
I mean, it's mind that they attack isn't it, and if you have control of your mind then that's check mate isn't it?(I might be wrong...like I said I don't really get that thread)

Can you give us any advice on what to do should we bump into any unpleasant(to say the least) entities?

(I guess that at a deeper level mind too is an illusion and that only the Spirit is real, but.. one step time...)

P.S. I'm starting to realize that this thread has greater implications than simply leaving the body:

Neo: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?
Morpheus: No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to.

Your a pretty cool teacher TH!
Thanks!

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by lookbeyond (here)
... my psychic mother experienced physical attack from ? astral/ET - this is also a concern- i know love is the strongest defence yet being out of a familiar environment one is surely vulnerable to surprise
element, and from reading horus-ra thread i do wonder how safe IS the astral?

Kind Regards lookbeyond

It doesn’t make sense to me for anyone to be concerned about psychic attack while they go OB but not any less concerned about it when they aren’t OB traveling – unless that person happens to have been a victim of very strong abuse, or has been a practitioner of black magic. The same rules of “hygiene” apply in both areas. You don’t let yourself be a victim through possessing a lack of awareness in whatever situation you’re in.

If you keep washing your hands properly beforehand and within minutes or less after each time you’ve touched anything that might have made contact with them that could even cause infection, you won’t ever get infected. To me, that’s what psychic protection means.

Because I was a natural psychic healer from childhood on, at one stage I decided I must be good at doing exorcisms. I used to go out of my way to try to bully and chase away demonic beings, or dead indigenous beings whose traditional burial sites had been violated. So I do know directly what some psychic attacks can be like.

As far as I understand, there are only four likely causes of psychic attack. One can occur if the individual has used drugs some time in the past. That may have opened up a psychic vulnerability and weakness that hasn’t healed yet. If such an individual gets attacked while they’re OB, that then makes them aware that the unhealed psychic wound is there, and they can work on it. But the wound won’t get any worse because of such an attack – unless they’re foolish enough to have used drugs right now to get OB. I haven’t read the Horus-Ra thread, but it’s clear that Justoneman has done great job of finding and working on all his wounds.

The second cause is something like extreme abuse – which can be purely verbal – from a figure such as a spouse or a parent. Such abuse breaks an individual’s self-esteem and their confidence. That type of treatment is psychic attack, but while the individual definitely wasn’t OB traveling. But it can cause the individual to have a weaker hold of their body, so to speak. That can be a kind of red flag for some exploitative beings without bodies, or some with bodies too, to take advantage of that individual.

The third cause is if there is a very aware person, or someone who is strongly corded to the individual, who has put a strong spell or curse or voodoo on the individual. But that will apply equally whether you are OB or in your body. And the way to heal yourself of its effects is effectively the same as the way to psychically protect yourself, as I have described. And again, going OB could help the individual become aware that the problem exists.

The fourth cause is through doing or having done something that is black magic. Or else the equivalent of black magic, i.e. deliberately summoning some forces of negativity to adversely affect another individual.

(Well, I guess the fifth cause would be if you attack demonic beings.)

In conclusion, to any normal person I would say there’s nothing to fear as long as you psychically protect yourself properly. And yes, real love, or rising to at least 6D, is another form of psychic protection different than what I’ve mentioned so far.

And if you have been a victim of serious abuse or a black magician, or you used plenty of drugs, first you probably do need to get healed of much of the effects of that before you go exploring OB.

[Vitalux]

For what it is worth.

About 5 months ago, I started focusing on having an OBE
I achieved it.

It can be done, all one has to do is stay focused with intent and intention.
Most nights now I explore.

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by AwakeInADream (here)
I think I understand what you're saying TH, that the 3D world is just a dream, and I should stand firm in this knowledge. That the mind is more real, and that mind creates the game.... I'm of the opinion that if you remain vigilant and mindful of your thoughts and without fear then those guy's cant really hurt you, can they?
I mean, it's mind that they attack isn't it, and if you have control of your mind then that's check mate isn't it?(I might be wrong...like I said I don't really get that thread)

Can you give us any advice on what to do should we bump into any unpleasant(to say the least) entities?

(I guess that at a deeper level mind too is an illusion and that only the Spirit is real, but.. one step time...)

P.S. I'm starting to realize that this thread has greater implications than simply leaving the body..

If you meet any entity or being in the astral, you just need to have sufficient sense of your own worth to demand that they show you who they really are. Also to stand your ground if they try to ignore you or to be arrogant towards you. And if they look like they want to mess with you in any way, simply tell them up front that they have to get your permission first before they attempt to do anything to you, and they they don't have your permission. They rely totally on bluff.

Also surround yourself with healing light. And give them healing. You can also call on your guardian angels at any time, which may sound corny but watch that being run away fast if you do that. And also stay feeling like you're in charge of yourself, rather than frozen in fear, as you say, Awake.

[Eram]

Posted by teradactyl (here)
question for all those who are attempting to OBE and who actually do OBE....are any of you guys parents to young children? if so, do you have any advice to any people who also have young children; or advice on how to learn/do OBE with young children?

like for example at the end of a day i am really tired at night, and can sometimes feel drained. i'd like to still attempt to OBE, but i feel like my energy is consumed and my sleep is hijacked just so that i can re-energize. i still read/learn and consume info all the time on OBE and energy sensations etc. so i'm very bodily/energy aware (learning to be)...i'd love some help.

Hi teradactyl,

I'm a father of 2 children (5 & 2 years old) and I know exactly how you feel .
Since I run our bed and breakfast and work on a internet project at home, my girlfriend has a job away from home, it is my duty to attend the children during the day time.
I need my sleep hard at night and trying to go OBE at night is not populair with me too.

Many people advice to do this during the day time anyway and so do I.
I have the luxury that between 12:00 h and 13:30 h, mostly... I have time of so I can lay down at the sofa and give it a go.
That would be my advice...
Try to seek for a moment during the daytime for doing your practices.

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by teradactyl (here)
question for all those who are attempting to OBE and who actually do OBE....are any of you guys parents to young children? if so, do you have any advice to any people who also have young children; or advice on how to learn/do OBE with young children?

like for example at the end of a day i am really tired at night, and can sometimes feel drained. i'd like to still attempt to OBE, but i feel like my energy is consumed and my sleep is hijacked just so that i can re-energize. i still read/learn and consume info all the time on OBE and energy sensations etc. so i'm very bodily/energy aware (learning to be)...i'd love some help.

Hi T.,
I happen to know that Shamz has a young child and other responsibilities, but still manages to do OBE and probably other forms of spiritual or personal development - and I hope she doesn't mind if I say she's doing it all with great success and very ambitiously -- but still successfully. At present she's away overseas, but she may be able to reply in about a week's time.

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by AuCo (here)
Surface skimming: making long stride along a clear path, just inches off ground for as long as I wish to stay afloat. Yes, this happens when I feel some what in a rush, and only in a dream, until it actually happened in real life.

Are you saying you can levitate, AuCo? If so, what did you do to learn that? Meditation? T'ai chi? Q'i gong? And how often did you practise? Did you have a teacher?

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by lookbeyond (here)
... i cannot fully abandon 3D because of the connection to my children. I want to but am holding back because of the glimpses ive had, i feel i may not be able to control it and need my mind to be stable for the purposes of being a mother. ...

Realizing you're far, far more than your body, making it real to you that you are -- that's the big issue. Awake hit the nail on the head there. (OB "travel" is only one of so many, many ways to begin to realise this.)

Why might that be relevant to being an outstandingly good parent? Because every child is born knowing it is Source. It's only the parents and siblings that gradually teach the child no, you're just a body. Children learn from their parents, primarily from copying them, copying what it is to be them.

Some famous studies have proved that up till the age of eight months on average, an infant believes their mother is actually a part of them, an extension. Kind of like you don't always see your foot but you know it's there and it does pretty much what you want it to when you need it. At earlier ages than that, infants believe they are the universe.

Why does it make a huge difference to have a parent who knows for a fact that they are far more than their physical body? Because the root of all neuroses, all unhappiness, is created by the child's being forced to believe that it isn't Source.

I understand one spiritual teacher. Andrew Cohen, used to believe that anyone who experienced genuine spiritual enlightenment was automatically cleansed of all their neuroses, pretty much. I guess he probably should have known better. But you understand why he believed that, given what the origin of all neuroses and psychological problems is.

And the reason why enlightenment doesn't immediately resolve everything (or mean that everything has now been resolved) is as follows. Once you've realised and truly live in the fact that you're Source, it still takes decades to dissolve away the roots of all your psychological failings.But if you live long enough in a condition of such realisation of what you truly are, eventually all the baggage will be dissolved. To you, life will become more and more like a (drug-free) party. And when I say "life", I mean doing things that to everyone else are very hard work, like raising a child, or doing the most boring or the most lowly form of work. Even that will become a party to you if that's what the universe makes it your lot to do.

In my next post, I guess it'll help to explain a little about what being Source does and doesn't actually mean in practice.

And let's not forget that I'm not here just to give you theory. I'm assuming you're all working to make it more practical. Otherwise, the theory always sounds way more complicated than the reality when you experience it, or even partly experience glimpses of it.

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by AwakeInADream (here)
I've heard it said lately that 'the veil is thinning', so I'm wondering if this is true as a physical fact?
Is something changing in the world, or is it simply people who are progressing?

Is it really becoming easier as time progresses to see into the higher dimensions?

And also is it getting easier for higher beings to manifest in this one?

We don’t lose our true individuality by being one with Source – that’s what I claim. In fact, we are all Source, and yet we are all different. How can this be?

I like the Zen Master Joshu’s metaphor for the universe (for all there is) of a diamond with, say, trillions of faces. Who you really are is that diamond, seen through one of its faces.

Each face is unique. In that one face is a reflection of some sort of all the other faces. But you have a unique, individual angle, a unique take on (every-)things.

The faces of the diamond nearest to yours are (probably) all human ones – other humans. So, if any one human learns how to glow with light, the reflection of their light will automatically spread somewhat to all other humans, and also to all the rest of the earth, and even, somewhat, to the ends of the multiverse.

There is a Buddhist story that each time one of the Buddha’s students reached enlightenment, the trees would release a huge shower of petals and leaves. Maybe that story is meant just as a metaphor. But each being’s liberation affects all the rest of existence in a positive if unseen way.

Because of this, my understanding is that humanity has been constantly lifted higher overall, at least from the end of the Dark Ages. And things certainly have been accelerating in recent decades.

And as far as individuality goes, I say that true individuality can only express itself – and therefore be itself – where it is combined with profound interdependence with other consciousnesses. In my experience, enlightened individuals are very individualistic, even though at the same time they are usually very simple.

I probably haven't given anything like a complete reply to Awake's questions yet, so I'm doing as much as I can in instalments.

By the way, there's more to it than that. For instance, Source is more like a verb than a noun, as is the real us.

[ROMANWKT]

Watch these videos, and you will understand what an OBE is and how it all fit to your very self


https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...ester-Levenson


Regards

roman

[TraineeHuman]

Roman, do you have any experience of OBEs? If so, could you perhaps tell us what it (such experience, as strictly distinct from your theory of everything) was like?

[ROMANWKT]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
Roman, do you have any experience of OBEs? If so, could you perhaps tell us what it (such experience, as strictly distinct from your theory of everything) was like?

In this case I will let the videos answer it for you, it does not come from me my dear friend, but from somebody who know very well as your self.

Kindest regards TraineeHuman

roman

[Libico]

Thought I’d post an experience that I just woke up from.

Dream of being cheated on but still remain happy and loving throughout the process. Love my wife and wish that she was with me, but am OK with the fact that she left me for someone else, as she might not be as happy with me as I am with her and I truly want the best for her. The feelings were genuine in the dream – I did feel very hurt initially, but by end felt what I can only describe as pure happiness and a sense of closure unlike anything I’ve felt in 3D. This could have a big part because I read around 60% of the document that ROMANWKT posted yesterday on Lester Levenson.

After they leave (they confront me on couch where I get them to admit it to me and get it out in the open) I reflect to myself how odd this feeling is – that I am “ok” with my wife leaving me and I still can be supremely happy for them. I look in the mirror and something seems “off”. I test this by trying to push my finger through the glass to test if this is a dream. I fail to pierce the glass (my finger forceably hits the glass), but somehow I become lucid anyway. I take a few seconds to marvel in the lucidity and immediately request to go OB.

I feel a rush/surge of energy and start to float “upwards” as everything fades to black, which is similar to what has happened in other experiences. As things are fading I become excited at the vibrations and recall my previous OBE where everything was fairly hazy. I say to myself in an amused this “THIS time I want everything to be clear” (my last experience that originated from a lucid dream was extremely hazy because for some reason I didn’t ask for clarity). The vibrations intensify and everything fades to black completely as I surge upwards.

I appear in what I can describe as a big room that resembles a department store only near empty of tables/shelves – the space is quite open with a few tables strewn about the space. There is an entity in front of me that I hold a short conversation with (can’t recall how he looks but he had a tall blue hat and was much shorter than me). The first thing I do is ask for clarity and for clarity to remain with me throughout this experience. I get it and am satisfied so I start to wander around this room. I walk a bit, do a little flying/floating around and soon ask to meet my higher self. What happens next is strange and leads me to believe that it’s possible that this was just a lucid a dream*, or I could have been in 5D or 6D based on what TraineeHuman has described… the whole experience seemed rife with symbolism so I’m left wondering.

After asking to meet my HS I feel a rush of energy and from the ceiling lowers down a banner of sorts with a website address on it (it was clear in my memory as I was in this experience as I was trying to decipher it throughout the dream). It was a plain white banner but on either end of the banner were Styrofoam objects that looked like a ball with 50 or see spikes sticking out from it all around. I found this fascinating and tried all sorts of methods to decipher this message and meet my HS within the experience with no success.

I soon realized I was not alone in this area. There were probably around 20-30 little “people” running around. Each person was around 1.5m tall (from all ages, through 90% adults) and they were very busy running around working – some were creating things, other setting things up – reinforcing the idea that this was a department store of sorts (likely this was my mind translating it for me). They all seemed supremely happy with what they were doing and I started talking to a woman who looked to be around 50. We chatted about something I can’t remember now, but she suggested that I go and speak to the “mayor” (again I felt like this was my mind translating it) – the Mayor was a man (who was my size/height) standing in an area kind of delegating and helping the people with whatever problems they might have. I got to him and started to talk to him but two more people came up immediately and started talking to him. They were younger (15ish or so) so I stepped aside and let them speak to him. One finished and a 5 year old boy ran up and cut in line – the Mayor gave him a few words and he ran away with a huge smile on his face. The other girl spoke to him and then came my turn. I remember feeling pressed for time as I can wake up and go back to my body at any moment, but it felt like the right thing to do to let the other speak to him first.

I asked the mayor for help with deciphering the message that was given to me and he quickly answered “do you see that little boy over there (pointing to the boy who ran off)? He is a very special boy. You should speak to him”. I went over to the boy and got down on one knee and asked him his name. He was so adorable and nice (and happy!) that I felt such happiness being around him. As we talked one of the older people chimed in as she was passing by doing her work that this boy had been a 50 year old back in 3D in his previous life. As I woke up I feel that I had misinterpreted that and he had reincarnated on Earth 50 times; the woman commented this in an amused way when I was thinking to myself how young he must be. So as we talked I eventually asked him if he knew what my next step was, as I very much wanted to meet my HS in this consciousness; I asked him if he could help/guide me. As five year olds do when they get excited he jumped up and screamed “Yes!” and took off with a huge smile on his face towards the area of the store where the banner was.

As I was following him I felt things lose lucidity and I knew that I’d be heading back to my physical body. I tried to fight it but to no avail. I woke up with my 1.5 year old crying for his morning bottle so didn’t have time to reflect and recall the experience in its entirety as I usually like to do.

* What I felt here has me questioning each of my experiences that originated from being lucid in my dreamlike state. I have had several experiences that originated from being awake in 3D, and several which have originated from lucid dreams. I believe that both experiences are genuine, but the experiences originating from lucid dreams are different. I do not think the experience like the above is simply part of the lucid dream – I have had lucid dreams before both with clarity and without and they are different from these experiences. I can’t really describe how, but if I had to try I would say lucid experiences are less structured and still a little “wild/chaotic” like my normal dreams are.
It’s possible that these experiences are happening in a higher dimension than 4D but it’s difficult for me to say with my limited experience.

[TraineeHuman]

The so-called “veil hiding the higher dimensions” might be better understood if we take a closer look at what parts of us are in which dimensions. In post #184 I already explained how that rattling, vibrating, electromagnetic energy field so familiar to astral travelers is the ego, or the personality.

You’ll notice, if you have astral traveling experience, that it must also be the same thing as your 4D body – the part that’s 4D.

I’ve come across spiritual teachers and schools of thought who seem to believe that the best way to treat the ego is to shoot it! Well, as long as we have 3D bodies we really need that 4D part.

That’s because – as parts of Chinese medicine describe so well in detail – it’s the thing that keeps our body living and our heart beating and our lungs breathing and so on. It’s ironic to me that some meditators believe they are practicing watching the breath in order to “get rid of the ego”, yet what they are initially surrendering to is the total control of their breathing by the ego – admittedly, operating in a balanced way and in combination with higher D parts of themselves.

One problem with the 4D body – the ego – is of course that it tries to manipulate and control everything in our lives. It does have a certain small amount of consciousness and awareness. Apart from that, it’s quite robotic. Its manipulation is quite sneaky. Before I looked at some of Lester Levenson’s videos I had already decided to mention here that the go operates in a roller-coaster fashion. I notice some of Levenson’s videos are coincidentally titled “Getting off the roller-coaster”. The ego tries to put us on a roller-coaster of emotions. It seemingly disappears, allowing us to feel good, and then at other times it switches on its cravings and attachments and grumpiness, rather arbitrarily. As a result we sense that the real self is not fully in control – of our own lives.

I believe some parts of Libico’s dream in post #237 are to do with going quite free of the 4D body, and therefore of the ego (as I understand it) altogether.

A second problem with the ego is the emotional wounds and imbalances it carries – until and if these are healed. One example we know rather well, and that has been discussed somewhat on Avalon, is the way the Illuminati use major abuse to bring up their children. Thus the child is taught that she or he is “nothing”, is powerless, worthless, worthy of zero respect.

The Illuminati presumably know that there is a healing process which comes from higher Ds. Specifically, it comes from 8D (a world where insights are the dominant “material”) or 7D (a world where points of view are the dominant wildlife). That process, the Illuminati know, will eventually lead the abused individual to become an abuser of others and to have a phony superiority complex. The individual will eventually seek to behave as if the opinions and views and rights of others are worthless. And that the only worthwhile things are whatever the individual decides or imposes.

In the natural order, the individual should mature out of such a tyrannical personality, but Svali’s testimony suggests the Illuminati go to great lengths to get individuals stuck at that point, and to complicate matters by adding the corruption that power usually brings.

Notice, however, that that tyrannical personality is a 4D thing. And it is created through using certain concepts (5D things).

Notice also that if we can learn to achieve “mastery” or true maturity over our ego, then we will already in effect be making our choices in life from 5D or higher. Even if we never get to clearly visit the 5D world through OB travel, we will then certainly know what it’s like to be coming from 5D or higher all the time.

[TraineeHuman]

Libico, any dream is itself a message from your HS regarding whatever you most don’t want to face in your current life at the time. You talk of wanting to meet your HS? Well, in recalling the details of a dream, you’re hearing your HS talking. The important step is to convert hearing into listening – which usually comes down to “dream interpretation”. And let me stress again that by far the most indeed the only primary principle is that the dream is showing you what most don’t want to face. There may be any number of reasons why you happen to not want to face that thing right now.

I really liked the first part of your dream. As my last post (# 239) may help to make clearer, during the dream you seemed to me to be seriously detaching from your ego – and therefore from the 4D world – altogether. I’ve spoken of the crucial importance of real detachment, and there you are, having the guts to explore what the implications would be of totally detaching from your ego. Having to face losing your beloved wife, if it ever came to that, on a psychological level rather than having it really happen to you.

Some spiritually inclined people used to take vows of poverty or sold everything they had and gave it to the poor, or else they practiced cruel austerities on themselves physically. And at the end of the day I suggest they weren’t achieving a fuller insight through such practices than what you are cutting to the chase and doing already.

For whatever reason, I suggest you basically don’t want to face that you’re achieving such detachment. Why, I don’t know. It’s your dream, your HS. All I can say is that it’s true 100% of the time that a dream shows you what your HS knows you’re not facing, not admitting to yourself.

The second part of your dream suggests that although you’re coming from quite a good “level” of awareness, you’re somehow not going about getting to “your HS” in a way that will work. I would assume that here by “your HS” you mean the parts of you that are 13D and higher? It sounds like your dream was saying that the way you were being when you were five was closer to what would help you succeed in that quest than the kind of effort you seem to be using at present.