Japan nuclear agency upgrades Fukushima alert level

[TargeT]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by buares (here)
The thing I always look for in these stories is the radiation exposure in millirems

Any idea what millirems we're risking from Fukushima?

I entirely agree that the fear mongering over radiation is excessive, as you so well document. But I also agree with others that radiation can be sickening or deadly. "The dose makes the poison." (Paracelsus, 1500's).

My wildly uninformed guess would be however that (1) many workers around Fukushima have received serious doses, (2) much sea life in the flows coming from there are starting to receive serious doses, and (3) if they lose control of Fukushima and she goes critical, then much of Japan, the northern Pacific and western parts of the Americas will be unsafe.

This is all that is being discussed in my mind... we need to define WHAT level of radiation is bad, and what is "safe" (or as many examples have shown... "good")


people are slipping into the very human mode of dichotomy here, as if someone who doesn't agree with you is instantly the complete polar opposite and is speaking in extremes.


what is trying to be brought to light by a few others and myself is that low levels of radiation, just like aspirin or water or arsenic or anything in the world really, are good for you.

and we are trying to show that we have some understanding of what those levels are.



I thought it was a quite simple concept, but clearly it's not & other than sounding like a broken record I'm not sure how to bring this information to the public realm.


as for the conversion to mRems I've posted many conversion charts and readings from ***.

Here's some helpful info on REM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roentgen_equivalent_man

Looks like fukushima has around 10,000 mrem exposure (or 490,000 rem lower than some people are exposed to just by living in their house).

[Atlas]

As per my calculations, if the exposure in Fukushima is 10,000 mrem, then this is equivalent to:

• 1% of the lethal dose
• 66 abdomen X-rays
• 117 times the average yearly radiation from natural sources
• risk of dying from cancer is increased by about 1 chance in 400
• a reduction in life expectancy by nearly 14 days

[Atlas]

Notice:

• Collective dose estimates are about 800-1800 person-Sv to most affected population, and perhaps several times that to greater surrounding population
• Chernobyl ~255,000 person-Sv

• Deaths due to earthquake/tsunami: ~25,000
• Deaths or serious injuries due to direct radiation exposures: 0

• Cancer deaths due to accumulated radiation exposures: can’t be ruled out – conservative risk estimates ~100s cases, against an expected ~10 million cases
• At this level, projected increase in cancer mortality would be ~0.001% above the natural rate

[Atlas]

Radioactive levels are very low in these tuna

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Q2EEgqVZVnc

[panopticon]

Posted by TargeT (here)
This is all that is being discussed in my mind... we need to define WHAT level of radiation is bad, and what is "safe" (or as many examples have shown... "good")

people are slipping into the very human mode of dichotomy here, as if someone who doesn't agree with you is instantly the complete polar opposite and is speaking in extremes.

what is trying to be brought to light by a few others and myself is that low levels of radiation, just like aspirin or water or arsenic or anything in the world really, are good for you.

and we are trying to show that we have some understanding of what those levels are.

I largely agree with this.
There is much to much uninformed commentary coming from the media and being hyped by vested interests.

While I don't agree with the hypothesis presented by some that "all radiation is good for you" I have read too many reports on the possible benefits of low dose hormesis to say "all radiation is bad for you". Indeed there is some evidence that low dose, low duration beta radiation may be beneficial when applied externally in some cases.

I am not saying that a low dose continual or high duration is beneficial for someone (I reported the ~20mSv per annum long term finding of workers in the nuclear industry previously as a threshold for increased incidents of various cancers, cataracts and leukaemia in another thread) or that any form of internal ingestion by someone is "good" for them. Indeed most ingested material has been shown to move through the body (70% from memory) quite quickly with most of the remaining material leaving the body within a week. While certain isotopes may concentrate in bone marrow, organs, fatty tissue, etc. their levels are dependant on the type and quantity of material ingested.

I don't think that this is as simple as coming up with a figure value so as 'to define WHAT level of radiation is bad, and what is "safe"'. This is largely dependent on individual circumstance, age, state of health, radiation source, radiation type etc. For example the number of Thyroid cancers increased in persons up to the age of 30 in the Chernobyl fallout range (I need to find the source but am too busy at the moment to dig it out), but had little effect on those over this age. From memory this was dependent on the youth of a person being more susceptible to the mutagenic properties of the I-131 ingested.

The Fukushima accident is not as bad as the Chernobyl accident.

The Fukushima accident is largely isolated to the region surrounding the facility.

However, it is important to remember that TEPCO never tells the truth and we have no idea as to the real quantity of radioactive material (water) leaked, it's contents, whether it has leaked into the ocean or was largely absorbed into the soil, or the uptake potential of the contaminants within the wider food chain (caesium -> plankton -> fish -> humans or seals).

The Fukushima accident has the potential to be much worse if suitable containment operations are not implemented soon.

Yes, we must stop the fear mongery by careful evaluation and analysis of information that is available to us. TEPCO down plays or just plain lies (they have a long history of this) so we have no idea what is actually going on. Here is the link for the TEPCO media handouts on the Fukushima Plant:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushi...s/index-e.html

I watched a UN report the other day in which the speaker detailed how TEPCO had changed the radiation detectors they used in effected zones around Fukushima because the IAEA sanctioned detectors where reporting higher detection rates than they wanted...

Maybe we should be discussing the ineptitude(?) of TEPCO and the potential danger that Fukushima presents if there is a further "incident" at the site?
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[TargeT]

Posted by panopticon (here)

I don't think that this is as simple as coming up with a figure value so as 'to define WHAT level of radiation is bad, and what is "safe"'.

Your right, absolute statements should not be used (ie all radiation at low level is safe for everyone) but we can empirically say that there clearly is a "safe" level of radiation, as we are exposed to radiation our entire life without stop & only through accidental increases in exposure (or rather, unplanned increased exposure) have we seen that radiation is very good for people; further testing is definitely needed.

But from what I have seen, (accidental exposure vrs studies that radiation is bad for you) there is a heavily lopsided amount of evidence that radiation is good for you at low levels, and nothing really that says otherwise.

Posted by panopticon (here)
The Fukushima accident has the potential to be much worse if suitable containment operations are not implemented soon.

most certainly true, HOWEVER, it would still be a localized event; not "global death" that some are saying it could be.

Posted by panopticon (here)
I watched a UN report the other day in which the speaker detailed how TEPCO had changed the radiation detectors they used in effected zones around Fukushima because the IAEA sanctioned detectors where reporting higher detection rates than they wanted...

Maybe we should be discussing the ineptitude(?) of TEPCO and the potential danger that Fukushima presents if there is a further "incident" at the site?
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

if nothing else this situation is a good example of how a greed based system is NOT conducive to this type of work; however neither is governmental (non-greed based); I think the conversation should be much broader, and should include the following questions:

Why are we not responsible for our own power production?

If (and it seems it is) radiation is good for you, why are we told that NO level of exposure is acceptable (even though we are exposed just by living)?

Why are all nuclear reactors based on the refinement and concentration of nuclear material, concentration that creates the only sources of dangerous radiation (what i mean is: refined uranium is used in breeder reactors for the fissile material, yet I am wearing uranium ore and it's not only safe, but healthy for me)?

Why are LFTR (Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors) not used? (they use naturally occurring thorium, it does not need to be purified and is very difficult to use in weapons creation; we had one running for over 5 years in the 1940's & it could use our current "nuclear waste" as fuel, reducing it to harmless levels)

And the ultimate question, that this entire topic centers around (in my mind):

Why is conceivably limitless, distributed (non-centrally controlled) energy being kept from the world?

[778 neighbour of some guy]

Why is conceivably limitless, distributed (non-centrally controlled) energy being kept from the world?

Because we STILL have oil and big money is made from it, fuel, plastic and its more exotic equivalents, drugs, paint and all the disgusting crap they sell to keep your life clean with ( check under kitchen sink for details).

Check out Maia's, prototype anti gravity flying car video thread, when real that is somewhat of a nice synchronicity, with huge implications.

[Cidersomerset]

1 September 2013 Last updated at 10:09




Fukushima radiation levels '18 times higher' than thoughtJapanese
Economy, Trade and Industry Minister Toshimitsu Motegi (2nd R-red helmet)
inspecting contamination water tanks Japanese Economy Minister
Toshimitsu Motegi inspected the site on Monday

Continue reading the main story
Related Stories
At the source of Fukushima's water Watch
Fukushima 'much worse' than reported
Q&A: Fukushima leak problems

Radiation levels around Japan's Fukushima nuclear plant are 18 times higher than
previously thought, Japanese authorities have warned.Last week the plant's
operator reported radioactive water had leaked from a storage tank into the ground.
It now says readings taken near the leaking tank on Saturday showed radiation was
high enough to prove lethal within four hours of exposure.

The plant was crippled by the 2011 earthquake and tsunami.

The Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) had originally said the radiation emitted
by the leaking water was around 100 millisieverts an hour. However, the company
said the equipment used to make that recording could only read measurements of
up to 100 millisieverts.The new recording, using a more sensitive device, showed a
level of 1,800 millisieverts an hour.

The new reading will have direct implications for radiation doses received by
workers who spent several days trying to stop the leak last week, the BBC's Rupert
Wingfield-Hayes reports from Tokyo.

In addition, Tepco says it has discovered a leak on another pipe emitting radiation
levels of 230 millisieverts an hour.

The plant has seen a series of water leaks and power failures.

The 2011 tsunami knocked out cooling systems to the reactors, three of which
melted down. The damage from the tsunami has necessitated the constant
pumping of water to cool the reactors.This is believed to be the fourth major leak
from storage tanks at Fukushima since 2011 and the worst so far in terms of
volume.

After the latest leak, Japan's nuclear-energy watchdog raised the incident level
from one to three on the international scale measuring the severity of atomic
accidents, which has a maximum of seven.

Experts have said the scale of water leakage may be worse than officials have
admitted.

Graphic showing the location of the pools of radioactive water found at the
Fukushima nuclear plant



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23918882

[gittarpikk]

Well a real clue to what the real danger level could be is possibly in my own experience as a radiation worker back in the early 90's for Duke power on the East coast

We were insulation workers /tradesmen and were hired during outages (plant repair /reload period of inactivity)

For about 2 weeks we played cards outside the gate while our security backgrounds were being checked and occsionally we had a class on plant ops , security and radiation .

In those classes....before we were actually allowed to be brought into the plant to work...we were told things about radiation including that yes in high levels it can damage your genes...but with protection (suits, cloths, masks, gloves and doscemetry --portable detection modules taped to your suit) and its proper wearing and tapiing all seames etc...that we would not pick up any radiation. We were 'allowed ' a certain amount of 'exposure' and tested by wand and/or beta machines at the end of each exposure to limit the actual exposure...and any physical contact with things like radioactive dust or water,

So if you got 'leaked on; by something like a tank valve and you had not properly donned your cotton suites, rubber gloves /boots etc...you could very well 'Crap Up'...which was the term used when you screwed up and took on radiation

this always resulted in meeting the RP (Radiation Protection) clean up team who were not very 'comfortable while they scrubbed your skin raw...and removed the offending rad dust from you before you were let outside the plant again

Sometimes duct tape, when rubbed down over an area that had contamination and pulled from the skin roughly would get it off...but sometimes it took many showers/cleaning to get you clean

I never 'Crapped up' once in my tenure of several outages..

but while there I understood and was told things the public is not aware of,,,

The whole RP thing is a huge overkill in the states.. to allow mega bucks to be charged to the public to keep things 'clean' and uncontaminated.

This includes huge storage facilities for even very slightly contaminated paper suits, gloves etc...as well as any tool /part that has been used and has a very slight trace of activity.

Radiation protection is a bureaucracy and mega godzillions are paid to create the circumstances to keep the 'public' clear of any 'contamination'...and that in reality it is much safer than the public is told/allowed to believe. I witnessed this by how little protection the 'RP' people wore when they did their checking inside the plant and protected areas (areas that had some radiation detected). Those areas has labels on the amount and location of hot spots for ll to see.

We , basically , were hired for our 'allowable' radiation exposure we could take as a human and were only allowed a certain amount per year... so we 'rented' our 'intake' to the company as a radiation skilled tradesman.

We also were made aware that in places like Japan, or other countries that they were seen many, many times with no protection at all...with no obvious effects of having been involved in radiation work.

However, our media, to create propaganda here in the states to keep the people scared, would search out any birth defects, etc and blow it up to huge proportions to make their points and keep that 'overkill' funding coming.

So it was told to us that we would never be exposed to any levels that could possibly hurt us in due to the overkill....and that the protection that other countries used was more appropriate for the actual exposure....but then again , they saved mega bucks uselessly spent on trivial protection....typical of third world countries.

So now we have had catastrophes at Fukushima.. and we see some things that our MSM have captured on video ...but its obvious they are not allowed inside the plant. My guess is they are walking around in it with little protection and their detectors are all set at only dangerous levels rather than the trivial amounts that our stateside detectors are set at.....but if the MSM gets info of the actual levels that are there...it seems WAAAAY to high...when in reality is safe...or maybe even just borderline on being dangerous...and if something gets dangerous...they do actually list an ' event' in their logs as required by the regulatory agencies.

Hope this helps to maybe understand what is actually dangerous....and what is media/bureaucracy fear mongering/bilking the population.

[gittarpikk]

A bit more about the bureaucracy was brought out by Paul Harvey about the asbestos industry back in the early 90's.

He exposed publicly the fact how the findings were skewed to exaggerate the danger of the asbestos dust... The old insulators worked in it all day, every day for years in dust you could cut with a knife and 'sometimes' developed a lung disease ...but that coal workers as well as any kind of dusty environment worker could develop these same diseases ..and simple common sense of a dust mask was all one really needed to prevent over exposure ..

I distinctly remember an instance where I went through an orientation from the Union Carbide (I think it was) plant about all the usual dust/danger training's and then put in a room with 30 insulators ...to be there for weeks . what was weird was it was so dusty that you could not breathe...and with no ventilation. I asked for a dusk mask ....(simple ) to wear and they would not issue it...and the explanation was they were OSHA illegal and all I could wear would be a full blown rubber face mask/filter system (called sucking rubber) and they did not have enough time allowed to train me for weeks and to issue my own mask..

Remember I was a radiation worker ,,,and had just finished a job in a nearby city in a nuclear plant with dust masks and training many degrees/levels above what is needed in just a dusty environment .. I did not need any sort of training as I was well over-trained . ...but I was becoming a hassle for the management by requesting a simple (illegal) dust mask and was told to just go home unless I wanted to work with no protection... well I left.

This is how business is 'handled' in the real world...zero common sense and 100% what the bureaucracies/corporations want so they can make tons of money off the public as a whole.... This is only a couple examples of what this whole corporate structure represents and I am sure there are thousands more very similar examples people can give of similar things in the health service, big pharma, DOT, Dept of defense, judicial, political...and the list goes on and on... sorry for the rant... but felt it needed to be stated

[panopticon]

Posted by Cidersomerset (here)
Radiation levels around Japan's Fukushima nuclear plant are 18 times higher than previously thought, Japanese authorities have warned.

It now says readings taken near the leaking tank on Saturday showed radiation was high enough to prove lethal within four hours of exposure.

The Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) had originally said the radiation emitted by the leaking water was around 100 millisieverts an hour. However, the company said the equipment used to make that recording could only read measurements of up to 100 millisieverts. The new recording, using a more sensitive device, showed a level of 1,800 millisieverts an hour.

The new reading will have direct implications for radiation doses received by workers who spent several days trying to stop the leak last week...

In addition, Tepco says it has discovered a leak on another pipe emitting radiation levels of 230 millisieverts an hour.

Experts have said the scale of water leakage may be worse than officials have
admitted.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23918882

Now TEPCO are reporting the main leak as being 1800 mSv per hour.
Just in case anyone missed it.

-- Pan

[Atlas]

August 4, 2013: Japan's first astronaut Toyohiro Akiyama:

"My biggest theme at the moment is to stop the restart of nuclear reactors in Japan."

"I stayed in the city of Koriyama, 60 km away from the Fukushima plant, until March 16 because I didn’t know what would happen to the Hamaoka nuclear power plant (in Shizuoka Prefecture, some 200 km southwest of Tokyo). If something had happened at Hamaoka (due to seismic activity), it would have caused a massive northbound exodus of people from Tokyo, which would have blocked the traffic. After I saw the Hamaoka operations were suspended, I moved to Gunma Prefecture, 200 km away from the (Fukushima) nuclear plant."

"I had read books on how the Japanese government has dealt with nuclear accidents in the past. When there’s an emergency, what the authorities try to do is to maintain “law and order.” What is order? It’s protecting the system presiding at the time. At the core of the government at the time of 3/11 were two lawyers — Chief Cabinet Secretary Edano and Vice-Chief Cabinet Secretary Sengoku — and a prime minister with an engineering background (Naoto Kan). What do lawyers do? They explore possibilities within the world of order. What does maintaining order mean to them? To maintain the order of the existing “nuclear village.”

My life goal is living long. Why? Because the longer you live, the more you will find that what you believed at one time proves to be completely false or that you’ll find you have been deceived. I used to follow U.S.-Japan relations and world affairs closely, particularly from 1984 to ’88 when I was stationed in Washington. The U.S. has a law that mandates its government to declassify foreign relations-related documents 30 years after they are created, which means that documents pertaining to the era I used to cover will start to be disclosed from 2014."

"After Gorbachev swept to power in 1985, he unilaterally carried out a series of disarmament efforts on the part of the Soviet Union, which culminated in the Malta Summit. I don’t have the time or resources to go to the U.S. National Archives in Washington, but there must be lots of academics waiting for the release of those documents. They are so important that they are sure to prompt researchers to write papers on them. I’ve always wanted to read and study such papers, and that’s why I decided later to retreat to the mountains of Fukushima Prefecture.

After I went into the mountains, I kept in contact with my sources, and I’ve heard intriguing things about U.S.-Soviet relations. There were two things the U.S. showed the greatest interest in when it held a series of disarmament talks with the then-USSR. One was the management of decommissioned nuclear weapons, including their dismantling. The other was the management of means by which such weapons are transported. What was really at stake, though, was (the fate of) the Soviet space-industry engineers. If the missile industry finished, America would be peaceful — but where would the jobless Soviet engineers go?"

"The scenes I saw from 400 km above the Earth. The diameter of the Earth is 13,000 km, so you can’t see the Earth in its entirety if you are only 400 km away. But what still struck me as impressive was the shining blue Earth, which looked like one form of life floating in the universe. At the same time, I was reminded of the thinness of the blue layer, which is the atmosphere. So it made me visually aware that the atmosphere is so thin, and such a thin atmosphere protects every living thing — forests, trees, fish, birds, insects, human beings and everything.

Also, I could see at a glance different time zones before my eyes — the zone where it was still in the afternoon, to the zone where dusk was approaching, to places where it was getting dark and ones in pitch darkness. It was like listening to an orchestra of colors, so to speak. As I watched the Earth from 400 km away, I looked back on the history of mankind and thought about the repetition of activities that helped us grow, to now number 7 billion people."

"What is the most basic human activity? Eating. I wondered how seriously I had thought about the act of eating, or growing things that we eat. How do farmers think about the food they grow? And what role has rice farming played in the history of Japan? I felt I couldn’t die without having some basic knowledge about these things. I guess I felt like one of the encyclopédistes.

Actually, it’s not possible to grow everything you eat. The other thing is, I have long known how society is polluted with synthetic, chemical substances. After witnessing the beauty of the Earth I made many TV programs on environmental issues, and have come to realize that our environment is protected by what cannot be exchanged for money and what is of no use to human beings."

Attachment 22616

"The old people are just thinking about stocks; most of them are brainwashed by the “order” side. And there are many people with no compass. In that sense, I feel there’s a place for education, and I find it rewarding to teach students, because most of them these days don’t read newspapers or watch TV, which are tools to brainwash people. Most of them check news on the Internet or they don’t at all.

That’s where my hopes are — teaching those who are free of the influence of the mass media; from zero. It might sound like I’m spitting in my own face — as I made a living in the media for 30 years — but I’m reflecting deeply on some of the horrible acts we have committed in the media — things which led people to lose their power to think for themselves and let others do their thinking.

You can’t be creative by letting others think for you. I think the act of farming — the experience of “listening” to the wind and the light through all of your senses, as well as smelling and feeling the earth — offers the opportunity for students, in the four months they spend in the fields, to get their brains rewired. It might not work for everyone, but it offers that chance."

Former astronaut Toyohiro Akiyama teaches
agriculture at Kyoto University of Art and Design.

[panopticon]

For those who are interested in Buares quotes a full transcript of the interview they are taken from is available here:
Cautionary tales from one not afraid to risk all
-- Pan

[Atlas]

Posted by panopticon (here)
For those who are interested in Buares quotes a full transcript of the interview they are taken from is available here:
Cautionary tales from one not afraid to risk all
-- Pan

Thank you panopticon, you can also click the last image of my post.

[panopticon]

Posted by buares (here)
Thank you panopticon, you can also click the last image of my post.

I noticed that, which was why I didn't ask for the source of the quotes.
-- Pan

[TargeT]

Wow, actual hands on first person testimony on a hotly debated topic and not a single 'thanks' or comment at all...?

Posted by gittarpikk (here)
Well a real clue to what the real danger level could be is possibly in my own experience as a radiation worker back in the early 90's for Duke power on the East coast

We were insulation workers /tradesmen and were hired during outages (plant repair /reload period of inactivity)

For about 2 weeks we played cards outside the gate while our security backgrounds were being checked and occsionally we had a class on plant ops , security and radiation .

In those classes....before we were actually allowed to be brought into the plant to work...we were told things about radiation including that yes in high levels it can damage your genes...but with protection (suits, cloths, masks, gloves and doscemetry --portable detection modules taped to your suit) and its proper wearing and tapiing all seames etc...that we would not pick up any radiation. We were 'allowed ' a certain amount of 'exposure' and tested by wand and/or beta machines at the end of each exposure to limit the actual exposure...and any physical contact with things like radioactive dust or water,

So if you got 'leaked on; by something like a tank valve and you had not properly donned your cotton suites, rubber gloves /boots etc...you could very well 'Crap Up'...which was the term used when you screwed up and took on radiation

this always resulted in meeting the RP (Radiation Protection) clean up team who were not very 'comfortable while they scrubbed your skin raw...and removed the offending rad dust from you before you were let outside the plant again

Sometimes duct tape, when rubbed down over an area that had contamination and pulled from the skin roughly would get it off...but sometimes it took many showers/cleaning to get you clean

I never 'Crapped up' once in my tenure of several outages..

but while there I understood and was told things the public is not aware of,,,

The whole RP thing is a huge overkill in the states.. to allow mega bucks to be charged to the public to keep things 'clean' and uncontaminated.

This includes huge storage facilities for even very slightly contaminated paper suits, gloves etc...as well as any tool /part that has been used and has a very slight trace of activity.

Radiation protection is a bureaucracy and mega godzillions are paid to create the circumstances to keep the 'public' clear of any 'contamination'...and that in reality it is much safer than the public is told/allowed to believe. I witnessed this by how little protection the 'RP' people wore when they did their checking inside the plant and protected areas (areas that had some radiation detected). Those areas has labels on the amount and location of hot spots for ll to see.

We , basically , were hired for our 'allowable' radiation exposure we could take as a human and were only allowed a certain amount per year... so we 'rented' our 'intake' to the company as a radiation skilled tradesman.

We also were made aware that in places like Japan, or other countries that they were seen many, many times with no protection at all...with no obvious effects of having been involved in radiation work.

However, our media, to create propaganda here in the states to keep the people scared, would search out any birth defects, etc and blow it up to huge proportions to make their points and keep that 'overkill' funding coming.

So it was told to us that we would never be exposed to any levels that could possibly hurt us in due to the overkill....and that the protection that other countries used was more appropriate for the actual exposure....but then again , they saved mega bucks uselessly spent on trivial protection....typical of third world countries.

So now we have had catastrophes at Fukushima.. and we see some things that our MSM have captured on video ...but its obvious they are not allowed inside the plant. My guess is they are walking around in it with little protection and their detectors are all set at only dangerous levels rather than the trivial amounts that our stateside detectors are set at.....but if the MSM gets info of the actual levels that are there...it seems WAAAAY to high...when in reality is safe...or maybe even just borderline on being dangerous...and if something gets dangerous...they do actually list an ' event' in their logs as required by the regulatory agencies.

Hope this helps to maybe understand what is actually dangerous....and what is media/bureaucracy fear mongering/bilking the population.

Posted by gittarpikk (here)
A bit more about the bureaucracy was brought out by Paul Harvey about the asbestos industry back in the early 90's.

He exposed publicly the fact how the findings were skewed to exaggerate the danger of the asbestos dust... The old insulators worked in it all day, every day for years in dust you could cut with a knife and 'sometimes' developed a lung disease ...but that coal workers as well as any kind of dusty environment worker could develop these same diseases ..and simple common sense of a dust mask was all one really needed to prevent over exposure ..

I distinctly remember an instance where I went through an orientation from the Union Carbide (I think it was) plant about all the usual dust/danger training's and then put in a room with 30 insulators ...to be there for weeks . what was weird was it was so dusty that you could not breathe...and with no ventilation. I asked for a dusk mask ....(simple ) to wear and they would not issue it...and the explanation was they were OSHA illegal and all I could wear would be a full blown rubber face mask/filter system (called sucking rubber) and they did not have enough time allowed to train me for weeks and to issue my own mask..

Remember I was a radiation worker ,,,and had just finished a job in a nearby city in a nuclear plant with dust masks and training many degrees/levels above what is needed in just a dusty environment .. I did not need any sort of training as I was well over-trained . ...but I was becoming a hassle for the management by requesting a simple (illegal) dust mask and was told to just go home unless I wanted to work with no protection... well I left.

This is how business is 'handled' in the real world...zero common sense and 100% what the bureaucracies/corporations want so they can make tons of money off the public as a whole.... This is only a couple examples of what this whole corporate structure represents and I am sure there are thousands more very similar examples people can give of similar things in the health service, big pharma, DOT, Dept of defense, judicial, political...and the list goes on and on... sorry for the rant... but felt it needed to be stated

Thanks a lot gittarpikk; for anyone that cares to find out the truth your contribution here is well noted.

[panopticon]

Posted by gittarpikk (here)
A bit more about the bureaucracy was brought out by Paul Harvey about the asbestos industry back in the early 90's.

He exposed publicly the fact how the findings were skewed to exaggerate the danger of the asbestos dust... The old insulators worked in it all day, every day for years in dust you could cut with a knife and 'sometimes' developed a lung disease ...but that coal workers as well as any kind of dusty environment worker could develop these same diseases ..and simple common sense of a dust mask was all one really needed to prevent over exposure ..

I distinctly remember an instance where I went through an orientation from the Union Carbide (I think it was) plant about all the usual dust/danger training's and then put in a room with 30 insulators ...to be there for weeks . what was weird was it was so dusty that you could not breathe...and with no ventilation. I asked for a dusk mask ....(simple ) to wear and they would not issue it...and the explanation was they were OSHA illegal and all I could wear would be a full blown rubber face mask/filter system (called sucking rubber) and they did not have enough time allowed to train me for weeks and to issue my own mask..

Remember I was a radiation worker ,,,and had just finished a job in a nearby city in a nuclear plant with dust masks and training many degrees/levels above what is needed in just a dusty environment .. I did not need any sort of training as I was well over-trained . ...but I was becoming a hassle for the management by requesting a simple (illegal) dust mask and was told to just go home unless I wanted to work with no protection... well I left.

This is how business is 'handled' in the real world...zero common sense and 100% what the bureaucracies/corporations want so they can make tons of money off the public as a whole.... This is only a couple examples of what this whole corporate structure represents and I am sure there are thousands more very similar examples people can give of similar things in the health service, big pharma, DOT, Dept of defense, judicial, political...and the list goes on and on... sorry for the rant... but felt it needed to be stated

G'day Gittarpikk,

As Target points out your posts on this topic are welcome.
I wasn't sure whether there had been a discussion already regards your posts due to the recent "troubles" and having been very busy this last week.

I have never heard of a Paul Harvey and can only think that (following a quick search) you are referring to a US media personality.

I am not an expert on the situation in the US in relation to asbestos however in Australia it is a major problem.

Just a quick note for those who aren't aware. I'm originally from Western Australia and have a family connection with the ex-Wittenoom mine. Mesothelioma is a horrible ways to die and I still have family and friends who undergo periodic checks due to extensive exposure on site.

I have no love for bureaucracy or private companies due in no small part to the treatment dished out by CSR to employees.

At Wittenoom even though the company knew the dangers of asbestos they still sold tailings to the residents who used them in their children's "sand pits".



Both of these children died from Mesothelioma in their 30's.

It is in relation to this that I point out the decision of what "mask" would be suitable protective gear is very complicated. Remember that 3M manufactured a mask that was found to not offer sufficient protection from small asbestos particulate matter (Model 8710). The more strict the guidelines the less likelihood of exposure.

It is good that the incidents of Coal Workers’ Pneumoconiosis (Black Lung) in the US coal mining industry has steadily dropped since 1968 (due in no small part to increased air filtration and improved mining practice) however incidents of Asbestosis over the same period has increased to a level higher than CWP in 2001 (due in part to the long incubation time associated with asbestos exposure). While it is still a low statistical figure I don't personally view that this is the right way to look at these horrific ways to die.





This data was accessed from the 'The Work-related Lung Disease Surveillance Report, 2002'.

BTW as far as I'm concerned you did the right thing to leave site and not work in a potentially hazardous environment. If management doesn't supply the appropriate gear, it's time for workers to exercise their right and withdraw their labour.

Well done!

I'm also right with you on Tepco and the Japanese nuclear agency not providing information on what is going on @ Fukushima. Imagine taking an instrument onsite and it peaks so they say that is the measurement! Come on. Now they say it's 18 times higher than the originally reported amount. Typical of Tepco though. "Private company cuts corners and lies to save money". Business as usual.

Kind Regards,
Panopticon

Sources:
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/de...904-25bkg.html
http://www.mesothelioma.com/asbestos...cturing-3m.htm
http://www.asbestos.com/blog/2011/09...with-asbestos/
http://solutions.3mindia.co.in/wps/p...glNPD7NT7GPLbl
http://www.australianasbestosnetwork...+News/874.aspx
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2003-1...s/2003-111.pdf

[panopticon]

From the BBC:

##################

Japan pledges $470m for Fukushima leaks



Japan is to invest hundreds of millions of dollars to stop leaks of radioactive water from the Fukushima nuclear plant.

Government spokesman Yoshihide Suga said an estimated 47bn yen ($473m, £304m) would be allocated to the project.

The leaks were getting worse and the government "felt it was essential to become involved to the greatest extent possible", Mr Suga said.

The plant was crippled by the 2011 earthquake and tsunami.

The disaster knocked out cooling systems to the reactors, three of which melted down.

Water is now being pumped in to cool the reactors, but storing the resultant large quantities of radioactive water has proved a challenge for plant operator Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco).

'Closely watching'
Under the government plan, a wall of frozen earth will be created around the reactors using pipes filled with coolant to prevent groundwater coming into contact with contaminated water being used to cool fuel rods.

Water treatment systems will also be upgraded to tackle the build-up of contaminated water, officials said.

The damage to the plant has necessitated the constant pumping of water to cool the reactors - a process which creates an extra 400 tonnes of contaminated water every day.

That water is being stored in temporary tanks at the site. Last month Tepco said that 300 tonnes of highly radioactive water had leaked from one of the tanks, in the most serious incident to date.


Satellite images show how the number of water storage tanks has increased in the past two years. The tanks store contaminated water that has been used to cool the reactors.

But in recent months there have also been leaks from pipes and there are concerns that water is seeping from damaged reactor buildings into the ground.

Last month, Japan's nuclear regulator classified the severity level of radioactive water leak issues at Fukushima as a three on the seven-point International Nuclear and Radiological Event Scale (Ines).

The triple meltdown at Fukushima two years ago was classed as a level 7 incident, one of only two nuclear events ever rated that highly - along with the 1986 Chernobyl disaster in the former Soviet Union.

"The world is closely watching whether we can dismantle the (Fukushima) plant, including the issue of contaminated water," said Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe.

"The government is determined to work hard to resolve the issue."

The funding pledge comes days before a decision is due on the host nation for the 2020 summer Olympic Games, for which Tokyo is a candidate.

Meanwhile, one of Japan's only two nuclear reactors still online was shut down on Tuesday for mandatory inspections.

The shutdown of Kansai Electric's Oi Unit 3 reactor will leave the plant's Unit 4 reactor the only one still functioning in Japan. Unit 4 must also be taken offline later this month for routine assessment.

Restarting Japan's other nuclear reactors remains a highly controversial issue, but the government is working to get this done to fill an energy gap.


Water from the storage tanks has seeped into the groundwater and then into the sea. Efforts to use a chemical barrier to prevent sea contamination have not worked.

##################

Kind Regards,
Panopticon

Source:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23940214

[panopticon]

So, if I understand what is being proposed by the Japanese Nuclear Regulation Authority, they plan on:

• Building a big frozen earth wall that will be used to stop the contaminated water from coming into contact with ground water.
• Decontaminating the 300,000 tonnes of contaminated water stored on site so it can be pumped into the ocean.
• The only contaminant they are saying will be left in the water is Tritium.
• The water pumped into the ocean will be diluted by the ocean water to below harmful levels.
• All to detract the worlds media attention ahead of the 2020 Olympic decision.

Yeah, nothing could go wrong with this carefully formulated plan.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

Sources:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-0...dumped/4930084
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/0...0GY33X20130903
http://www.smh.com.au/world/high-rad...903-2t1jf.html
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/201...uclear-reactor
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23940214

[Cidersomerset]

Fukushima leaks: Japan pledges $470m for 'ice wall'

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=N2Uydo2MA8k

Published on 3 Sep 2013


Joanna Gosling explains where the leaks are coming from
Japan is to invest hundreds of millions of dollars into building
a frozen wall around the Fukushima nuclear plant to stop leaks
of radioactive water.

Government spokesman Yoshihide Suga said an estimated
47bn yen ($473m, £304m) would be allocated.





http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23940214