Whistleblowers, Conspiracies and Proof

[bogeyman]

There has been many accounts of alleged conspiracies stated from so called "whistle blowers", these are from a variety of different agencies be it NSA, CIA FBI etc.

Yet for many they provide virtually and in some cases no evidence whatsoever. The limited evidence some may provide can be circumstantial in nature, which with a limited amount of effort any good intelligence officer or researcher could easily spin any set of events to make them seen to be circumstantial or have links.

If any body wishes to expose some illegal or immoral activities of any agency within the United States, why cannot they provide documented evidence they had access to or some proof except their statement. Even some evidence that they actually worked for the organization in question. Yet I have seen none, and none seems to be available on the internet.

[Kryztian]

How about two steel framed towers imploding into themselves and falling to the ground at free fall - evidence seen by billions of people?
How about this video by Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth? (Link below).

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=YW6mJOqRDI4

Yes, it would be nice to have more documented evidence of these wrong doings, however, the people the perpetrate these crimes write, store, file and release the documents.

[spiritguide]

It seems that you are looking in all the wrong places maybe.

[RMorgan]

Hey mate,

Yeah...It´s hard to know which whistle-blowers can be trusted indeed.

Some of them are disinformation agents, some are plain liars, some are simply delusional and some others, of course, are the real deal.

People from the alternative media make things even worse, using no criteria whatsoever to choose their interviewees. Anyone with a fantastic story to tell is instantly promoted to whistle blower, with zero background check.

This whole thing is a mess, my friend. I´ve spent a lot of time trying to figure out who´s telling the truth and who´s lying, but man, it´s close to impossible to achieve a definitive conclusion.

Some people mix truths and lies altogether in their stories, some people tell plain lies and others might be telling the pure truth...How to distinguish between them? I have no idea.

Credentials/evidences can be faked to give substance to a lie, just like credentials/evidences can be erased to discredit a possible truth...The "infowars" are extremely complicated.

Trust yourself, your family and friends, mate...This is all I could conclude by now.

Information? Information is just data. You don´t even need to think about trusting information or not. Just collect data in the most unbiased way as possible without incorporating it into your belief system.

Truths and lies, eventually, are important assets to your data-bank and are equally important in this incredibly complex dot connecting game.

Raf.

[Bill Ryan]

-------

I was told long ago (Feb 2006) in a day-long meeting with Hal Puthoff, who I now count as a friend, never to try to prove anything. It was one of the most interesting and enlightening conversations I've had, and Hal's care and insight might be one of the reasons I'm alive today.

Not proving anything -- not producing real documents, real photos, or a real alien -- allows plausible deniability. This is what the controllers care about.

There are some issues (the real existence of UFOs and ET visitation) which the controllers want to be released... but on a very slow drip-feed. Undeniable proof causes shocks to individuals and to the "system". Undeniable proof forces the controllers' hands, and this is not what they want.

The best strategy is to offer evidence (not proof) as a paradigm-changing tool. What follows after that is a game of chess. See the current interesting and important discussion on the Dulce Project 2013 thread in which a new Avalon member, Paul (TheDulceProject) is seeking funding and support for a high-profile team to go in to retrieve the box of Dulce documents, photos and videos buried somewhere in Arizona (location known) by ex-security guard Thomas Castello and Cherry Hinkle (Avalon member Mystery).

I and some others are advising great caution. To possess such unequivocal hard information in one's hands is a self-administered death warrant (or imprisonment warrant, at best).... unless one is skilled, smart and very lucky. Ask Julian Assange.

[bogeyman]

Hal Puthoff was apart of he aviary group, which were a disinformation group. It seems statements without proof, would be subject to spreading disinformation, misinformation and a almost perfect guise for manipulation of individuals or groups to think or search along set lines, which could be away from the real truth. I know for sure Col Alexander was lying in one of his interviews, and he also was a member of this group. These people are experts at penetration and manipulation of certain "interest" groups for a certain agenda, which isn't it the public's interest. As Dr Walker once said about UFO secrecy, your fighting the "windmills" and the reason for the UFO secrecy is still "valid" today as it was in the beginning of the modern UFO phenomena. This is why I have no connection to any UFO groups or individuals in that field.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by bogeyman (here)
Hal Puthoff was apart of he aviary group

Needs more clarification here, which I don't have time for (definitely later: forgive me). Beware of internet gossip. This is exactly what we're talking about here.

You may be falling into your own trap... there's no 'proof' that all the 'Aviary' were disinformers. I know quite a lot about it, and spent time with Hal personally, and others (including Rick Doty, Christopher Green, Gordon Novel, etc). Beware of dismissing or misunderstanding what I'm trying to describe... based on no evidence.

We may be in a vicious circle -- do you see? I'm trying to add a little clarity here. Tied up now (as I'm writing this), but will be back later. This is an important topic, full of complexities and subtleties, and I sincerely thank you for bringing it up.

[Peace of Mind]

I’m finding it very hard to fathom the perennial fact that there are more crooks/deceivers/ negative people in power than there are benevolent/ supportive/brave/responsible people in the world. I recognize that some harbor fear and are reluctant to do what they know is necessary, but at the same time these people also help keep the masses subdue due to their unwilling attitudes and their inability to muster up the strength and courage to assist where there is a need.

If you/I/we can spread unconfirmed fairy tales, doom and gloom, and update other stagnated individuals with false predictions...yet don’t feel a need to attack/ remedy/or discuss that problem into a solution….than I don’t know who is more worse for humanity….Could it be the clever deceivers, or the confused pretenders blatantly promoting conflict and depressing news (without resolution).

All this alien talk has been going on for years and years and years…. and we are no closer to knowing anything significant now than we were years ago, this subject has always created one thing, and one thing only…. and that’s a waste of time (which can easily be proven). I for the life of me have yet to see how any alien news/or supposed finds will solve the actual problems we face now-yesterday-and tomorrow. I’m really starting to wonder just how serious we really are….

I’m feeling the need to stop my crusade for a righteous and fair world because the (human) inhabitants don’t seem to know where their priorities are. They say one thing but their actions say something else. It’s no longer a mystery to me why we are in the position we’re currently in. Knowing this, I somtimes feel discourage in my own ambitions to help with the healing of the world and humanity. But when ever I feel this way the innocent look on a childs face always reminds me just how important these times really are.

I dream of the day when we all say enough is enough and finally start committing ourselves to improve society/ a real cause without the fear tactics, trickery, and drama. That day (imho) is the day we awaken. Until then there will be suffering, especially for those that are in the know...as the sleepers countinue to count the sheep, oblivious to the real world and the real problems. When you are granted the opportunity to assist others you assist yourself, neglecting that chance will only place a greater hindrance on you, and unfortunately that effect spreads in many ways to other people because everything/one is connected. I'am you and you am I. This post (like my others) is just another attempt of me reaching out to myself...simply because I love myself and I'm tired of seeing me/us not living up to our potential.

Peace

[Freed Fox]

I appreciate the very real dangers associated with exposing the truth, or more specifically those truths which have been painstakingly hidden from most of us. Lord knows that too many lives have been lost already because of this very fact.

I am not in any sensitive position in the government or military, nor do I have any substantial personal contacts 'on the inside'. Those facts alone might make me a 'non-issue' to the powers that be, but regardless I would like to make a sincere vow in this regard, to all of you.

If, for whatever reason, I ever find myself possessing evidence or outright proof of anything that has been hidden, I will come forward with it.
Some would say that simply by posting this resolution, I've shot myself in the foot. Let them red flag me.

The reason for this is not derived from some death wish or contrived desire to be a hero. It is a recognition that the most powerful and influential forces only remain as such as long as they have boots on the ground. They can not yet employ armies of mindless automatons and therefore must rely upon our fellow human beings, at some or even many levels, to enforce their will. These are human beings who must eventually wake up.

I know this all has a dangerously idealistic slant, but I am currently in my twenties and frankly, if this paradigm is ever going to have a major shift, my generation will have to be a big part of that. If we cannot maintain courage and optimism in the face of a dark reality, there is little hope we have to find our place as part of the solution, let alone convince ourselves that there is any point in living.

[/naive rant]

[bogeyman]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by bogeyman (here)
Hal Puthoff was apart of he aviary group

Needs more clarification here, which I don't have time for (definitely later: forgive me). Beware of internet gossip. This is exactly what we're talking about here.

You may be falling into your own trap... there's no 'proof' that all the 'Aviary' were disinformers. I know quite a lot about it, and spent time with Hal personally, and others (including Rick Doty, Christopher Green, Gordon Novel, etc). Beware of dismissing or misunderstanding what I'm trying to describe... based on no evidence.

We may be in a vicious circle -- do you see? I'm trying to add a little clarity here. Tied up now (as I'm writing this), but will be back later. This is an important topic, full of complexities and subtleties, and I sincerely thank you for bringing it up.

I was there when certain individual(s) admitted the existence of the group (phone call), and there purpose and other information....I say no more, people. can believe what they wish, the game will continue regardless.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by bogeyman (here)

I was there when certain individual(s) admitted the existence of the group (phone call), and there purpose and other information....

Can you prove it?

(Maybe best if you can't! If you'd recorded the call and posted it here, you might seriously p*** someone off. Might not be smart.)

The 'Aviary' was a loose collection of individuals, and the name was a half-joke. Some 'members' were hard players, and definitely no-one I would ever trust. Others were different. It's like putting all of the Camelot (or Disclosure Project) witnesses -- or Alex Jones' interviewees -- together in one room, and giving them a name, and ascribing to them an agenda. Not nearly so simple.

[Peace of Mind]

Posted by Freed Fox (here)
I appreciate the very real dangers associated with exposing the truth, or more specifically those truths which have been painstakingly hidden from most of us. Lord knows that too many lives have been lost already because of this very fact.

I am not in any sensitive position in the government or military, nor do I have any substantial personal contacts 'on the inside'. Those facts alone might make me a 'non-issue' to the powers that be, but regardless I would like to make a sincere vow in this regard, to all of you.

If, for whatever reason, I ever find myself possessing evidence or outright proof of anything that has been hidden, I will come forward with it.
Some would say that simply by posting this resolution, I've shot myself in the foot. Let them red flag me.

The reason for this is not derived from some death wish or contrived desire to be a hero. It is a recognition that the most powerful and influential forces only remain as such as long as they have boots on the ground. They can not yet employ armies of mindless automatons and therefore must rely upon our fellow human beings, at some or even many levels, to enforce their will. These are human beings who must eventually wake up.

I know this all has a dangerously idealistic slant, but I am currently in my twenties and frankly, if this paradigm is ever going to have a major shift, my generation will have to be a big part of that. If we cannot maintain courage and optimism in the face of a dark reality, there is little hope we have to find our place as part of the solution, let alone convince ourselves that there is any point in living.

[/naive rant]

Thanks
I understand and appreciate this, truly. However, in my opinion and experiences it makes no sense to put out information if you aren’t willing to disclose it fully. I mean, what’s the point behind that? What can I or anyone else do with inconsistent data? All that will ever do is cause fear and drama while creating an unhealthy mind set. If you really care, you wouldn’t cause a toxic environment with unconfirmed material, you would place yourself in a position to uplift, enlighten, organize and assemble those that find interest in what you’re offering, to the point that the audience will know exactly what they are dealing with, enabling them to do their part. You don’t feed them tidbits here and there for years and years and expect something to get done… when this same news is deemed “very important”. To do so (imo), is seeking attention, to create a following, to create a mind set by slowly embedding these ideas into the minds of the seeker, inception.

What’s so hard with waiting until you have all the evidence and courage you need to get your point across? Why leak something that has absolutely nothing to grasp on to, no substance, no references, nothing? What do they hope to accomplish in this manner? They should know very well by now that ridicule is to be expected, skepticism is to be expected, denial/ conflict/ debates (all time wasters) can only come of this. Any WB’s that doesn’t expect this is not a reliable source, as the true WB will be prepared for it….ready to shoot down any form of doubt with their undeniable proof. Their fears of death are restrained by the fear of not doing what they purposely claim to do. They are fearless heroes not celebrities, they know death is inevitable and that fate can’t be cheated, so there is little worry or concern because they know there’s something that is much greater than the self in jeopardy. They trust in their material and that a higher power is there to assist them, they know that their unique opportunity is for the world, not an individual endeavor. Their legacy is not a issue by any means, because they know it will materialize by simply doing what they were put in the position to do. They don’t seek funding, book and/or movie deals for half released material; they seek patience and help with the problem at hand. They realise the importance of the matter from various perspectives and will treat it ( along with the followers and sceptics) with respect by being creative with their disclosure, they will not have you chasing your tale, or a carrot. Why do such a thing to those you claim to care about?

You should never be afraid of who you are and what you can do/or have to do. Cowards never leave this world on a happy note, never. What’s the point of living if you can’t live life fully? We are cheating ourselves daily by not being who we are, all this pretending we become accustomed to will deliver us into miserable times, where else do you expect to go by doing nothing to get you there? That said, its way past the time to put in the honest efforts. Gratification will soon follow to pay your way forward, accept the challenge; life is all about the experience, time to start experiencing the wonders in life is what I say. Just imagine going outside your house to see everyone displaying respect, goodwill, and a smile. Wow, what a beautiful sight. And this can easily happen just with three simple things love, commitment and planning. As long as we are distracted from those three… we will continue to have what we have now, chaos. We all can do better, I know I can and I make it my business to do just that every time I’m blessed to wake up another day on this beautiful planet.

Peace

[steveofengland]

Another thing to consider here is how evil this game of chess can get, for example, let's say MrX comes along with some mumbo jumbo theory, a lot of people buy into it.
TPTB take a look at MrX and see the popularity of said theory.

Now, MrX and tptb both know there is no substance to the theory. And They like it as its taking the heat off of what's really cooking.
So to really add substance to this excellent diversion MrX is dispensed with in a sensational but explanatory fashion that just serves to confirm that MrX was indeed right on the money, when in fact your eyess have been further decieved once again.

[Hervé]

Posted by bogeyman (here)
[...]

If any body wishes to expose some illegal or immoral activities of any agency within the United States, why cannot they provide documented evidence they had access to or some proof except their statement. Even some evidence that they actually worked for the organization in question. Yet I have seen none, and none seems to be available on the internet.

From http://avalonlibrary.net/Sue_Arrigo/:

Unreported Major Corruption and Treason at the Highest Levels of US Government – By Sue Arrigo, MD, former Special Operations Advisor to Directors of CIA

Cases 1-17: Documented Evidence of Massive Government Fraud, Short Shipping of Military Supplies to Iraq by Contractors, Contractor-Thieves Inside the CIA, Criminal Negligence in Protecting US Troops and National Security and More - Updated

LC Editor’s Comments on this Report: On Friday May 2008 Ms. Arrigo transmitted the file containing Cases 1-17 [to] Chairman Waxman’s committee on Oversight and Government Reform, at http://oversight.house.gov/contact/ . Here is the link to the first information I received from Bob Chapman (The International Forecaster) about Ms. Arrigo’s work. It was sent to me unedited in text form and contains documentation on six of the cases discussed [in] Case 1-17 (full) document. The text version also provides data concerning Ms. Arrigo’s background and how Bob learned about her work. I received the file covering Case 18 today (June 7) from Ms. Arrigo today and uploaded it to our server site for download by readers.


Case 18:The “Cook the Intelligence” Committee’s Payments to Bush, Sr. and
the Rockefellers Cousins (Added June 7)

Case 19: An Aside on the Robert Kennedy Assassination

LC Editor’s Comments – We received this article as an email attachment from SueAnn Friday evening. To read her articles covering Cases 1-18, please click on the Previous Cases link to go to that directory. That directory also explains how we first heard about SueAnn, which was through Bob Chapman, the International Forecaster, and ended up publishing the Cases 1-17 on May 29. SueAnn had emailed the article containing these cases to House Chairman Waxman’s Committee on Oversight and Government Reform at http://oversight.house.gov/contact / on May 16. Steve Lendman published an article on SueAnn’s work, including in it Cases 1-4,on June 11 providing important background on SueAnn and her research. It is our understanding that someone in Mr. Waxman’s office was to download Cases 1-18 through the LC server site two weeks ago but we have no confirmation that this ever occurred.

***************************************************************

End results?

More harrassments and tortures for her. The only reason she might still be alive is that she was/is the best RV of her generation and directly slave-chained to David Rockefeller whom she might still be useful to.

Nothing ever happened to the culprits who are now dying of old age and being slipped into younger clone bodies to "continue the work."

[bogeyman]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by bogeyman (here)

I was there when certain individual(s) admitted the existence of the group (phone call), and there purpose and other information....

Can you prove it?



(Maybe best if you can't! If you'd recorded the call and posted it here, you might seriously p*** someone off. Might not be smart.)

Yes I can prove it, I can also say, that the individual who did the research was harassed by the security services, his phone was tapped, his mail interfered with and some trump up charges were made etc., so it seems to me, that some whistle blowers may not be all that they pretend to be. And frankly bill this type of harassment isn't going to happen to me. Aviary is connected to the DOD, the UFO subject is monitor intensively, and there are a few in the mix who are intelligence people.

[T Smith]

Posted by RMorgan (here)
Hey mate,

Yeah...It´s hard to know which whistle-blowers can be trusted indeed.

Some of them are disinformation agents, some are plain liars, some are simply delusional and some others, of course, are the real deal.

People from the alternative media make things even worse, using no criteria whatsoever to choose their interviewees. Anyone with a fantastic story to tell is instantly promoted to whistle blower, with zero background check.

This whole thing is a mess, my friend. I´ve spent a lot of time trying to figure out who´s telling the truth and who´s lying, but man, it´s close to impossible to achieve a definitive conclusion.


Raf.

Two words come to mind: critical discernment.

[Huma]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
-------

I was told long ago (Feb 2006) in a day-long meeting with Hal Puthoff, who I now count as a friend, never to try to prove anything. It was one of the most interesting and enlightening conversations I've had, and Hal's care and insight might be one of the reasons I'm alive today.

Not proving anything -- not producing real documents, real photos, or a real alien -- allows plausible deniability. This is what the controllers care about.

There are some issues (the real existence of UFOs and ET visitation) which the controllers want to be released... but on a very slow drip-feed. Undeniable proof causes shocks to individuals and to the "system". Undeniable proof forces the controllers' hands, and this is not what they want.

The best strategy is to offer evidence (not proof) as a paradigm-changing tool. What follows after that is a game of chess. See the current interesting and important discussion on the Dulce Project 2013 thread in which a new Avalon member, Paul (TheDulceProject) is seeking funding and support for a high-profile team to go in to retrieve the box of Dulce documents, photos and videos buried somewhere in Arizona (location known) by ex-security guard Thomas Castello and Cherry Hinkle (Avalon member Mystery).

I and some others are advising great caution. To possess such unequivocal hard information in one's hands is a self-administered death warrant (or imprisonment warrant, at best).... unless one is skilled, smart and very lucky. Ask Julian Assange.

I have to comment on this. I have had numerous lengthy conversations with Clifford Stone, talking about a lot of details and specific content he has never shared publicly. While I do not have his permission to share all the details publicly for a variety of practical reasons, I did ask him if he had or has smoking gun quality pictures of ET/Entities or UFO craft etc. I asked him these rather point blank questions because I had never seen anyone ask him this on tape or on audio, including Bill or Kerry, and I wanted to know. He said that he most def. did have them at one time in his possession but they were stolen from him right out of his home. He does however, have documentation which is dangerous to have I believe.

I even asked him why doesn't he share this with credible researchers, and he said "who would I send it to?" His essential point is that not only would these kind of documents not make it to there destination, but sharing the details of that information to others was enough to get those receiving the info in trouble, possibly mortally in trouble, let alone if these folks actually came to poses this hard evidence. He has made the point to me over and over again, that most of his troubles come not from him telling his rather fantastical sounding life story and experiences, but from actually trying to prove it and other related events/subjects. He has resisted sharing certain specifics with me because he simply does not want me or anyone else to come to any harm.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by bogeyman (here)
and there are a few in the mix who are intelligence people.

Yes, that's 100% true.

If there's anything you'd like to share with me by PM (not readable by anyone else), and in 100% confidence, I would very much appreciate it.

[bogeyman]

In time I may do this it is a matter of trust, that must be earned.

[Dennis Leahy]

Posted by bogeyman (here)
There has been many accounts of alleged conspiracies stated from so called "whistle blowers", these are from a variety of different agencies be it NSA, CIA FBI etc.

Yet for many they provide virtually and in some cases no evidence whatsoever. The limited evidence some may provide can be circumstantial in nature, which with a limited amount of effort any good intelligence officer or researcher could easily spin any set of events to make them seen to be circumstantial or have links.

If any body wishes to expose some illegal or immoral activities of any agency within the United States, why cannot they provide documented evidence they had access to or some proof except their statement. Even some evidence that they actually worked for the organization in question. Yet I have seen none, and none seems to be available on the internet.

I believe your premise is naive, and that you are expecting perpetrators to have videotaped or written down and signed their conspiracies.

My first eye-opening conspiracy (still maintained after almost 50 years!) is the murder of JFK and its coverup. If you do not consider that a real conspiracy, and do not realize that an enormous amount of evidence has been presented proving the "official conspiracy theory" to be a deliberate fabrication, then I don't know what ever would. Confessions of the conspirators are not forthcoming.

Ditto to 9/11: Mountains of evidence proving a conspiracy, no confessions or "smoking gun documents" showing names and addresses of co-conspirators.

Rockefeller and Carnegie were stupid enough to keep minutes of their meetings, as they conspired to take over the control of information (even before the "information age") by controlling history and the entire educational system. This (and more) has been revealed by Norman Dodd, head researcher for the Reece Committee who was allowed to look at the meeting minutes.

And more insidiously, corporate conspiracy is a daily affair, and would require an amazing level of naiveté to believe that it does not transpire. One example I can offer is the "Light Bulb Conspiracy", which was documented in a documentary ("Pyramids of Waste" also titled "The Lightbulb Conspiracy"), mainly about planned obsolescence.

If you keep waiting for Hollywood movie-style, unassailable written proof/photographs/videos for conspiracies, rushed to the benevolent and integrity-filled mass media outlet that will present the material to the world, you may be waiting a while. I suspect the most damning evidence in conspiracies does not exist (that is, it was spoken quietly and affirmed with a nod of the head by others - no written, audio, or video proof exists - and the perpetrators/co-conspirators will never confess.)

Dennis