Moderation, censorship and protectionism.

[RMorgan]

Hey folks,

I´m writing this post with all due respect I have for Bill and the moderation team, but I can´t ignore and be complacent with wrong attitudes.

Our colleague, EYES WIDE OPEN, posted an article of clear prejudiced, ignorant and homophobic nature, so we could discuss and express our opinions about it.

The article itself was biased, which means that, beyond any doubt, it reflects the personal opinion of the author. Of course, the article itself was a critique, and critiques are inevitably personal.

Well, first of all, whenever a journalist writes a personal article, reflecting his personal view, he must assume responsibility over it and its consequences. It´s his opinion, as it reflects what he thinks as an individual, after all.

Going straight to the point. Our colleague posted the article for our appreciation and criticism. The absolutely ridiculous content, naturally, didn´t generate very positive feedback, though.

Then, the moderation, feeling offended because the author of the article is someone of their esteem, quickly changed the title to "..ad hominem attack.." and definitively locked the thread later on.

The problem is that, if fair criticism towards an article that reflects the personal points of view of the author can be considered an ad hominem attack, then you´re automatically forbidden to criticize 90% of articles and books out there.

This is an argumentative fallacy. It´s not an ad hominem attack when you criticize any article that happens to reflect the author´s opinion. Period. Simply because, in such cases, it´s impossible to criticize one without automatically criticizing the other.

An ad hominem attack is when you try to invalidate the content by ridiculing the author. This is not the case here, where the content of the article was actually ridiculous, and since it reflects the mindset of the author because the article is about his opinion, it inevitably leads us to conclude that the mind behind the opinion is utterly ignorant. There´s no way to disassociate one from another.

To conclude, I´d like to respectfully state that this was an act of censorship, protectionism and consequently an act of manipulation, when someone is deliberately filtering information in order to artificially shield the reputation of someone of their personal preferences.

If that article, and it´s criticism, was an ad hominem attack, it was the author who did it to himself. He´s an adult, a professional, and should think twice before speaking nonsense. His reputation is his responsibility.

Well, I know this thread itself probably wont last long, or will be moved to the oblivious corners of the forum, but I absolutely insist on stating my opinion.

Most of the times, the moderation team and Bill do a very good and reasonable work in managing this place, but not this time.

As a side note, it simply makes no sense to censor this article around here, since the author itself has published it in his own website. If you don´t want the whole world to see the asshole that he really is, then you should email him asking him to remove it.

If his horrible article affects his credibility, then it´s exclusively his fault. There´s nothing you can do to shield his insane opinions from the world´s judgment.

I love you guys, but you´re wrong.

With all due respect,

Raf.

[Bill Ryan]

------

Hi, Raf:

It's absolutely fine to start a thread and discuss the topic of homophobia in our society, in other cultures, how it's manifested (or not) throughout history, and the various reactions to all of the above. I think that would be very interesting, and I would support it.

[Anchor]

What happened with the closing of that thread is not censorship (the thread is visible).

Issues like this are baited hooks for forums like this one.

[WhiteFeather]

Raf: IMO The thread was a train wreck from the get-go when it left the station. Again Its My Opinion. It could of lead to some incredible mud slinging's and casualties to its members of Avalon. To safeguard the members, i feel Bill did the right thing to Pull It! It could of gotten ugly, thats what i picked up from it anyhow. I could be wrong.

[RMorgan]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
------

Hi, Raf:

It's absolutely fine to start a thread and discuss the topic of homophobia in our society, in other cultures, how it's manifested (or not) throughout history, and the various reactions to all of the above. I think that would be very interesting, and I would support it.

Hey Bill,

This isn´t about homophobia itself. It´s about mislabeling, censoring and locking a thread to artificially try to shield someone else´s reputation, to exempt him from his own responsibilities and consequences of his actions.

Frankly, the same sex marriage stuff is pretty simple. I can´t even understand why people still debate it. People have the right to love, be loved, and be happy. That´s it. Equal rights mean equal rights. Period.

I could never understand homophobia itself, because honestly, I judge a person by his or her character and I couldn´t care less about his or her sexual orientation. It´s none of my business.

What´s there to discuss about homosexuality or same sex marriage? Nothing...I´ll leave this debate for the hateful and ignorant.

Raf.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by RMorgan (here)
This isn´t about homophobia itself. It´s about mislabeling, censoring and locking a thread to artificially try to shield someone else´s reputation, to exempt him from his own responsibilities and consequences of his actions.

That's not why we moved, retitled and closed that thread.

But there's no sense in my attempting to say why we did that again. Several people have tried that already, to no avail, including just above.

If you could, please, at least quit misrepresenting our motives.

[RMorgan]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by RMorgan (here)
This isn´t about homophobia itself. It´s about mislabeling, censoring and locking a thread to artificially try to shield someone else´s reputation, to exempt him from his own responsibilities and consequences of his actions.

That's not why we moved, retitled and closed that thread.

But there's no sense in my attempting to say why we did that again. Several people have tried that already, to no avail, including just above.

If you could, please, at least quit misrepresenting our motives.

Paul,

I´m sure you know I´m a reasonable man.

As soon as you´re able to objectively and clearly explain your reasons to qualify that thread as an ad hominem attack, I will then be able to interpret your actions the way you want them to be interpreted.

So far, as far as I can understand, your premise for labeling it like you did is absolutely flawed, but I keep my mind open to the possibility of being convinced of the contrary.

As far as I can see, if that same article was written by someone else you didn´t personally care about, you wouldn´t interfere. It means that your personal bias is interfering with your work as a moderator, which opens a serious precedent.

Please, don´t take this as personal. It´s not. It´s my opinion and I stand by it until convinced otherwise.

Posted by WhiteFeather (here)
...To safeguard the members, i feel Bill did the right thing to Pull It! It could of gotten ugly, thats what i picked up from it anyhow. I could be wrong.

Hey my friend,

What I don´t get is: To safeguard the members from what? From realizing that the author is totally ignorant and narrow minded, and has absolutely no condition of assuming the role of opinion leader? From realizing that he´s a moralist right-wing extremist whose ideals are half an inch close to fascism? From realizing that, in his opinion, only those who share his opinions and moral principles deserve freedom?

Cheers,

Raf.

[SilentFeathers]

It's interesting watching the very fabric of a once somewhat stable society come apart at the hinges and basically self destruct over the most idiotic reasons the mind can comprehend......contradictions at every turn and ridiculous hypocritical political and moral correctness within almost every topic mentioned recently,

Raf, grab a cold drink and kick back and watch the world come unglued with me....there's really not much more we can do when logic, reason, and common sense reaches extinction.

[mojo]

I can understand how others felt in wanting to defend the character of an individual sharing intimate/confidential knowledge, and felt this way about Dr Greer (some accusations are even more suspect now, ie. Mr Webre calling Antonio mind controlled) the same as Greer. Accusations on Greer were allowed to persist and they were not called ad hominem attacks and wonder how the Hagman thread was different?

[mosquito]

Posted by SilentFeathers (here)
It's interesting watching the very fabric of a once somewhat stable society come apart at the hinges and basically self destruct over the most idiotic reasons the mind can comprehend......contradictions at every turn and ridiculous hypocritical political and moral correctness within almost every topic mentioned recently,

Raf, grab a cold drink and kick back and watch the world come unglued with me....there's really not much more we can do when logic, reason, and common sense reaches extinction.

You said it !!!!!!!!!!

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by mojo (here)
Accusations on Greer were allowed to persist and they were not called ad hominem attacks and wonder how the Hagman thread was different?

The 'charges' against Greer were:

1. That he was lying about the ETs' benevolence, about abductions, and about what the US involvement with the ETs was.
2. That he had been involved in illegal activities.

None of (1) or (2) above applies to Hagmann, or to any other alternative media writer/ speaker/ researcher than I'm aware of - whether I personally like them or not. There's no comparison to be made.

[norman]

I don't yet know if this thread is supposed to be about the mechanics of keeping a forum running or about homosexuals.

If it's about the forum mechanics, I'm bored with them popping up every so often and ending up with a few bannings followed by a quiet spell where nothing much happens.

If it's about homosexuals, the thread title should be changed to something more on target and then we can all pile in some very frank opinions that I'm sure we all need to get out into the open.

It's not just about opinions and tolerance either. There is science and conspiracy theory about this stuff too.

I'm knackered right now and just heading for bed but I hope the discussion on this thread goes somewhere worthwhile.

[Sierra]

It's funny ... someone can say, " A very important aspect of those goals focuses on breaking down all cultural standards of morality, including the promotion of all forms of homosexuality, promiscuity and degeneracy as “normal and healthy.”

So ... the abuse and rape of women (1 in 4) and children, the pedophilia running rampant (1 in 5 or 1 in 3 depending on who is talking), the CIA drug running, the jailing and murder of our nonwhite population, the corruption of our courts, the violence in our civil police force, the formation of an internal paramilitary get ... 'ardly ever mentioned.

How come are men so hung up on dicks? The big picture guys, the big picture...

Sierra

[TigaHawk]

Just a note that's kinda relevant. I'm 27, only just managed to come out of the closet a month ago. Why so long? My parents threw me out when i tried explaining that to them when i was 17, last at night when it was pissing down rain with nothing but the clothes on my back and told me not to come back untill i had it "out of my system". From that point on in my head i thought there was something wrong with me, and got this far by putting that part of myself in a box, which ends out you cant just put a part of yourself in a box without putting alot of other parts of yourself into that box with it.

Took the help of a new found tinfoil-hat friend at my new job and a referral to a totally unconventional psychotherapist (two sessions! very powerfull!) before everything clicked and fell into place.

Tho im now comfortable with my new found self it can still be uncomfortable because of what society and general attitude of other people. I have to be carefull about it in the workplace, purely because i've heard very homophobic outburss from colleagues that i have to work with, my life could be made very miserable by them.

The attitude is similar to that of units and body corporate and pets. Most units are simply no pets allowed. Why? Because a few people that have the power to make decisions purely dont like the idea of it, they think that pets are dirty, loud and would cause disturbance.

I have my cat with me in my unit, long before an old fella with alot of cash bought a unit and moved in with his small dog. They tried to tell him otherwise, he took them to court. Body corporate lost very badly, and were told flat out they cant deny pets for no good reason. When it became official i put through the paperwork for my cat, he's now registered as living with me formally because it's ok. But there was no odor, noise or disturbance from him ever - but purely if they had of known about him... there would suddenly be those issues. Relates perfectly with the topic of Homosexual's.

[Beren]

If we ever want to grow as humanity we would have to be totally honest to what we think or say or do.

I stopped following many alternative news just because what overall they continually say is negativeness. I don`t mean that they aren`t right in some cases but they are exclusively concentrating of "all hell breaking loose" and such, they all also sell something be it gold, silver ,beans , vitamins or ammo and DVD as bonus features as how to survive...

I am over this.

But here and there we find a real treasure in alternative views upon the world and real news.

We should appreciate this. We should grow up.

Same is with homosexuality ( beng honest). In our cores we all are souls - spirits - sexless.

But in bodies we come as male or female. Who knows why some soul chose to experience something in this life?
We should not judge but we should also not close our eyes to what`s obvious.

A homosexual couple cannot naturally produce offspring (thus give the opportunity to a new soul to come here).
They can use ovums and sperm with other people but they themselves cannot do anything.

This is a telling sign. Very often homosexual men and women are way out of the balance in their emotional life and everyday life WHICH makes them a perfect target for exploit by corporations who make money on them , by dark entities who suck their life energy so greedily and readily (a sugar candy for the dark ones - the emotionally unstable person).

But deep inside we are all one. And defining our selves with our sexuality be it hetero or homo is actually decreasing ourselves into realms of body only where we are slipping away from spiritual unity into chaos of the world.

Remember you are not straight or gay, hetero or homosexual. You are a soul of God.
Stop lowering yourself according to the world desire, according to the someone else agenda.

When we raise in conscience we have no desire for sex of any kind. We have the desire for unity. Unity of holiness of souls. We don`t care then are you having a vagina or penis because we are above the bodily desires. And then and only then having sex is a sacred act.

You can`t be identified and proud homosexual and expect to grow in consciousness.
You can`t be identified and proud heterosexual and expect to grow in consciousness.

If you identify in any of the categories in the sexual sense then you`re missing the point and actually align yourself with lower vibration of the body.
You`re free to do that but consequences are that you will go down in spirit and not up.

I know people who were both homo or hetero and who realized that they want to elevate themselves and not be identifies by sex.

So being totally honest must be our present choice, otherwise we`re stuck thinking that we aren`t.

And lastly, whenever one wants to stir the pot and draw attention elsewhere - one chooses very taboo topic and voila! Humans forget what they were talking about in the first place.

I trust Bill`s decision was right. As for Paul, he as moderator may change things as any of them can, that`s the rule of the forum. But so far I didn`t notice in my whole time on Avalon that they were acting as censors.

Maybe I am wrong and I stand to be corrected but let`s face it people, quit the pettiness and actually grow.

[Dennis Leahy]

Just doodling on the prison walls but hey, it's no wonder that TPTB (especially in the US) keep using gender, genitalia (and who wants which kind) as a hot-button issue! They have done their homework, and know that anything to do with sex and sexuality is just like smacking the hornets nest.

Wade Frazier likes to use the phrase that Godzilla rarely ever has to lift a claw. Now that the divisive sex-based memes have taken such deep root, TPTB don't ever have to do anything more about it - we do it to ourselves. Though, I suspect they sometimes push that button just because it is so much fun to see us light up like a Roman candle.

Raf, it will be generations before we (ALL of us) gain enough maturity and compassion to become tolerant of sexual (and racial) issues that so easily divide us now. If the world religions remain (especially Christianity and Islam), we may never achieve anything higher than "tolerance." Many many people have sexual and racial baggage. Let's call it "douchebaggage." I can see your point, but I can also see Bill's point - and at this moment on Earth this particular guy isn't important for his douchebaggage, but he may be very important for the "insider" information coming through him. We weren't lucky enough to have this info come through someone with less douchebaggage, or even no douchebaggage at all. His un-Christian, intolerant, homophobic rant has been noted. We won't "fix" him - he can only fix himself, and only if he wants to. He is not a moral leader, but may have some valuable 'insider' insights.

Dennis

[Another1]

I helped a young man last year who was trying to adjust to himself. He (told me that) was being beaten on a regular basis in a small town and had been dis-owned by all family. I offered him 3 months of total peace, freedom from harm, no hassles. At his request, I kept his secret about being gay.

It was my observation during this time that he was torturing himself. The people here welcomed him with open arms. He had more friends than me in a very short time and when he finally decided to 'out' himself to the new friends, they all laughed and said they knew all along. I could not have conciously planned a better welcoming for him if I had tried, yet he continued to torture himself.

He gained total acceptance and support, a real job and was dating without fear of being beaten. His dates were welcome in my home though I really did not care for all the facebook 'friend' requests to come of being on his friends list *g. In the end, to the dismay of all of us, he tortured himself into going back to the other world where he was overtly abused on a daily basis.

I ran into this once long ago in a factory. Of 50 employees on my night shift, 4 were gay women who were adament they were being harrassed and treated differrently. I was their supervisor, gave them good performance reports and raises because they were good employees. They got in our face regular like about being gay. It was playfully insitgated on their part most of the time and I honestly do not remember any real problems. This led to me making the bold statement, if the company is trying to fire you for being gay, I will defend you. Enter laugh track here: These ladies took the report to the president, got a handsome severence package in return for promise not to bring action later and I was fired for disloyalty to the company. I had attorneys laughing at me for a week over that one.

I look forward to the politicians and activists getting board with this bandwagon. It's setting people at odds with themselves and others who could be allies.

[gripreaper]

Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
Just doodling on the prison walls but hey, it's no wonder that TPTB (especially in the US) keep using gender, genitalia (and who wants which kind) as a hot-button issue! They have done their homework, and know that anything to do with sex and sexuality is just like smacking the hornets nest.

Wade Frazier likes to use the phrase that Godzilla rarely ever has to lift a claw. Now that the divisive sex-based memes have taken such deep root, TPTB don't ever have to do anything more about it - we do it to ourselves. Though, I suspect they sometimes push that button just because it is so much fun to see us light up like a Roman candle.

Dennis

AND the Supreme Court has nothing better to do but adjudicate whether certain unions want to grant the "State" the right to contract and to abdicate their freedoms by demanding the right to enter into a contract with the State, subjecting the union to all the statutory rules and regulations of the State, based on some illusory and non existent benefits, other than taxation, which is voluntary!

The whole debacle is so convoluted and misguided, its utterly amazing to me regardless of the insanity of gender preference and sexuality.

[Bubu]

This is an argumentative fallacy. It´s not an ad hominem attack when you criticize any article that happens to reflect the author´s opinion. Period. Simply because, in such cases, it´s impossible to criticize one without automatically criticizing the other.

The wording below clearly does not apply to the article but the author

man is simply utterly ignorant and incapable of independent and unbiased thinking.

If anything I see in this is baited hook, oh yes that's correct Anchor. why insist on discussing a topic that is next to useless anyway.

watch out friends

Thanks Bill and the mod team for that action

[RMorgan]

Posted by nature (here)
This is an argumentative fallacy. It´s not an ad hominem attack when you criticize any article that happens to reflect the author´s opinion. Period. Simply because, in such cases, it´s impossible to criticize one without automatically criticizing the other.

The wording below clearly does not apply to the article but the author

man is simply utterly ignorant and incapable of independent and unbiased thinking.

...Which is a simple logical conclusion based on his own stated opinions.

As I said before, there´s no separation between author and content in articles that reflect personal opinions.

If his personal opinion is ignorant, prejudiced and biased, then he´s consequently ignorant, prejudiced and biased as a person.

Therefore, it´s not an ad hominem attack, but simply an inevitable direct connection.

Well, let alone his other opinions about other pretty relevant matters for his working field, like that way he´s always and repeatedly using the word Marxism and Socialism to mislead his readers into thinking that, using his own words, there´s a "Marxist takeover of America" happening right now, while in fact, what´s truly happening is exact the contrary.

That´s quite interesting, actually...Almost all his articles include at least one instance of the term Marxist, Communist or Socialist, always associated with completely opposed things...That´s something to think about as well.

As a journalist who writes about politics and economics, the way he´s constantly misleading his audience naturally leads me to believe that either he´s ignorant on such matters, which I doubt, or he´s doing it deliberately.

The way I perceive it, he´s a right-wing extremist pushing his own agenda, painting everyone who goes against his ideals either as communists or perverts.

Now, personally, I don´t know what kind of "insider" would choose a man like this as his spokesman, but I imagine he´s got at least some ideological affinity with him, which does put certain things in perspective.

Anyway, since I started talking, I´ll go on and repeat that so far, there´s nothing special about his so called insider; Like usual, all he´s always saying is that this or that is about to happen, that collapse is just around the corner, and nothing really happens. Looks to me like fear porn at its best.

You guys Americans should be extra careful...Think about the general message that this man spreads through his articles, then think if that´s the future you want to build for your nation. He might be the enemy of your enemy, but it doesn´t mean he´s your ally...

Your "mainstream" alternative media is gradually turning itself into a very dangerous kind of media of extremist character...You might want to ask why, at some point.

Raf.