The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

[Finefeather]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
To get out of the prison you are in, you need to enhance and become more aware of ways to know that you are in a prison. To do that, you need to become aware of different ways you have of knowing -- ways quite different from the education system taught you.

Yes...and the biggest thing to realise is that the 'prison' we think we are in is a self created one. But lets try to put this in a more acceptable way...because we hate to see ourselves as been the creator of our own suffering.

All forms of suffering, hardship and misunderstanding are merely our lack of knowledge of the facts of existence. We try to study or learn the truths of higher consciousness but fail to first master the levels which are presently causing our despair. There is an esoteric axiom which states that we cannot know the higher until we have mastered the current state...because the higher state always requires the current one to be known first, It is like school...if we cannot count how are we going to fair at calculus?

We become aware of our 'spiritual' progress when we start to seek answers to the meaning of life. First we know how little we know...and as soon as we know a little...we become blind to how much we do not know. We want to run ahead because we need that answer...today...but to know the truth in it's entirety we need to experience the whole...else we will forever be venturing off into the wrong direction...and end up back in the same prison we created in the first place...which was our ignorance.

Ignorance is a hard word to face and we become emotionally involved when we are confronted with been ignorant....But there are few who are not ignorant and ignorance is a relative term which simply means that we have not yet experienced the lesson which is the one which will give us the key to the door of the prison we find ourselves in at any point in our evolution and growth towards the discovery of our true Self...

Take care and with love
Ray

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by Finefeather (here)

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
To get out of the prison you are in, you need to enhance and become more aware of ways to know that you are in a prison. To do that, you need to become aware of different ways you have of knowing -- ways quite different from the education system taught you.

Yes...and the biggest thing to realise is that the 'prison' we think we are in is a self created one. But lets try to put this in a more acceptable way...because we hate to see ourselves as been the creator of our own suffering.

All forms of suffering, hardship and misunderstanding are merely our lack of knowledge of the facts of existence. We try to study or learn the truths of higher consciousness but fail to first master the levels which are presently causing our despair. There is an esoteric axiom which states that we cannot know the higher until we have mastered the current state...because the higher state always requires the current one to be known first, It is like school...if we cannot count how are we going to fair at calculus?

That’s almost exactly what I was going to say at the beginning of my next post, Ray.

Serendipitously, in keeping with your new signature, the next thing I was going to mention after that was that to get out of that self-created prison one thing everyone needs to do is throw out many of the beliefs they may have about “subjectivity”. At least throw them out for now. (By the way, the scientific method demands that in science any theory has to be falsifiable. But a theory can only ever be falsifiable if it’s false. Science uses those theories which haven’t been falsified as yet – but freely admits they must all be false. So much for “scientific objectivity”!)

In this post I’d like to begin, or continue, an exploration with you all of the different ways of knowing you have but mostly don’t use. As Ray emphasizes, though, you do need to experience these things. There’s no shortcut as far as that’s concerned. That’s why I’m providing you with simple exercises.

As you’re exploring the “at one with” exercise, you’ll inevitably notice that your “environment” starts looking a little different. It’s not that it’s changed. Rather, what you’ll be seeing is a reflection “out there” of the ways of knowing you’ll be using “in here”. Again, as Ray says in the previous post, in a slightly different way.

And if you can simply learn to consciously use different ways of knowing, you’ll discover that “the unique you” is much more huge than your previous ways of knowing had suggested. Indeed, to jump a long way ahead, you’ll eventually discover that a physical body, or any kind of body, is illusory, and is an unnecessary prison. I’ve thrown that last sentence in because I guess it has to do with the essence of why people are interested in OBEs in the first place.

I’ve looked again at teradactyl’s post #972, and it does sound like she’s not only experienced some success at going briefly “at one” with things. Not only that, but it’s possible she managed to jump straight away to the next step. I had expected I would need to ask people to make whatever they “see” or experience while being at one clearer, and then clearer still. Maybe teradactyl did reach significant clarity – possibly as beginner’s luck? Because the remarkable thing is, once you’re seeing very, very clearly, you must also be quite detached. That’s at the very same time as you’re being – well, immersed!
Anyway, here’s part of what teradactyl said:

the other day i went to the mall with my daughter and i was just 'present' and observing. no tantrums, and i felt as though i was able to side step any wary characters and areas without much of a second thought

That does indeed sound like detachment to me.

“Normally”, we consider getting fully immersed and involved with something or someone as a loss of any broader perspective. Indeed, the “normal” individual soon becomes attached to it or them. We “get lost” in such absorption, or even “lose our selves” or “lose our mind / good sense”.

Similarly, “normally” people think of a “detached” person as someone who is aloof for some reason, and not playing the game, not “with it”.

That’s not the detachment I’m talking about, and have done in this thread. The type of detachment I mean is exemplified by C S Lewis’s saying – which echoes what the Zen Buddhists say – that “true love detaches one greatly”.

I hope this makes it clear why I believe my exercise of being “at one” can enable you to eventually reach the most extraordinary depths of awareness and knowing. I got the exercise just by carefully and accurately observing what I do myself. That doesn’t mean it’s not a truly great exercise, I'd like to believe.

[soleil]

thanks for the mention TH. that day in particular i put a garnet (just cuz its my birth stone) in my pocket with the intention for it to help me be balanced and centered and to ward off negativity. i do not mean this was hocus pocus, it was only my intention for how i wanted to experience my day. i wanted a challenge to my self meditation practice (being at one), and the mall was the place. it was a nice practice for me.

[edit]
the new key for me is, not holding tight to any outcome. and my new practice is going out in life, and experiencing everything as it is for the first time (practices i am doing/coming up with have been offered by TH and also parts from the pilot book).
and to be honest, i was telling my fiance about turning off autopilot and doing everything for the first time, this morning. i mentioned how hard it is in actuality because there is so many "auto pilot" programs running that have to be turned off. sometimes i dont expect a "program" to pop up, and i find myself saying something or feeling an emotion automatically, but thats not the emotion i want to feel or a habit that i dont want to keep doing.
this is my new constant practice, till i am not on autopilot anymore.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
And if you can simply learn to consciously use different ways of knowing, you’ll discover that “the unique you” is much more huge than your previous ways of knowing had suggested. Indeed, to jump a long way ahead, you’ll eventually discover that a physical body, or any kind of body, is illusory, and is an unnecessary prison. I’ve thrown that last sentence in because I guess it has to do with the essence of why people are interested in OBEs in the first place.

My interest in OBEs is simply to gain conscious access to my HS. If I connect with that wise and loving creative intelligence, then I can play this game, this "unnecessary prison", the absolute best way that I can. After I gain access, then it may be fun exploring elsewhere by OBE. Going OBE just to escape prison, or just into a different adventure, could lead one into a place without access to the tools needed to maintain freedom, well being and joy.

The most precious scenario I can imagine, is that I will eventually be able to visit and interact with anyone, any animal, any place that I have ever loved, and on my command, come and go as I please.

[TraineeHuman]

Of course, Ron, once one gets to the point of knowing through experience that physical reality is some type of illusion, then it loses any "prison" significance whatsoever. In such a state of knowing, playing the physical game can be rather like watching a movie, where it's fun to be really frightened, say, as a fun activity to do.

[Freed Fox]

I can certainly relate to suffering being self generated, but I can also understand fully how that is a tough pill to swallow. Leading up to my 'Gaia' experience (again, a highly pivotal and profound moment for me), I was personally experiencing a great deal of turmoil regarding both my direction in life and my relationships with others close to me. During the peak of these difficulties, I would have been quite closed to the notion that I was the central cause of my suffering and in fact it would have probably made me quite angry. It was a very difficult process to see that my ignorance and chiefly a rampant ego was really the primary source of it all. I had to lose quite a lot to learn that lesson.

Even now, I have an incurable illness which has effected me on a daily basis since I was 15. It was the source of a great deal of suffering to me for several years, and made it easy to see myself as a victim of circumstance. However I eventually came to the point where I was able to shift my perspective, and see it more as an obstacle, or a lesson. It became more of a challenge than a curse. It still effects me, but I no longer really see it as a sort of unnecessary suffering (if that makes sense).

Anyway, I had another vivid dream last night, though not nearly as long as the last one.

I was riding in a car with my sister and my mother (who was driving). As we went along, I saw numerous tornadoes forming around us, but mostly behind us. There were at least four of them. I then looked ahead of us, off to the passenger side, and saw a massive white cloud formation which had beautiful, vibrant rainbow colors around the sides. I pointed it out, and soon after it changed shape. It turned into a massive, sort-of goat-man that was laying parallel with the earth, facing down toward the ground. Its face somewhat resembled a Japanese Oni. Once it had assumed this new form it began flying in our direction. Though the transformation was very surprising, I didn't find it alarming save for the fact that it was so large, that we were the size of ants by comparison.

We soon stopped in a town I'd never seen before, at which point I wandered off on my own. I soon found myself in the alleyways of a neighborhood in which every house had apparently been recently painted, each with different shades of bright colors. I quickly found myself unable to navigate out of this neighborhood because every house seemed to be surrounded by tall, chain-link fences without gates. Again, this wasn't alarming to me, but it was somewhat frustrating.

Well, that's about all I can recall. As always, thanks for humoring me.

[soleil]

Posted by rmauersr (here)

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
And if you can simply learn to consciously use different ways of knowing, you’ll discover that “the unique you” is much more huge than your previous ways of knowing had suggested. Indeed, to jump a long way ahead, you’ll eventually discover that a physical body, or any kind of body, is illusory, and is an unnecessary prison. I’ve thrown that last sentence in because I guess it has to do with the essence of why people are interested in OBEs in the first place.

My interest in OBEs is simply to gain conscious access to my HS. If I connect with that wise and loving creative intelligence, then I can play this game, this "unnecessary prison", the absolute best way that I can. After I gain access, then it may be fun exploring elsewhere by OBE. Going OBE just to escape prison, or just into a different adventure, could lead one into a place without access to the tools needed to maintain freedom, well being and joy.

The most precious scenario I can imagine, is that I will eventually be able to visit and interact with anyone, any animal, any place that I have ever loved, and on my command, come and go as I please.

hi ron, i am not an obe pro or anything. but i cant help but think that if the circumstances are fine (you can be alone in a quiet room) you should be able to OBE via direct or indirect. with your desire, you should be able to do it. and get there. do you attempt to obe regularily?
another suggestion is, robert bruce has a walkthrough method/book called master astral projection in 90 days. im sure you can learn to build up your confidence to OBE by doing the methods, if you stick to it.
the key is sticking to it. occams razer. keep things simple.

exerpt from 'you forever'
LESSON NINE
In the last lesson we dealt in the concluding stages with thought. We
said “thought is where you want it to be.” That is a formula which really
can assist us to get out of the body, to do astral travelling. Let us repeat
it.
Thought is where you want it to be. Outside of you, if you want it so.
Let us have a little practice. Here again, you will need to be where you
are quite alone, where there are no distractions. You are going to try to get yourself out of your body.
You must be alone, you must be relaxed, and we suggest that for ease you lie down, preferably upon a bed. Make
sure that no one can intrude and ruin your experiment. When you are
settled, breathing slowly, thinking of this experiment, concentrate on a
point six feet in front of you, close your eyes, concentrate, WILL
yourself to think that you — the real you, the astral you — watches your
body from some six feet away. Think! Practice! Make yourself
concentrate. Then, with practice, you will suddenly experience a slight,
almost electric shock, and you will see your body lying with eyes closed
some six feet away.

i think this has been as simple as it gets. and considering you are saying you need this before that. then keep at it.

for me, my timing is so bad and busy. i cant even do raduga's method let alone this method. i wish you the best luck, and cant wait to hear some OBE success'. we're so many pages in and id quite also like to hear some obe success experiences here and there too.

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by Reinhard (here)

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
.........So, tell me what you're noticing when you're practicing being "at-one" with specific things or people or whatever. You need to experience it for yourselves. Even if you seem to be experiencing nothing, tell us about your failure......

Oh, those are quite intriguing moments: .... I feel limitless, no boundaries whatsoever, heart is jumping, multi-dimensional warmth,............... doesn't happen very often, but I re-member (what a word!) quite a few of those moments and charish them....wishing for more

Reinhard, those wonderful experiences you have had on rare occasions are undoubtedly glimpses of Source, or experience of Source. Such experience involves one of the four ways of knowing that I haven’t said anything about yet. This is the knowing one has when one experiences total identity with everything, and all at the same time. I usually experience it briefly or longer when I meditate. I like to call it the Void. It has two “sides”. One is a profound emptiness that paradoxically is in everything and even contains everything. The other “side” is profound bliss. One normally experiences one “side” or the other at a time. As I’ve been saying, without daily access at least very briefly to that experience, a person is kind of stuck with suffering. But people do get to experiencing the Void regularly, though no doubt only in a future lifetime for many, unfortunately.

This is connected to what I have said about being “at one”. Let me first clarify emphatically that I have asked everyone that’s willing and serious to practice being “at one” during their everyday life, rather than during meditation. It’s also true, however, that proper meditation is exactly the same thing as being at one with your Higher Mind. But the primary practice is during everyday life.

When you practice “at one” experiencing of another person, for instance, you’ll find you are experiencing their emotions and thoughts and the sensations in their body, in some general kind of way, mostly. When you practice being “at one” with something inanimate in your daily life, you’ll start to “just know” details about it without anyone having to tell you. I once had a spiritual teacher who was quite clairvoyant who would constantly irritate me by insisting I knew all sorts of stuff that I believed I didn’t. In some way, though, I’m sure in retrospect he could see that I could capably use the “at one” “spectacles” to get the answers.

The way the “at one” practice works in daily life, though, is that it can only work because you’re actually using the first way of knowing, but subconsciously. But why this exercise will gradually bring you closer and closer to Source is that it does require you to keep experiencing the first way subconsciously, until one day that will break through the surface.

My experience with meditation schools/systems/etc is that they eventually teach you to access wonderful things during meditation, but they never have a decent answer to how one can carry over something of those things from the meditation session into daily life. This exercise is such an answer. But it needs not to be practiced at work, at home with the family, and so on.

[animovado]

Hi TH and hi to every contributor to this beautiful thread, that accompanies my life during the last weeks and helps me to get a little more back on track.
Thank you!

My experience with meditation schools/systems/etc is that they eventually teach you to access wonderful things during meditation, but they never have a decent answer to how one can carry over something of those things from the meditation session into daily life. This exercise is such an answer. But it needs not to be practiced at work, at home with the family, and so on.

I think i use the "at one" practice more or less in my daily life, but i widened the focus of the "at one" with this or that, more to the broader picture of "how i am now". This includes moments of nearness to people, animals and plants and also to my thoughts, feelings and bodily sensations.

The "prison" could be a good description for the "kingdom of the ego", where
i am my own jail guard and prisoner at the same time.
To feel better in this small and narrow cell it's maybe not a bad idea to throw some bulky waste out to create "new space". (All the trinkets i'm still carrying and i've been in this prison for..)

That creates the impression that i'm feeling more at home instead of being in a prison.
And i can use the newly acquired space for exercises like being "at one".

[Jake]

the essence of why people are interested in OBEs in the first place.

This topic could be quite important. Why ARE folks interested in OBE? I spent half my life trying to stop it from happening!! I didn't want anything to do with it for many years! They still kept coming.. Powerful energy body events that held me paralyzed and vibrating/gagging,, There were always menacing 'shadow' creatures with red glowing eyes! The fear was indescribable. It would leave me stuttering for weeks. I would go MONTHS without knowing if I was dreaming or not. (sitting here now, I cannot tell!!) I am certain that THAT is not why folks are interested in OBE!!

Knowing that you are more than your physical human body, brings with it a great awakening. Yet, the great awakening will occur NO MATTER OF OBE!!! So why ARE folks so interested in OBE. So called 'experts' will tell you that it is just a dream. (how do you describe to someone who does not see color, what COLOR is???)

Here is my best answer. The OBE leads to powerful, personal awareness, that does not require religion, government, money, permission, education, etc.... It is a vast potential that is out there, waiting to be embraced!! It is the one potential that will break the chains of the 'human belief system filters', and will unshackle us from the current 'predicament' on our wee planet. One can do this with a SINGLE OBE. It will be a question of wether or not folks have the courage to EMBRACE what is happening to them. I certainly did NOT, at first. I was dragged into this, kicking and screaming.

This is a REAL phenomenon!!! I think folks (who have not yet remembered an OBE) can sense that this is a real phenomenon. Keep at it!! We are changing the world!!!

Jake.

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by animovado (here)
I think i use the "at one" practice more or less in my daily life, but i widened the focus of the "at one" with this or that, more to the broader picture of "how i am now". This includes moments of nearness to people, animals and plants and also to my thoughts, feelings and bodily sensations.

The "prison" could be a good description for the "kingdom of the ego", where
i am my own jail guard and prisoner at the same time.
To feel better in this small and narrow cell it's maybe not a bad idea to throw some bulky waste out to create "new space". (All the trinkets i'm still carrying and i've been in this prison for..)

That creates the impression that i'm feeling more at home instead of being in a prison.
And i can use the newly acquired space for exercises like being "at one".

Yes, animovado! It helps to practice being “near to”, or “at one with”, people, Nature, things, everything – in whatever ways make sense to you. A broader sense is totally fine by me.

Let me explain. A quite significant part of the dumbing-down we have been subjected to involves superficialty, making our world and ourselves superficial. Movie stars, models, sports stars, and all sorts of other strange things are popularly considered very important. Our society’s conditioning includes an enormous taboo against seeing or knowing things or people from the inside.

If, for example, we manage to truly know/experience a person from the inside, we directly experience or see their side of it all, their admittedly partial view, as more or less as valid as our own partial view, or certainly our ego’s.

I’ve suggested practicing some level of “at one” experience with people and things as one way of overcoming that enormous problem of superficialty permeating our entire society. That’s doing something direct. I don’t claim it’s the only solution by any means.

There are many, many varieties of ways you can be “at one” with a person. Psychic healing is just one of these. Interestingly, although physical diseases are supposedly physical, in my experience and in that of all psychic healers, as far as I know, the healing that occurs is over 99% psychological – emotional and mental. I first discovered I had a talent for healing when I was seven. My mother suffered a ruptured appendix for over three hours before getting to hospital, plus she was extremely allergic to the penicillin she was having pumped into her. Worse still, she had deliberately attempted to die, and was consequently in need of being healed of suicidal depression. I somehow found a way to “journey inside” her, and as a result somehow seemed to summon huge quantities of dazzling light. She was back working full-time within a week, and the family physician said it was the biggest miracle he had seen in his twenty-something years of practice.

As far as I know, whenever I do a psychic healing a significant part of my awareness in an OB state. I believe that’s both at the etheric level (3D) and the ego-complex level (probably upper 5D). So, going “inside” can often – and I would say often does -- involve experiencing a significant amount of “scenes” from OB realms. However, I know I can do it while still retaining a substantial degree of physical, awake body consciousness – while performing a healing, and otherwise as well.

[Finefeather]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
Of course, Ron, once one gets to the point of knowing through experience that physical reality is some type of illusion, then it loses any "prison" significance whatsoever. In such a state of knowing, playing the physical game can be rather like watching a movie, where it's fun to be really frightened, say, as a fun activity to do.

Hi TH and All
Are you suggesting here that the physical 3D world is an illusion?
You say..."physical reality is some type of illusion"...now this in itself is contradictory...but to suggest that the 3D world is an illusion is in itself an illusion...or rather a gross misunderstanding of the facts of consciousness as well as matter. You speak of physical reality but what you are saying is that it really is physical illusion.
I would suggest we ask someone who has just run into a wall, how much of an illusion it was

This concept, which originates from Indian philosophy, and is now been 'sold' as fact, by the many gurus around the Western world, who copied it from the Indians is nothing more than ignorance of the dimensions of the cosmos...and the constitution of the Beings who inhabit it.

The physical world is as real as any other of the 49 levels in our cosmos...they are each just very different in terms of form and consciousness.
The reason why most cannot understand this is simply because of the source of the information they have chosen to 'enlighten' themselves with.
Just because we have had an OBE or some other subjective experience does not prove that physical is illusion...it should prove to us that physical is another dimension...with it's own qualities...which we are experiencing objectively at this point in our evolution.

The only reason why I do not recommend OBE at an early stage of development is because the casual OB experience is usually a journey into confusion.
There is not one human on this planet who can understand the OB world unless, or until, you are guided and trained by your Augoeides...And, this will only happen when each is ready for such...until then OBs are nothing more than a journey into subjectivity. Those who have had previous life experience, under correct circumstances, will also understand higher dimensions to the point which they have reached up to the present.

It is an illusion if anyone thinks they are some highly evolved Being here on earth...if they were...they would know it a long time ago.

The other point I would like to make is that IMO the entire story about our Higher Self or Higher Mind...as is been misunderstood by most here...is the biggest stumbling block of the failure to come to grips with how we should approach life.

But this is only my opinion and it is up to each to examine what each gets out of any story they may read or may be told...the only truth is that objectivity is the only way we can grow...there is no other way...everything else is temporary subjectivity and thus illusion.

Because we cannot understand the matter aspect of life...which is present in all the 49 dimensions...we think that the physical world is so different. But this is ONLY because we do not understand the higher dimensions...objectively...yet. Once we do...and this can take many many incarnations we will have a completely different understanding of what reality is...because reality is one thing only...and nothing else...it is objective consciousness. Until we are trained to be objectively conscious in higher dimensions we will always have the impression that the physical world is an illusion...simply because our emotional and or our mental faculties are not yet fully developed.

We are not nearly ready to arrange the celebration party, which we so ignorantly think we are so close to. We are babies compared to some who have attained higher consciousness. The average human is still largely driven by animal instincts and when we think we are more advanced...we simply have no idea of how far we are still from Causal Consciousness...let alone Cosmic Consciousness...do you at this point even know who you really are?...when you do...you will be getting closer.

Take care and my love
Ray

[Finefeather]

I was asked a question about my post above by PM and decided to include my answer her as well...for what it is wearth.

Can you elaborate on that, what do you mean exactly with the misunderstanding regarding the Higher Self/Mind?

There is actually no such thing as the 'Higher Self'. There is only the Self...the true Being which is you or me or whoever. The very term 'the Higher Self' implies that we are a Being who has somehow attained a higher consciousness and has for some unknown reason sent this ignorant part of it into a lower physical world. If this 'Higher Self' was so 'Higher' then what is it doing in an unevolved world? This concept fails to address evolution of consciousness and is an emotional construct to make us feel as if we are more than we really are...at this point in our evolution. It is driven by the ego...and by ignorance of the nature of life. This is something that I cannot easily convince anyone of because it is a phase which we all will go through as we get to grips with our emotional and mental consciousness. Our quest is to refine our incarnating envelopes so that we can achieve higher consciousness. The thing that people call the 'Higher Self' is simply our memory bank of all our past experiences...we are exactly what we are now...on this physical plane...there is no 'SuperMe' yet...that is what we will become...and that is our destiny...exciting and motivating.
This is an extreme subject ONLY because we have made it so difficult ourselves...because we just cannot believe that life is simpler than we think it is.

In addition I should have also mentioned that the Self is what we are trying to discover and the irony of it is that the Self is right inside us...waiting to be discovered or recognized...It is not a separate super Being. This part of us as an individual Self, the core of our Being is dormant in the Causal Consciousness...and this is the 'surprise' we will get one day when we realize that what we have been looking for all this time was really just 'you'...right inside all this time. .and here we have been hunting high and low to find ourselves

Only when we have reached this level of consciousness where we know that we are out true Self can we move on into higher kingdoms like the Planetary Kingdom and higher.

Take care and my love
Ray

[Shamz]

I am pretty sure, when referring to this reality or 3D world - the world illusion is meant as a metaphor - we know how it feels to bump one's head into a wall. Illusion is of the physical body...which we think is everything...since we can feel...touch ..see ..hear and smell the world around us... everything besides these senses does not mean anything...to an ordinary person who has not yet awaken to the reality.... that is an illusion to him/her.

Peace and love

[TraineeHuman]

Ray, I take it you haven’t read some of my earliest posts in this thread. I believe I’ve made it very clear indeed from the beginning that I have a very different take on astral travel than someone like Jake or teradactyl. And that for me any exercises in learning astral travel are in my opinion of no value at all except as a kind of warmup to “higher” OB experience, i.e. what I’d describe as OB experience that doesn’t involve or need anything that could be called a “higher body”. So I probably agree with you that “subjective” astral travel attempts or experiences may often be harmful or misleading or whatever.

You may also have noticed that I’ve long ago stopped entering any discussion on little astral travel techniques and self-hypnosis techniques and exercises, because I do continue to consider them so valueless. And to me they now seem even more valueless, after carefully reflecting about them over the last months. It continues to be surprising and embarrassing to me that teradatyl and Jake continue to post about such things here. I don’t know why they don’t post such material in a thread such as The Secret Of The Soul instead – which I’d certainly prefer.

I believe I’ve also made it very clear indeed that I consider the experience of proper meditation and phenomena related to it as the most important and the central type of OB experience and phenomena. I’m open to changing my mind on almost anything, but I certainly still continue to hold that view.

I’m happy to comment on people’s dreams, because they come from the deeper Self OB.

On the other hand, I doubt I would agree with your claim that “discussion of the Higher Mind is harmful”. I do agree with most of what you say in post #1013. Yes, it’s true all there is ultimately is the true Self. But as you say yourself, at present most people haven’t realised that. But I certainly don’t agree that for such people all talk of a Higher Mind is misleading and counterproductive.

Why don’t I agree? Actually, the ego is even more an illusion than the Higher Mind.

I agree with you that strictly speaking the Higher Mind is an illusion, for those who are able to reach a certain point. But even while you insist that the Higher Mind is an illusion you find it necessary in the process to make many references to the ego. Fine, then. But I suggest you should be consistent, and never mention or hint at the ego, or any equivalent of it, ever again! Please be consistent.

As far as I can see, people need some kind of notion of a Higher Mind as a type of bridge to understanding the Self. It’s very easy, and in my opinion doesn’t take much skill or insight, to criticize the whole notion of the Higher Mind as being an illusion. That insight doesn’t impress me. But I don’t see any evidence at all so far that you’ve been able to create any better way of explaining the Self to people in a workable way. If you’re able to do that, then I believe you should certainly write a book, and talk to Eckhart Tolle’s publisher. Until I see it, I’ll continue to consider that it’s thousands of times easier to criticize than it is to create something that’s useful. And all pontifications that aren’t backed up by argument and evidence, to me are, to put it mildly, not worth taking seriously at all, regardless of who they may come from.

Also, personally in this thread I’m not interested in debating most philosophical questions. I did start a thread where I tried to elicit some sensible discussion of such topics in the Spirituality thread “What does it mean for you to free yourself of illusions?” Unfortunately, most of the posts weren’t as fertile as I’d hoped.

I first experienced the first three levels of Source in mid-adolescence. My interest in philosophy and psychology only arose out of attempting to express what I had directly experienced. I don’t apologise for my claim to be largely free of suffering. I started this thread with the purpose of doing my best to bring some others closer to what I have learned through direct experience, with the sole aim of the lessening of their suffering. Actually, I discovered that the Buddha was wrong in claiming that the very nature of existing in the physical world is suffering. I don’t base what I say in this thread on anything, ultimately, than my own experience.

Unfortunately you do seem to have some fixed opinions regarding subjectivity and objectivity. (Though I probably agree with some if not most of the things you say about what you call “subjectivism”.) I happen to have a postgraduate degree and a little lecturing experience in philosophy. Philosophers have unanimously agreed since Descartes’ day (and also centuries ago in ancient China and India) that the only things that are certain are what are known as “inter-subjective”. Something is inter-subjective if it’s subjective and also everyone has the same subjective experience of it. For example, any measurement is inter-subjective, as is the statement: “I can’t doubt my own existence.” I assume you have a belief that anything that’s certain is “objective”, but I’m afraid that’s a false belief.

Unfortunately I’m committed to working all weekend and more than forty hours this week, so I don’t have the time, for at several days, to address your remarks in further detail than this, Ray. Thank you for all your very deep insights, though. This is in any case a discussion forum, so there’s no requirement that everyone should agree on anything.

[Shamz]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
Ray, I take it you haven’t read some of my earliest posts in this thread. I believe I’ve made it very clear indeed from the beginning that I have a very different take on astral travel than someone like Jake or teradactyl. And that for me any exercises in learning astral travel are in my opinion of no value at all except as a kind of warmup to “higher” OB experience, i.e. what I’d describe as OB experience that doesn’t involve or need anything that could be called a “higher body”. So I probably agree with you that “subjective” astral travel attempts or experiences may often be harmful or misleading or whatever.

You may also have noticed that I’ve long ago stopped entering any discussion on little astral travel techniques and self-hypnosis techniques and exercises, because I do continue to consider them so valueless. And to me they now seem even more valueless, after carefully reflecting about them over the last months. It continues to be surprising and embarrassing to me that teradatyl and Jake continue to post about such things here. I don’t know why they don’t post such material in a thread such as The Secret Of The Soul instead – which I’d certainly prefer.

I believe I’ve also made it very clear indeed that I consider the experience of proper meditation and phenomena related to it as the most important and the central type of OB experience and phenomena. I’m open to changing my mind on almost anything, but I certainly still continue to hold that view.

I’m happy to comment on people’s dreams, because they come from the deeper Self OB.

On the other hand, I doubt I would agree with your claim that “discussion of the Higher Mind is harmful”. I do agree with most of what you say in post #1013. Yes, it’s true all there is ultimately is the true Self. But as you say yourself, at present most people haven’t realised that. But I certainly don’t agree that for such people all talk of a Higher Mind is misleading and counterproductive.

Why don’t I agree? Actually, the ego is even more an illusion than the Higher Mind.

I agree with you that strictly speaking the Higher Mind is an illusion, for those who are able to reach a certain point. But even while you insist that the Higher Mind is an illusion you find it necessary in the process to make many references to the ego. Fine, then. But I suggest you should be consistent, and never mention or hint at the ego, or any equivalent of it, ever again! Please be consistent.

As far as I can see, people need some kind of notion of a Higher Mind as a type of bridge to understanding the Self. It’s very easy, and in my opinion doesn’t take much skill or insight, to criticize the whole notion of the Higher Mind as being an illusion. That insight doesn’t impress me. But I don’t see any evidence at all so far that you’ve been able to create any better way of explaining the Self to people in a workable way. If you’re able to do that, then I believe you should certainly write a book, and talk to Eckhart Tolle’s publisher. Until I see it, I’ll continue to consider that it’s thousands of times easier to criticize than it is to create something that’s useful. And all pontifications that aren’t backed up by argument and evidence, to me are, to put it mildly, not worth taking seriously at all, regardless of who they may come from.

Also, personally in this thread I’m not interested in debating most philosophical questions. I did start a thread where I tried to elicit some sensible discussion of such topics in the Spirituality thread “What does it mean for you to free yourself of illusions?” Unfortunately, most of the posts weren’t as fertile as I’d hoped.

I first experienced the first three levels of Source in mid-adolescence. My interest in philosophy and psychology only arose out of attempting to express what I had directly experienced. I don’t apologise for my claim to be largely free of suffering. I started this thread with the purpose of doing my best to bring some others closer to what I have learned through direct experience, with the sole aim of the lessening of their suffering. Actually, I discovered that the Buddha was wrong in claiming that the very nature of existing in the physical world is suffering. I don’t base what I say in this thread on anything, ultimately, than my own experience.

Unfortunately you do seem to have some fixed opinions regarding subjectivity and objectivity. (Though I probably agree with some if not most of the things you say about what you call “subjectivism”.) I happen to have a postgraduate degree and a little lecturing experience in philosophy. Philosophers have unanimously agreed since Descartes’ day (and also centuries ago in ancient China and India) that the only things that are certain are what are known as “inter-subjective”. Something is inter-subjective if it’s subjective and also everyone has the same subjective experience of it. For example, any measurement is inter-subjective, as is the statement: “I can’t doubt my own existence.” I assume you have a belief that anything that’s certain is “objective”, but I’m afraid that’s a false belief.

Unfortunately I’m committed to working all weekend and more than forty hours this week, so I don’t have the time, for at several days, to address your remarks in further detail than this, Ray. Thank you for all your very deep insights, though. This is in any case a discussion forum, so there’s no requirement that everyone should agree on anything.

Love

[Freed Fox]

Interesting...

What I'm basically getting from this is; it isn't so much that the 'higher mind' or 'Higher Self' is *itself* an illusion, but rather the notion of *separation* from it is. Thus to those with conscious connection to it (or perhaps more accurately, cognition/realization of its essence), it seems redundant or inaccurate to refer to it in such a way that implies any degree of separation. I might point out; to those who have been riding bicycles for so long and so regularly that it has become second nature to them, it is easy to forget how hard it was to learn how initially, all those years ago.

I hope you'll forgive a quick aside from me on the topic of illusion, TH, seeing as there is a separate thread for that (as you've just pointed out). It is a subject which I have contemplated at great length and will undoubtedly continue to do so because I am far from making a substantial or concrete conclusion as to what it would mean to me to 'free myself of all illusions' (and thus answering the query you elsewhere put forth).

I believe that when many consider the idea of an illusion, they tend to think about things such as card tricks, or when a magician 'saws his assistant in half'. That is certainly a type of illusion, one of a visual nature. Then others may think of the cognitive or psychological illusion, which is arguably what placebos demonstrate to us... when a disease is 'cured' by a simple sugar pill. At that level, illusion seems even more powerful, but here's the catch: it is still observable from outside the illusion itself.

The magician knows his sleight of hand. The doctor knows what she prescribed.

I think this is, at least in part, the motivation behind pursuing OBEs. It seems to be the only way to get backstage and observe the magician's secrets, or to sneak a peek at the doctor's medical notes (if you'll forgive the mixing of metaphors). The only way - or so it would seem - outside of death itself to validate one's existence as more than the body and view this existence with an objectivity which is arguably impossible while one is confined to the body.

Now, of course, this is where meditation comes into the picture for me. As I cannot willingly initiate conscious OBEs, it is the tool to which I resort for this broader, elevated perspective (elevated above my own average level of consciousness, that is; not elevated above others!).

Here's where it gets tricky for me... I find it exceedingly difficult to gauge myself in regards to where I am along this path. Although I have certainly experienced benefits from my practice, I know it is limited and not as regularly performed as might be ideal. Furthermore, although some here and elsewhere in written works are quite eloquent in conveying their metaphysical dealings, they are by their nature incredibly difficult to describe and condense into words. Alas, the inadequacy of linguistics...

What need is there to gauge myself? Well, I certainly have no need to compare myself to others...that would be an egoistic motive. Rather, it is in assessing the possibility of yet another type of illusion, a type which is so far beyond the illusions I mentioned above that it becomes a feat of mental gymnastics to even consider. I speak not of visual, perceptive, cognitive, or psychological illusion, but existential illusion.

Existential illusion would encompass all the other types, and then some. It would be inter-subjective. And, perhaps most importantly, it would not be readily observable from any sort of objective, elevated, or 'outside' perspective. Unless (of course) one dies, or goes out-of-body. Even then, some who subscribe to the theories of a collective illusion (sometimes referred to as 'the Matrix') go further to say that even in death we do not escape it. I won't go down that road. Suffice to say, modern science cannot even disprove such a notion. It seems that for all intents and purposes, we 'construct' reality through the filters of our perceptive organs, and much of experiential reality can (to them) be reduced to electrical activity through the neural networks. If it weren't for 'inter-subjectivity', nothing would be certain about reality at all... but if what we consider to be 'reality' is really a collective and shared illusion, how would one ever hope to prove or disprove such a notion?

I am not myself a reductionist when it comes to reality or the nature of existence, but I would be hard pressed to tell you with any certainty what I am or what all of this really is. Does that make me ignorant, or open minded?

Lord... I promised a 'quick aside' and ended up with a short essay. My apologies... Trainee, feel free to steer the ship back on course!

[Jake]

It continues to be surprising and embarrassing to me that teradatyl and Jake continue to post about such things here.

I am shocked that you have invited me to NOT post... Good luck in all that you do!!!

[Kraut]

Please, let's all be calm. We're all on the same path and should be supportive of each other despite differences of views and opinion. I'm sure there is no bad intent in anything said here, so let's keep a cool head.

[jiminii]

we have an auditors code in Scientology
we are not allowed to evaluate or invalidate people
they must make their own evaluations and realizations by themself
this also works in life .... why do you not invalidate or evaluate someone or their think?
because it is a ARC break .. affinity reality and communication .. there will be a break in one or more of them
and what is the result ... ???? NO COMMUNICATION or BAD communication
I am sure everyone wants others to see their point of view .. but if you ARC break them in the conversation you do the opposite of what you wanted to achieve. you don't bring understand .. you break the affinity or reality or the communication and you get as a result .. no one wants to listen to you or even look at your information ....

so the art of communication is to be able to say what you want without invalidating or evaluating for other people ... you can call this polite or humane ... any of the other kindnesses people can use to describe it ....

the art is to allow the other to say what they want to say .. and then you weave what they say into your reality as a response ... back .. then the person would be willing to look at your data ... and it is a system that works ... where you he does not evaluate for you or invalidate you ... too ... he accepts what you say and weaves it in with what he wants to say to you ... and then you have a communication cycle of affinity reality and communication ,., no one wants their communication stopped or invalidated or evaluated as something else ....

this is called sane communication ... humane communication between intelligent people ,,,

I'm sure you can say what you want to say ,.. without damaging the rest of the people on the forum .. that would be intelligent

it is NOT INTELLIGENT .. to break everyone's communication or reality or affinity for the SAKE of PUSHING YOUR AGENDA ONLY

jim