Solipsism, the biggest spiritual Con.

[Zelig]

This thread makes me dizzy and sad.

[RMorgan]

Well, the actual idea of solipism is quite complex and has many facets.

Metaphysically, I believe solipism gets quite interesting when it states that you can only be sure of what´s going on in your own mind, and it´s impossible to interpret anything else external accurately, because you are a single observer and all conclusions you make are assumption based analogies, inevitably attached your point of view, which is singular.

Following the same reasoning, you could say that everything else exists just if you exist, because the very concept of existence only exists inside the mind of the observer of the existential phenomena, not outside of it.

For instance, if we deny the idea of possibilities of continuation of consciousness after physical death, we could say that the whole universe ceases to exist at the moment the individual, which is the observer of the existential phenomena, dies.

So, existence becomes meaningless if there´s no one there to observe; In this case, this no one is you. Things may even continue to exist, but they become meaningless if you, who are the only protagonist of you own life experience, aren´t there to give them meaning.

Under a broader perspective, considering solipsism, you could say that when you die, the whole universe dies with you, because your experience as an observer is as unique as you are as an individual, and will no longer exist after you´re gone. No one experiences the phenomena of life identically.

Basically, if I die, all you guys die with me, because you will no longer exist from my perspective, which is the only perspective I could ever fully experience, and the only one I can be sure that ever existed.

This is a very interesting concept; This discussion is pointless because the concept itself is both impossible to confirm or refute, ultimately.

As a side note, solipism can´t be classified as a spiritual philosophy, because it only is applicable if you consider that you´re no longer able to observe existence after you physically die. It doesn´t take spiritual beliefs in consideration because it is epistemological in nature, encompassing just knowledge, not beliefs.

Solipism and spirituality are not compatible concepts; Every time someone tries to mix them in the same bag, it creates huge philosophical and practical contradictions.

Raf.

[Craig]

Hmm, it could be very real, I always thought that I was out to get me in strange and bizarre ways, hats off to me I am bloody amazing. But if it is not real then my paranoia is getting the better of me.

It is classified as paranoia if they are really out to get you?

I look forward to reading more, not understanding, but reading more.

EDIT: After reading Raf's post, A man once told me about the old saying to understand another person, walk a mile in their shoes, well besides being a mile further down the road in another pair of shoes, you still only see through your eyes what you think it is like through their eyes, your inbuilt filtering will still apply.

So everything will always be filtered? What if we could free the bonds of the body would we then be exposed to everything unfiltered and could we cope? Well this thought has just popped my mind

[Kiforall]

Great to see you posting again!

The main ideas of solipsism.
Arguments of Gorgias of Leontini who is considered to be the father of solipsism.

1)Nothing exists
2)Even if something exists, nothing can be known about it
3)Even if something can be known about it, knowledge about it can't be communicated to others
4)Even if it can be communicated, it cannot be understood

The above is taken from:

http://mindandphilosophy.blogspot.co...your-mind.html

[bennycog]

You feel you exist because your mind process's the information around you. The mind is still not strong enough to capture the true existence of things because it is running on 4 of 8 cylinders
Your senses are heightened from your ability to program your mind to open up more, ( meditation ) and this creates more of a reality for you..
You exist to others because your actions and choices project interuptions in their existence.. Making you seen heard felt.. You would feel nothing without the mind processing your surroundings.. There you would live in a kind of solitude unless you had the ability to project yourself on other planes of existence
Is that close?

[Craig]

Isn't this a great post, it has awaken something i have thought to be long dormant within me, a childish questioning curiosity,

I followed Kiforall's link above and read the blog.

1) Nothing exists

what is nothing? is it the lack of something? is it a yin/yang relationship with something? is that piece of nothing over there the same as that piece of nothing over here? are there different classifications of nothing? is it like a null in SQL? If nature abhors a vacuum it must really hate nothing?

2) Even if something exists, nothing can be known about it

does this negate number 1? are we like Futurama where we are just a brain\entity in a jar somewhere living what can be classified as the ultimate immersive reality game? The mere fact we aren't all billionaires living on our own private island means just how powerful this illusion is?

3) Even if something can be known about it, knowledge about it can't be communicated to others

Am I typing this to myself? I am thinking about multiverses here, could another universe be another invention of someone else who doesn't know about this or me? can we go from nothing exists to something(s) and then communicating between them, i think this is a major leap from number 1

4) Even if it can be communicated, it cannot be understood

another exponential leap required here, we have gone from nothing to something, to something(s) and communication to understanding (doesn't the meaning of communication imply being understood?)

so the 4 Arguments of Gorgias of Leontini in 4 lines have expressed a multitude of possibilities, what if any could you think would be point 5?

to borrow the thinkings of the great great man Douglas Adams,

5) Even if something could be understood it then changes into something even more incomprehensible

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by corson (here)
from what i have read, solipsism refers to believing that only your own mind is real and that anything outside of your own mind is not real, or may not be true.

That's correct. It sounds like a philosophical argument, but the concept is actually totally meaningless. Here's why:

There are two possibilities. Either solipsism is correctly founded, or it's not.

1. If it is, you (reading this) are the only being in the universe, and you're imagining/creating everything (including these words). Therefore there's nothing to discuss, because you're only talking to yourself.
2. If it isn't... there's nothing to discuss either.

Hallo Bill

Yes you are right Bill, but if it isn't, then our understanding of reality is wrong, and has been hidden (Occulted) for thousand of years from outsiders.

Regards as ever Bill

roman

Who ever said we understand reality? I thought that was one of the biggest mysteries of the Universe? I guess it does indicate that opportunity for effect of solipsism is far greater in those with a rigid belief that they completely understand the nature of reality .... interesting ... it seems like a planted catch22 to try to catch certain individuals and demonize them for their beliefs ... but we ourselves as superiors all have "the right belief" so its okay .... we are not like "them" and are safe ... "whew!"

ADDITION .. added more after the "thanks" so "unthanks" if my new addition no longer works for you ... I stand behind it ...

[bruno dante]

If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to witness it....

[Rich]

Roman, first post and already causing trouble?!
Surprised to see you, thought you got banned.
Glad you are back.... and another interesting thread.

Posted by ulli (here)
I was married to a solipsist for 11 years.
The marriage ended because in his eyes I never really existed,
and he didn't like to be challenged about that.

If that theory comes from ego it says the thoughts about other bodies
are 'just my thoughts' (unreal) but the thoughts about ones own
body are not even acknowledged as thoughts (this is arrogance/ignorance).

[thunder24]

Posted by bruno dante (here)
If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to witness it....

...it makes a noise because it makes an indentation in the ground where it lays, thus a vibration occured, thus noise was made...???

[Shadowman]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by corson (here)
from what i have read, solipsism refers to believing that only your own mind is real and that anything outside of your own mind is not real, or may not be true.

That's correct. It sounds like a philosophical argument, but the concept is actually totally meaningless. Here's why:

There are two possibilities. Either solipsism is correctly founded, or it's not.

1. If it is, you (reading this) are the only being in the universe, and you're imagining/creating everything (including these words). Therefore there's nothing to discuss, because you're only talking to yourself.
2. If it isn't... there's nothing to discuss either.

Hi Bill,

sol•ip•sism
[sol-ip-siz-uh m] noun

1. Philosophy . The theory that only the self exists, or can be proved to exist.

2. Extreme preoccupation with and indulgence of one's feelings, desires, etc.; egoistic self-absorption.

Origin: 1880–85; sol(i)-1 + Latin ips ( e ) self + -ism


The difficulty arises from the confusion between the absolute Self ie God and the relative self ie the ego.

The ego or thinking self is a relative perspective and therefore limited. It is a consequence of the narrowing or distortion, or obstruction, or obfuscation, of absolute awareness reflected in the mind as the individual I.

It is like a shadow, which is created by the obstruction of light. It is both temporary and dependent. Or if you prefer it is like a rainbow which is apparent only from certain perspectives due to the refraction of light. In these two metaphors God is the ever present Sun of total undivided “light” or awareness which when obstructed or diffracted gives rise to the little self or ego.

So, extreme preoccupation with feelings, desires, thoughts etc is preoccupation with the temporary manifestations produced by the equally illusory ego or self. This strengthens the illusion of the existence of the ego as a matrix of memories, relative experiences, belief’s, etc ( ie His story = history)

However, extreme preoccupation with the absolute Self, the pure “light” of awareness in which all appears, including all shadows and rainbows, eventually causes the illusions to be realized as just that, temporary phenomena; including the grandest of illusions, the ego. This realization is known by many names...

If thine eye is single/simple, thy whole body will be full of light. - Jesus

So while the Self/God/All That Is/Totality, IS all that exists, and does so eternally, the self or ego certainly does not. The unreal never lived, the real never dies.

The paradox is that while there is nothing to discuss from the absolute perspective, and the absolute has never uttered a single word, as there is no one else, such activity appears to occur in the realm of dreams ie duality.

If anyone should say that the Tathagata comes or goes or sits or reclines, he does not understand my meaning. - Buddha

The Self cannot be understood by the mind. The mind is both a tool for understanding duality and it's creator. The Self is realized, as in gnosis, and is experienced in silence/stillness (of the mind),

"Gnosis is used throughout Greek philosophy as a technical term for experience knowledge (see gnosiology) in contrast to theoretical knowledge or epistemology.

The fathers of early Christianity used the word "knowledge" (gnosis) in the New Testament to mean spiritual knowledge or specific knowledge of the divine.

Among the gnostics, gnosis was first and foremost a matter of Self-knowledge, which was considered the path leading to the goal of enlightenment as the hidden knowledge of the various pre-Judeo-Christian pagan Mystery-Religions."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosis

Be still and know that I am God. - Psalm 46:10

The more you talk about it, the more you think about it, the further you are from it - Seng-Ts'an

Though one should conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, he who conquers his own self (mind/ego), is the greatest of all conquerers. It is man’s own mind, not his enemy or foe, that lures him to evil ways. - Buddha

To seek Mind (here the buddhist term Mind with a capital M is synonymous with the Self) with the (discriminating) mind (ie the intellect/ego) is the greatest of all mistakes. - Seng-Ts'an



With Love
tim

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by thunder24 (here)

Posted by bruno dante (here)
If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to witness it....

...it makes a noise because it makes an indentation in the ground where it lays, thus a vibration occured, thus noise was made...???

Is sound not the witnessing of the vibration? Or is it the vibration itself? If so ... don't we already have word for vibration and sound is distinct? Then what is the meaning of sound?

[Flash]

Posted by ulli (here)
I was married to a solipsist for 11 years.
The marriage ended because in his eyes I never really existed,
and he didn't like to be challenged about that.

Make it two . Would solipsist be link to narcissisim by any chance?

[Jake]

Posted by bruno dante (here)
If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to witness it....

The sphere of consciousness that created the tree, and the falling of the tree will always know (having created and experienced it all) that the tree fell. Besides,, do you discount the consciousness of the tree?? I posit that what was created in the beginning was CREATION!! Sonopslosilism ,,, would only exist in an isolated mind, and an isolated mind is re-enforced by being disconnected from themselves, and the rest of the universe. Any theory that means to show a disconnect between self and the rest of the universe,, is false. (or, will eventually be shown to be false.) Somonsolpsolism (??) would be a choice, one of many in a vast field of choises!!!

I guess I will sit here and wait for me to reply. I'd better hurry, cuz I have to go find myself. I hope I return before I get back!! I forgot to tell myself something...

[bearcow]

this is what my cat believes in

[norman]

I don't know where you intend to go with this Roman, but......

when I started reading the Wikipedia entry for this word, the very first notion that popped up in my mind was that there is a relationship between the 'ego' and what passes for logical purity.

Bill's contribution to this thread threw that notion into confusion for me but as it was something I instantly connected in my head, I'll stick with it and see what you intend to say about it.

[Flash]

My simple philosophy: when i am in the eternal I, the question does not arise since I am it all as well as the individual. When i am in the individual conciousness alone, then the question, based in fact on dualism experienced (one vs many), may arise. If my decision is then to be solipsist, it will lead to narcisism and service to self.

[Rich]

Posted by bruno dante (here)
If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to witness it....

So you say the tree is there without a witness, but it cannot make a sound without a witness?

Solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist.

And what is it that is supposed to own this mind?

[Moz]

This tread feels like when I talk to my Father. I will try to explain:

He is a very smart man, way smarter than me.
Although when I talk to him (for hours on occasions) we never seem to get anywhere...
...but its a high level conversation (lots of knowledge, names, books, authors etc) but I always walk away feeling like he never gets the point...

This is how I'm feeling reading this...

Maybe I'm just a low lever user.
Chao

[Mark]

Hi Roman, just dropping by to welcome you back. A mind-boggling question and topic, on a par with questioning the existence of God or whether the world is an illusion or not. The type of questions that lead round and round and upside down in a never-ending circle. So, on this topic I'll defer to tne Ancient Hermetists, who stated succinctly: "On this topic, the lips of Hermes are closed."

But I'll be watching as I'm curious to see where you're headed with this. Bless.