The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

[Jake]

I would always welcome a difference of opinion and a difference of experience.

TraineeHuman,, did you not begin this discussion by commenting on a direct question from member Teradactyl?? How do you justify your preference that this member along with others DO NOT post in this discussion??? To WHAT then, does this discussion serve?? Am I not allowed to enjoy the same wisdom that others do??? Am I only to listen,, and SHUT UP??? Please explain!

My friend,,, I have a piece of the puzzle.... I would NEVER suggest that it was the only one that matters!!!

All my best wishes...
Jake.

[jiminii]

Posted by Jake (here)
I would always welcome a difference of opinion and a difference of experience.

TraineeHuman,, did you not begin this discussion by commenting on a direct question from member Teradactyl?? How do you justify your preference that this member along with others DO NOT post in this discussion??? To WHAT then, does this discussion serve?? Am I not allowed to enjoy the same wisdom that others do??? Am I only to listen,, and SHUT UP??? Please explain!

My friend,,, I have a piece of the puzzle.... I would NEVER suggest that it was the only one that matters!!!

All my best wishes...
Jake.

this is not for you jake ... I saw what you saw too

shouldn't say someone else's data is no good because only you know

I mean I would like to get into yoga and other stuff too to see what is there that is why I can share Music's point of view too ,,,

I have been in my world a long time and now I am in asia and I should learn their way of thinking too .. then it would be sharing ... and we can talk many ideas ...

I was just saying ... I see a lot of people do this ... and this is not communication ... and you are right to attack it

jim

[jiminii]

what I see here is THE BEING KNOWS ... some might get their realizations from different sources .. and they might look at the WORD higher self ... but still meaning the same idea ... and illusions?? if you were operating out of your body like you should be with your own perceptions looking at the body you are running .. this would be the natural way to do it ... it is not natural to have the viewpoint shifted inside the body ... it is natural for the spirit to communicate by radio frequencies and not sound waves ,.. but on this planet the viewpoint is shifted to the body to trap us ... from this point of view .. you could say this creation is an illusion ,.. a holographic universe we created ... to operate in ... that is one way to view it ... the art of all of this is to be able to see what the other one is looking at from their viewpoint ... this would be pan determinism a more sharing reality ,.

jim

[Jake]

This is powerful information that is being brought to the table. The OBE has a tendency to empower, and create sovereign beings. I understand the passion for a truth that I have discovered!! I love to see it in others,, it is quite fulfilling for me to see amazing awakenings in the people around me. I am even more amazed that the discussion of OBEs has taken on such sophisticated qualities. I DO NOT think that picking and choosing who gets to comment on what one is saying, is very fair... This is NOT a 'one size fits all' experience. Not the OBE not the Dream not physicality,,, none of it!! Waking up to the non-physical nature of OUR understanding of things is going to take ALL of us... NOT just some of us!!! I would prefer to see a LEADER of a discussion,,, not a dictator....

This discussion has always impressed me... I am not okay with being singled here!! But, if it is preferred, I will not be part of it,,, I guess?!

[Eram]

Hi Jake,

As I read it, TH expressed his amazement about you and teradactyl, to still talk about different techniques to get OBE here, after he explained his point of view of those kind of techniques and the sort of OBE experience that is obtained by that.
He did not ask you two to withhold from posting here at all.
Please read again carefully

Not taking sides here, just pointing out what might have been a misinterpretation from his post.

love you all!

[Finefeather]

Posted by Shamz (here)
I am pretty sure, when referring to this reality or 3D world - the world illusion is meant as a metaphor - we know how it feels to bump one's head into a wall. Illusion is of the physical body...which we think is everything...since we can feel...touch ..see ..hear and smell the world around us... everything besides these senses does not mean anything...to an ordinary person who has not yet awaken to the reality.... that is an illusion to him/her.

Now here we have a very interesting and common thinking by humans on this planet.
What we are not privy to is that there are numerous different stages of consciousness evolution, which is evident amongst us humans...but in a broad sense we have 2 main types...We have the 'physicalist' and the 'spiritualists' and yes of course they mingle.

The physicalists see life as a battle between themselves and all other physical phenomena. They are often paranoid in their thinking and see most things as a threat to their freedom and so called right to choose. Amongst this type we find those who use every 'evil' trick in the book to make their lives more comfortable...and to hell with the rest. We also have those who are still physicalists but have a deep sense of comrade or unity and wish to see peace on earth and brotherhood, and more love.
Each of these is resigned to life in a physical world and see any talk of life beyond death as mere speculation and unproven by science...who are their standard by which they realize their reality.

The spiritualists think life on earth is some kind of test and prison and all is just an illusion because they are convinced that our true home is somewhere up there next to god...our saviour and only hope of escape out of this mess. They pray often and try to practice every trick they can, like joining and paying gurus to free themselves from the intense turmoil on the planet. They are often also paranoid in their thinking because they give away all their worldly goods in some attempt to convince god that they don't belong here. This often brings self inflicted hardship and struggle which convinces them more than ever of the worthlessness of life on earth.

If we look at Avalon, as an example...we clearly can see this division, where we have those who are 'awake' and ready to do battle with the 'evil' ones and those who are 'awake' and who's only quest is to escape from this chaos.
Who is saying that we are not meant to fight and conquer the evil on earth?
Who is saying we should run off and leave the battle to those we think are just ignorant by remaining in the chaos?
Is this our freedom of choice or what?

All this, is going on, in different degrees, on this planet for one simple reason only...we have no idea who we are and no idea what we are doing here...and the fact is that we need guidance and clarity.

This guidance has come from the enlightened and those who are beginning to see the light themselves. The past 2000 years has seen many writings of great worth but most have been driven by emotional subjective thinking...and incorrect translation...we need the truth and the fact is that truth can only be got and understood by individual objective experience...there is no substitute. We are humans who have physical senses and these are the methods we use here to realize reality. If whoever created us was so intelligent to have come up with these senses then surely there is some reality in their use...and why would these be considered as organs of illusion?

There is only one logical explanation for our existence...(and remember if just one element in logic is false the entire logic is false)...and that is that everything...without exception...is evolving from one state into another higher state. This includes matter(light) and consciousness and is been facilitated by energy or will.
There is not one action or thought or phenomena that cannot be explained by one simple statement:

Thought creates form which creates consciousness.

That's it...this one simple statement can explain everything that you or I or the greatest Beings in our cosmos can imagine.

So the most important thing to get out of this is that nothing can exist in any plane or dimension or level of consciousness or dimension or whatever you would like to call the 49 states of consciousness which exist in our cosmos...without form.
Form is what creates consciousness and without form consciousness would not exist.

So the physical world is just another form of consciousness in which we are presently focused in and our senses are there for us to make sense of this reality. When we one day, in maybe a million years time, have evolved into the next higher dimension we will acquire the senses with which we will make sense of the reality there.

Right now we need to pave the way for future generations by turning this physical world into a more understandable phase in our long evolution...where 'evil' is seen for what it really is...failure to achieve higher consciousness...and progress or growth is realised by our actions and our deed...and most of all by unity...which is the only true form of love.

Take care and my love
Ray

[TraineeHuman]

Hi, Jake. As Eram points out, I wasn't inviting or suggesting that you shouldn't make posts here. I don't have control over what posts anyone makes anyway. I do, however, reserve the right to have my own opinion, based on my own limited experience. Similarly, teradactyl has made many posts on all sorts of things, and many of them have been quite brilliant, and very helpful to everyone.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
It continues to be surprising and embarrassing to me that teradatyl and Jake continue to post about such things here. I don’t know why they don’t post such material in a thread such as The Secret Of The Soul instead – which I’d certainly prefer.

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
Hi, Jake. As Eram points out, I wasn't inviting or suggesting that you shouldn't make posts here.

Perhaps we misread then, or perhaps you have some distinction in mind that we missed?

[Finefeather]

Hi TH
I think you might have misread my post in quite a few areas...so I think it is important for us to clear this up so we don't wonder off into conflict and the thread turns into a contest.

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
Ray, I take it you haven’t read some of my earliest posts in this thread. I believe I’ve made it very clear indeed from the beginning that I have a very different take on astral travel than someone like Jake or teradactyl. And that for me any exercises in learning astral travel are in my opinion of no value at all except as a kind of warmup to “higher” OB experience, i.e. what I’d describe as OB experience that doesn’t involve or need anything that could be called a “higher body”. So I probably agree with you that “subjective” astral travel attempts or experiences may often be harmful or misleading or whatever.

I am quite aware of what your stance is on OB but I think you have misunderstood what I said about OB. The real gist of my post was about the term Higher Self and not about OB. I have no problem with OB in any form if anyone wishes to pursue it. Who am I to tell anyone not to? My opinion is that casual OB in the lower realms can be dangerous and misleading if we are not aware of the many things which can confront us there. What you call 'higher' OB is simply higher dimension 'travel'...which itself can be misleading because of an inability to truly understand the nature of the place you'r in at the time. You could very well just be in one of the emotional dimensions and because of an imaginative subjective consciousness, think that you are in some higher dimension.
Your use of terms like 4D and 5D and 6D etc is not even considered by much higher evolved Beings to be of any value in determining the state we are in...because they clash with reality. So IMO much of the stuff you write about is subjective. This is why, I have noticed, you often get the dream interpretations wrong.
You clearly do not mention the fact that very few can actually even get into higher states of 'OB'...simply because your philosophy does not take evolution into account. The real reason why some people cannot consciously OB can be quite complex and is not as simple as some think. It is about what we are trying to achieve in each incarnation...and for many it is not necessary and in most cases does not indicate a higher level of growth. This is where understanding of the incarnating envelopes is of value.

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
I believe I’ve also made it very clear indeed that I consider the experience of proper meditation and phenomena related to it as the most important and the central type of OB experience and phenomena. I’m open to changing my mind on almost anything, but I certainly still continue to hold that view.

If you are open to changing your mind and still believe in things then it means you have not had objective confirmation of your present philosophy and that doubt still rules your life. Meditation is an inner journey not an out of body journey.

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
On the other hand, I doubt I would agree with your claim that “discussion of the Higher Mind is harmful”. I do agree with most of what you say in post #1013. Yes, it’s true all there is ultimately is the true Self. But as you say yourself, at present most people haven’t realised that. But I certainly don’t agree that for such people all talk of a Higher Mind is misleading and counterproductive.

Well I do not recall saying that...“discussion of the Higher Mind is harmful”...you are just imagining it...if you can direct me to it please do I was addressing the term 'Higher Self' not Higher Mind. If you are actually experiencing higher dimensions as you have frequently stated, you should know that there is no such thing as a Higher Self...and you should also know that the Higher Mind is actual the Causal Envelope in which the true Self is dormant. I am trying to steer away from terms which are steeped in myth and false understanding. I have also in the past used the term Higher Self because people are comfortable with it...but decided against this when I realised the many different ways people see this. You may have noticed that in my last posts I have been attempting to bring in a new set of words to set the myths aside.

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
Actually, the ego is even more an illusion than the Higher Mind.

Here is one of the statements which tells me where a person is consciously. This statement is a sure sign of lack of awareness of our constitution as well as the process of evolution.
Fist...the Higher Mind is not an illusion the Higher Self is the illusion...in the way it is been misunderstood here...and I am glad you decided to change the term Self to Mind.
The ego is also not an illusion...it is exactly who we are at a certain point in our evolution...ignorant and learning. The ego is not some entity sitting on our shoulder...leading us astray. The term ego has been turned into some little evil entity...rather than seeing it for what it actually is...the 'I' ...which is the unrealised true Self. This is the reason we need to determine our true Self, because then we can get on with the job of refining it, in order to evolve to higher states of consciousness instead of fighting it as if it is some appendage.

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
I agree with you that strictly speaking the Higher Mind is an illusion, for those who are able to reach a certain point. But even while you insist that the Higher Mind is an illusion you find it necessary in the process to make many references to the ego. Fine, then. But I suggest you should be consistent, and never mention or hint at the ego, or any equivalent of it, ever again! Please be consistent.

As I have stated above...I have never said the Higher Mind is an illusion...you have misread my post...thats all

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
As far as I can see, people need some kind of notion of a Higher Mind as a type of bridge to understanding the Self. It’s very easy, and in my opinion doesn’t take much skill or insight, to criticize the whole notion of the Higher Mind as being an illusion. That insight doesn’t impress me.

As I have stated above...I have never said the Higher Mind is an illusion...you have misread my post...thats all
And criticize is not my game. If people run across a road and gets bumped over by buses...is it criticizing to tell them not to run across the road?

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
But I don’t see any evidence at all so far that you’ve been able to create any better way of explaining the Self to people in a workable way. If you’re able to do that, then I believe you should certainly write a book, and talk to Eckhart Tolle’s publisher. Until I see it, I’ll continue to consider that it’s thousands of times easier to criticize than it is to create something that’s useful. And all pontifications that aren’t backed up by argument and evidence, to me are, to put it mildly, not worth taking seriously at all, regardless of who they may come from.

I am a firm supporter of the evolutionary matter and consciousness principle which is given out by the Planetary Hierarchy and Government, which Eckhart Tolle and many of the modern so called enlightened ones fail to address. This does not mean that they are wrong in all that they teach...it only means that they are not aware of the bigger picture yet. You cannot teach someone something if they do not have the capacity to comprehend it yet...but that does not mean they never will understand...because the evolution of consciousness is what will allow us to comprehend more and more, as we grow.

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
Also, personally in this thread I’m not interested in debating most philosophical questions. I did start a thread where I tried to elicit some sensible discussion of such topics in the Spirituality thread “What does it mean for you to free yourself of illusions?” Unfortunately, most of the posts weren’t as fertile as I’d hoped.

There is very little that can be achieved in a 'Spirituality' thread if you do not include philosophy because most people's spiritual thinking originates from some gurus philosophy...including your own. So by your lack of interest in other philosophy are you assuming yours is correct? Does philosophy also not mean the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge?

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
I first experienced the first three levels of Source in mid-adolescence. My interest in philosophy and psychology only arose out of attempting to express what I had directly experienced. I don’t apologise for my claim to be largely free of suffering. I started this thread with the purpose of doing my best to bring some others closer to what I have learned through direct experience, with the sole aim of the lessening of their suffering. Actually, I discovered that the Buddha was wrong in claiming that the very nature of existing in the physical world is suffering. I don’t base what I say in this thread on anything, ultimately, than my own experience.

With all due respects to your truly loving and admirable goals I would venture to say that the word 'Source' which so many misuse is a myth. There is no such thing that can be described as 'Source'. It is an attempt used by people to place their utterances on a pedestal...to impress the ignorant and to seek false status. Who or what do you think 'Source' is? The source of all knowledge?...then why is 'Source' sending out all these billions of Beings to gain knowledge...if he or it knows it all already? Is he just refreshing his memory? Or is he just playing some game to see how many of us can solve the riddle?
Please define 'Source' so we can get a better idea of what you think it is.

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
Unfortunately you do seem to have some fixed opinions regarding subjectivity and objectivity.
(Though I probably agree with some if not most of the things you say about what you call “subjectivism”.) I happen to have a postgraduate degree and a little lecturing experience in philosophy. Philosophers have unanimously agreed since Descartes’ day (and also centuries ago in ancient China and India) that the only things that are certain are what are known as “inter-subjective”. Something is inter-subjective if it’s subjective and also everyone has the same subjective experience of it. For example, any measurement is inter-subjective, as is the statement: “I can’t doubt my own existence.” I assume you have a belief that anything that’s certain is “objective”, but I’m afraid that’s a false belief.

What gives you the impression that it is unfortunate to have some fixed opinions? In any case I do not have fixed opinions I just have a different opinion to some others.
Most philosophers have their own opinions and many die with that opinion...that is why we have so many to choose from. I cannot believe the statement you make that “ Philosophers have unanimously agreed” that would be miracle and no...you assumed wrong...I do not believe that anything that's certain is objective. Certainty is a relative concept and depends on the mental state. The mental state is dependant on consciousness...and the consciousness is dependant on the evolutionary state.


If you feel threatened or think that any of my posts are not to your liking please let me know and I will either delete the posts or retire from this thread.

My mission is not to destroy but to unite...and I cannot miss the chance of placing some knowledge into the palms of another brother's hands, for his/her consideration, if it has the potential for growth and light and love.

Take care and my love
Ray

[Eram]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
It continues to be surprising and embarrassing to me that teradatyl and Jake continue to post about such things here. I don’t know why they don’t post such material in a thread such as The Secret Of The Soul instead – which I’d certainly prefer.

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
Hi, Jake. As Eram points out, I wasn't inviting or suggesting that you shouldn't make posts here.

Perhaps we misread then, or perhaps you have some distinction in mind that we missed?

such material, meaning... techniques to get OBE from Buhlman and others who use NLP-like and self hypnoses-like techniques to get there.
As I read it, it wasn't a hint to stop posting in this thread any more.

On the other hand it would take a very detached person to read such a comment with his/her name in it, without taking offense....

This subject is imo the one subject where you (TH) seem to have strong feelings about and to me it seems that it somewhat prevents an open discussion about it.
It's such an important issue to all who seek to get OBE and/or spiritual growth so I would like to discuss the whole subject in greater detail so we can all get to get a better understanding about it.

[Jake]

Okay, I have slept on it. Folks, I love you all. I will not be a distraction on this thread again! The Out of Body experience is not just a passing fancy for me. I have been on the front lines for many years. Bill Buhlman and I have had conversations about it,, Same with other 'pioneers' in this discovery!! All I am looking for is truth...

Hi, Jake. As Eram points out, I wasn't inviting or suggesting that you shouldn't make posts here. I don't have control over what posts anyone makes anyway. I do, however, reserve the right to have my own opinion, based on my own limited experience. Similarly, teradactyl has made many posts on all sorts of things, and many of them have been quite brilliant, and very helpful to everyone.

Yes, so do I,,, even if others are laughing with embarassement for me.... I respect your commitment to what you have to offer.

For the record,,, I DID read the post again,,, several times,,, You would prefer if I did not post here,,, I have a wealth of knowledge/events/experiences that I have not posted anywhere!! I have learned that being a know-it-all,,, turns more people off, than on! You have a lot to learn, Trainee Human... I love you anyways...

[Sebastion]

Jake, I would suggest that there is no one who is laughing with embarassment for you and if there are, well, it would be out of their own ignorance..

I have deliberately withheld from posting in this thread although I have kept up with it. I have come to realize that no two people will completely agree on spiritual matters for any number of reasons. There is no right way nor wrong way there is only your way...

Whether one calls it OBE, astral travel or spiritual traveling is of no real consequence in the end, especially if one is intent upon evolving to uncover the truth of all things. To wangle over fine or coarse is fruitless for mind cannot be used to seek something from mind. However the spirit can be used to seek spirit.

I have always enjoyed your posts and your enthusiasm, please my friend continue to post your episodes, etc regarding OBE...My best to you!

Posted by Jake (here)
Okay, I have slept on it. Folks, I love you all. I will not be a distraction on this thread again! The Out of Body experience is not just a passing fancy for me. I have been on the front lines for many years. Bill Buhlman and I have had conversations about it,, Same with other 'pioneers' in this discovery!! All I am looking for is truth...

Hi, Jake. As Eram points out, I wasn't inviting or suggesting that you shouldn't make posts here. I don't have control over what posts anyone makes anyway. I do, however, reserve the right to have my own opinion, based on my own limited experience. Similarly, teradactyl has made many posts on all sorts of things, and many of them have been quite brilliant, and very helpful to everyone.

Yes, so do I,,, even if others are laughing with embarassement for me.... I respect your commitment to what you have to offer.

For the record,,, I DID read the post again,,, several times,,, You would prefer if I did not post here,,, I have a wealth of knowledge/events/experiences that I have not posted anywhere!! I have learned that being a know-it-all,,, turns more people off, than on! You have a lot to learn, Trainee Human... I love you anyways...

[Eram]

So....

Now that the yesterdays thunderstorm has passed (at least for now),
I'd like to take the chance to apologize, if my words of the last 2 posts have in any way or form have hurt anybody.

Maybe it is time for a little humor, 'Eckhart Tolle style' to break the tension...

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=gPstEm-x2GU

[Chester]

Hi Ray - some extremely strange (and positive it seems) things have been going on of late... just letting you know I have not thrown you under the bus (yet! haha). I hope you haven't given up on me either.
Best Regards Chester

Yes - is very OBE related

[Chester]

What you fight, you become... what you become you transform... and if not it consumes you.
jom

that was a fast thanks Ray...

I have been getting sick and tired of being consumed - haha

Anyways, I think I encountered Ray in the astral.... and well, Ray is a self professed "rescuer" so you folks get the idea, eh?

I am certain there was a "deep reaching down."

[Finefeather]

Posted by justoneman (here)
Hi Ray - some extremely strange (and positive it seems) things have been going on of late... just letting you know I have not thrown you under the bus (yet! haha). I hope you haven't given up on me either.
Best Regards Chester

Yes - is very OBE related

Hi Dear Chester...old friend !
What bus? you threw me under a freight train loaded with riddles

Looking forward to your story and hope you remind me when and where you post it...been going off for days lately...always searching.

You will always be in my heart
Love to you
Ray

[Chester]

Posted by Finefeather (here)

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
Of course, Ron, once one gets to the point of knowing through experience that physical reality is some type of illusion, then it loses any "prison" significance whatsoever. In such a state of knowing, playing the physical game can be rather like watching a movie, where it's fun to be really frightened, say, as a fun activity to do.

Hi TH and All
Are you suggesting here that the physical 3D world is an illusion?
You say..."physical reality is some type of illusion"...now this in itself is contradictory...but to suggest that the 3D world is an illusion is in itself an illusion...or rather a gross misunderstanding of the facts of consciousness as well as matter. You speak of physical reality but what you are saying is that it really is physical illusion.
I would suggest we ask someone who has just run into a wall, how much of an illusion it was

This concept, which originates from Indian philosophy, and is now been 'sold' as fact, by the many gurus around the Western world, who copied it from the Indians is nothing more than ignorance of the dimensions of the cosmos...and the constitution of the Beings who inhabit it.

The physical world is as real as any other of the 49 levels in our cosmos...they are each just very different in terms of form and consciousness.
The reason why most cannot understand this is simply because of the source of the information they have chosen to 'enlighten' themselves with.
Just because we have had an OBE or some other subjective experience does not prove that physical is illusion...it should prove to us that physical is another dimension...with it's own qualities...which we are experiencing objectively at this point in our evolution.

The only reason why I do not recommend OBE at an early stage of development is because the casual OB experience is usually a journey into confusion.
There is not one human on this planet who can understand the OB world unless, or until, you are guided and trained by your Augoeides...And, this will only happen when each is ready for such...until then OBs are nothing more than a journey into subjectivity. Those who have had previous life experience, under correct circumstances, will also understand higher dimensions to the point which they have reached up to the present.

It is an illusion if anyone thinks they are some highly evolved Being here on earth...if they were...they would know it a long time ago.

The other point I would like to make is that IMO the entire story about our Higher Self or Higher Mind...as is been misunderstood by most here...is the biggest stumbling block of the failure to come to grips with how we should approach life.

But this is only my opinion and it is up to each to examine what each gets out of any story they may read or may be told...the only truth is that objectivity is the only way we can grow...there is no other way...everything else is temporary subjectivity and thus illusion.

Because we cannot understand the matter aspect of life...which is present in all the 49 dimensions...we think that the physical world is so different. But this is ONLY because we do not understand the higher dimensions...objectively...yet. Once we do...and this can take many many incarnations we will have a completely different understanding of what reality is...because reality is one thing only...and nothing else...it is objective consciousness. Until we are trained to be objectively conscious in higher dimensions we will always have the impression that the physical world is an illusion...simply because our emotional and or our mental faculties are not yet fully developed.

We are not nearly ready to arrange the celebration party, which we so ignorantly think we are so close to. We are babies compared to some who have attained higher consciousness. The average human is still largely driven by animal instincts and when we think we are more advanced...we simply have no idea of how far we are still from Causal Consciousness...let alone Cosmic Consciousness...do you at this point even know who you really are?...when you do...you will be getting closer.

Take care and my love
Ray

Inside physicality, it is real.

Outside physicality, because I realize I created it and thus know how it works and how to manipulate it, I see it as an illusion.

So, to me, both points of view are correct as long as we retain context when stating either.

This same process applies to any paradigm within which one finds themselves. You can step outside it and it becomes an illusion. At least, this is my experience. Works every time. Note, I so often fight my realms which results in me being trapped within them and in these cases they seem all too real.

Yet, when I get tired of being consumed by a particular realm, I transcend it by seeing what it is not, stepping outside of it to the new place which encompasses it and not it and I see that as a new realm. This is the concept of holons by the way - see Ken Wilber for better understanding.

For me, the realms of peace and tranquility become boring, so I often dive back into my various illusions. Something suggests to me that as I mature, I may chose to dive in less and less.

[Chester]

Posted by Eram (here)

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
It continues to be surprising and embarrassing to me that teradatyl and Jake continue to post about such things here. I don’t know why they don’t post such material in a thread such as The Secret Of The Soul instead – which I’d certainly prefer.

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
Hi, Jake. As Eram points out, I wasn't inviting or suggesting that you shouldn't make posts here.

Perhaps we misread then, or perhaps you have some distinction in mind that we missed?

such material, meaning... techniques to get OBE from Buhlman and others who use NLP-like and self hypnoses-like techniques to get there.
As I read it, it wasn't a hint to stop posting in this thread any more.

On the other hand it would take a very detached person to read such a comment with his/her name in it, without taking offense....

This subject is imo the one subject where you (TH) seem to have strong feelings about and to me it seems that it somewhat prevents an open discussion about it.
It's such an important issue to all who seek to get OBE and/or spiritual growth so I would like to discuss the whole subject in greater detail so we can all get to get a better understanding about it.

The main reason why I left this thread is because TH interpreted my dreams, did so wrongly and did it without asking my permission. BUT! Its his thread.

[Orph]

Posted by Finefeather (here)

Thought creates form which creates consciousness.

Form is what creates consciousness and without form consciousness would not exist.

Crap. I thought it was the other way around. I'm all mixed up. I thought consciousness created form.

It's been said that "spirit" has a tough time getting into these dense physical bodies. And here I am trying to get the heck out. No wonder I'm so lost and confused. One part of me is trying to have an OBE while another part of me is trying to have an IBE.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Posted by Orph (here)

Posted by Finefeather (here)

Thought creates form which creates consciousness.

Form is what creates consciousness and without form consciousness would not exist.

Crap. I thought it was the other way around. I'm all mixed up. I thought consciousness created form.

It's been said that "spirit" has a tough time getting into these dense physical bodies. And here I am trying to get the heck out. No wonder I'm so lost and confused. One part of me is trying to have an OBE while another part of me is trying to have an IBE.

I'm with you Orph. I strongly suspect that consciousness and energy create form.