Is the white light after we die a trap?

[greybeard]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Pilote Tempête (here)

They're memories, not experiences.

I can remember clearly what I had for dinner last night. That was a memory of my experience.

If you're trying to tell me that I do not know what's real in my own experience, and that you somehow know better, you're being very arrogant indeed.

The most intellectually honest thing you can possibly say is that you haven't experienced those kinds of memories yourself. Many here would respect you for that.

Your doing better than me Bill--I cant remember what I had for supper.

I think the evidence for reincarnation is overwhelming.
Not everything can be proved in laboratories or with the intellect.
As you said thousand have testified to their experience and many uniform NDE accounts.
Adyashnti who previously did not believe in reincarnation, had to say that in the enlightened state all the past lives occurred as though happening at the same moment beyond time

Chris

[greybeard]

The Book Many Lives many Masters is a must for those seriously investigating to find if reincarnation is fact or fantasy.

Pasted from

http://hinduism.about.com/od/reincar.../weissbook.htm

He held steadfastly to conservatism in his profession, distrusting anything that could not be proved by traditional scientific method. But when he met his 27-year old patient, Catherine, in 1980, who came to his office seeking help for her anxiety, panic attacks, and phobias, he was taken aback at what unfolded in the therapy sessions that followed, which jolted him out of his conventional ways of thought and psychiatry. For the first time, he came face-to-face with the concept of reincarnation and the many tenets of Hinduism, which, as he says in the last chapter of the book, “I thought only Hindus… practiced.”

n a series of trance-like states, Catherine recalled “past life” memories that proved to be the causative factors of her recurring nightmares and anxiety attack symptoms. She remembers “living 86 times in physical state” in different places on this earth both as male and female. She recalled vividly the details of each birth – her name, her family, physical appearance, the landscape, and how she was killed by stabbing, by drowning, or illness. And in each lifetime she experiences myriad events “making progress… to fulfill all of the agreements and all of the Karmic (from Hindu concept of Karma) debts that are owed.”
Dr. Weiss’s skepticism was eroded, however, when she began to channel messages from “the space between lives”, messages from the many Masters (highly evolved souls not presently in body) that also contained remarkable revelations about his family and his dead son. Often he had heard his patients talk about near-death experiences when they float out of their mortal bodies guided towards a bright white light before reentering their discarded body once again.

But Catherine revealed much more. As she floats out of her body after each death, she says, “I am aware of a bright light. It’s wonderful; you get energy from this light.” Then, while waiting to be reborn in the in-between-lives state, she learns from the Masters great wisdom and becomes a conduit for transcendental knowledge.

[onawah]

I've never had any memories of past lives, but I am convinced that reincarnation is a reality because from childhood, I have met people who I know I have known before.
Particularly with members of my own particular soul group, there is often instant recognition, and it's often mutual.
I don't mean that we know who the other was in past lives, but that we know that we've known each other before.
When I learned that a very famous Indian psychic had done past life readings on my mentor, Dr. Christopher Hills, and another person in his circle of friends and associates, I was able to begin tracing back members of that soul group in past lives from books and photographs, similar to the process that David Wilcock has described.
A better question than "is reincarnation a reality?" might be: "what is the soul, and what is it that is immortal in us, what essence is there in each individual that could be transmigrating from lifetime to lifetime"?
I don't feel a need to give a name to it other than soul, though perhaps "individual essence" is more descriptive, but I can say with assuredness that I have been able to recognize that unique essence in some individuals, and it is as real as anything else in this reality, perhaps more so.

[Finefeather]

Posted by greybeard (here)
As she floats out of her body after each death,

Hi Chris
This suddenly took me back to my one previous life when I died on a sidewalk. I remember clearly as if it was yesterday how I floated out of my body.
The exciting thing about this one is that once when I went OB and went back in time I actually watched...like an onlooker...at the entire thing.
I could see myself lying on my side on the sidewalk with people around me and I could actually see and actually experienced the withdrawal from the body at the same time...and I knew I was actually going to 'die'.

[Pilote Tempête]

Greybeard,

Ur being abuse n twisting everything around. I'm not saying we don't have memories of experiences in our lives. I'm saying we don't have experiences of past lives.

[Pilote Tempête]

Finefeather,

Like I said, the memories come from the ZPF. And the reason it doesn't make sense to me is that it 's not real. I know all there is to know about it n I do understand the facts about it. I am not at all judging it on false info. It's you who is not willling to see it for what it is.

[greybeard]

Posted by Pilote Tempête (here)
Greybeard,

Ur being abuse n twisting everything around. I'm not saying we don't have memories of experiences in our lives. I'm saying we don't have experiences of past lives.

Respectfully I did not mention your name.
I have had on going discussion on this thread about the light experienced after death--hence the bold print on my post---also possible reasons for reincarnation.
So my post was not aimed at you though yes I copied what Bill had posted which had your post incorporated.
You will note the response mentioned Bill--so part of it was addressed to him.
So I am sorry if you think I was being abusive---such was not the case.

Best wishes
Chris

[Wind]

For example I have always known it to be true that I have a very deep connection with my mother. It is not just a parent & child relationship, I truly know that we have shared lives for eons and then some. She is one of my guardians. When you have that kind of a relationship with some of the people in your life, you know that there is more behind that than what what meets the eye. The intellect cannot understand this, but the heart can.

In fact the intellect thinks that it knows a lot, but in reality it knows very little or not much at all. When we reach deep inside, we will remember and find our true wisdom. It is immense, untouchable and eternal. People come and go, civilizations rise and fall, worlds form and dissolve, but it remains. Forever and ever.

[Milneman]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Pilote Tempête (here)
Amzer Zo,

The answer is simple, there's been no improvement because there is no reincarnation. And the NDE is an hallucination. This does not mean there is no after-life--there is, but it's physical but in another frequency, n that's why ghosts can be seen n heard n spirits can be seen n heard by mediums.

Well, then, the many dozens of detailed lifetimes I've recalled and processed (and the many hundreds of thousands recalled by others, also) -- must all be a delusion!

That is logically possible.

[Milneman]

Posted by Pilote Tempête (here)
They're memories, not experiences.

There is more evidence against reincarnation than for it. The following is a summary of the evidence against it.

1. the "inter-life" period is never remembered other than under hypnosis where it can easily be due to artificial generation since the person in these sessions believes in reincarnation to begin with

2. the "inter-life" period is identical to the NDE except for the reincarnation component (most NDExperiencers deny reincarnation so if the NDE consists of a real experience it contradicts reincarnation and if it is false than so is reincarnation because of the striking similarity to the "interlife" period or at least makes it very suspect

3. the ZPF (zero-point field) is the explanation for the illusion of reincarnation as it is the Akashic Record of the esoteric and so contains all the memories and in an altered state such as hypnosis, dreams, and early childhood (where the brain is only beginning to develop) actual past lives can be remembered and are remembered by people as if they were their own; the explanation that all past life memories are acquired through other means is weak as in most cases the person had no knowledge of that past person and the idea that they only or mostly remember famous people is a complete myth as such cases are rare.

4. many in the spiritualist movement, particularly the British or Anglo-American brand, of the 18 and early 1900s, and still some today, rejected reincarnation; it makes much more sense that souls would evolve in the afterlife, as some spiritualism held, than in this life which affords little, if any, opportunity for learning and growth in any spiritual way because of its limited awareness and abilities, and which is a valley of tears as the Salve Regina so aptly puts it.

5. when a psychic reads a past life in someone it is only because the subject has a certain subconscious recall through the ZPF which is accessed by the psychic; any similarity or meaningfulness to the subject is only because he would tend to connect to those past lives which are meaningful to him but which he did not experience--the same is true under hypnosis; under hypnosis a person can artificially see a whole string of lives as inter-related and meaningful to him/her

6. wounds, birthmarks, and phobias or other feelings are only related to the subject because the past life, which wasn't experienced by him/her, is unconsciously recalled through mixed signals from the ZPF and causes these physical manifestations or feelings

7. nothing in reincarnationism makes sense and it is full of contradictions and also generates superstitions.

8. there is no satisfactory explanation of how it could be possible for a soul to incarnate and even if it were possible, which is doubtful, it would be interfering with the soul and life of that person

9. the purpose of metempsychosis, as it is sometimes called, is to improve oneself spiritually but this is contradicted by the fact that civilizations involved in the UFO phenomenon are demonic or at least unenlightened, and it seems that this is the norm for advanced civilizations; as well there has been little or no improvement in people in general and any improvements in society can be attributed to other causes, such as normal cultural evolution

10. people having organ transplants start having memories of the donour's life whom they did not know, knew nothing about, and never met, which is more evidence that a person can recall a past life that he did not experience (cell memory theory)

11. a woman on vacation in Mexico had a troubling dream about being killed and it was later learned that another woman, who she did not know and was unaware of, who had stayed in that very hotel room had been murdered and her body was found buried on the beach according to information from the dream (Dossiers Secrèts, Pierre Bellemare, Jacques Antoine, Marie-Thérèse Cuny, Edition 1, 1984, 1996), which is yet more evidence that someone can have memories of a past life that he or she didn't experience

12. in "Aaron's Crossing; an Inspiring True Ghost Story" by L.A. Dewey, the spirit relates that there is no reincarnation.

You know what I find really depressing about this? When I started reading your post, I was actually excited that I might get to read something that had some serious substance to it. I was wrong.

I have this strange push to write more in this thread, but I wanted to say (before I head out the door) that the reality is this: the proof both sides are looking for here is rational, not empirical. When empirical proof shows up, stop the presses and get the bubbly out! There is however philosophical proofs for an after life, and if that proof can extend to reincarnation, there might be some hope. However, as it stands, I'm disappointed with both sides so far, and am inclined to relax into my belief that it's actually more important to focus on the life we are currently perceiving as happening than any of them that might happen, or will happen.

As the old twelve step saw says, "If you stand with one foot in yesterday, and one foot in tomorrow, you'll end up pissing all over today."

More later.

[Agape]

The easiest way to understand about 'past lives' is really not through 'memory of past' but through presence ,
logically .. all you can experience at any given moment is your 'presence' ( though soon a past too ). Past-presence-future is relative to the 3D experiencers point of view , beyond the 3D attached 'little mind' your existence is timeless .

If you miss the experience of yourself - your existence - as timeless being - I think that understanding that there are any past lives is experientially weird and nearly impossibly . True, they could be illusions, imaginations , or someones else's memories - and in many cases they truly are .

On the other hand .. inquisitive seeker starts asking themselves at some point inevitably - ''where did I come from'' . Where did I exist .. before my current awareness , this particular body-conscious complex , this life .

When did you really come to being ?

At the time of birth ? The moment of conception ? Where have you been before then ? Did your consciousness co-emerge from your fathers and mothers 'genes' ?

If so , it still implies you were there , consciousness , aware or unaware ..

If you will try to track the beginning of your existence .. you will find none . But you may find the dimension of you where many memories and experiences exist,
half asleep , waiting to be awakened .

They're there .. in your genes . And no , they're hardly your mothers memories .. she has just carried them forwards , quite like you carry thousands and millions of such hidden memories of your ancestors .. that will be born in your grand-grand-children , without your knowledge .

I think there's a reason why consciousness is so poorly understood .. and why memories aren't naturally all awake . It could disturb . It could take you on whole new level of human experience , one of a sage .

[Sidney]

Another reason for lack of memory of past lives could be that this is indeed a persons first trip here. Also some peoples brains are more efficient than others. We aren't suppose to remember because we were set up for failure to do so, having been wiped of memories between lives.

I also think it may be possible that not everyone is reincarnated, that at death, it is indeed the end. I don't really go along with that theory but in truth the possibilities are endless. I personally think reincarnation is really the only thing that makes sense.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by Pilote Tempête (here)
Greybeard,

Ur being abuse n twisting everything around. I'm not saying we don't have memories of experiences in our lives. I'm saying we don't have experiences of past lives.

Pilote Tempête, I do not think greybeard was being abusive.

Like you, Pilote Tempête, my dominant strength is in my "3D" rational mind. I have no awareness of any past lives or out of body experiences or spiritual being substantially distinct from my physical and rational beings. Perhaps you are similar to me in this regard.

But an essential strength of this forum is the variety of strengths and awarenesses of its members. If you reject the good posts of others, even to the point of finding them to be abusive, then I predict that you will find your stay here tempestuous.

[onawah]

I watched a movie streaming on Netflix last night that I thought was amazingly good, called Crazy Wisdom, The Life and Times of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche,
a documentary about Pema Chodren's (among many others') controversial teacher, who started the Naropa Institute in Boulder Colorado.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=80jGSadccmY

He was a high lama who escaped from Tibet and went to Oxford University, then left the traditional path and created his own style of teaching mindfulness to Westerners.
I saw him speak to a small group in California once.
When they called him the "bad boy" of Buddhism, they weren't kidding...nonetheless, he was very wise, and I think he not only understood how not to be "food", and how to see through the false light, but knew how to teach that to others by his example.
http://www.netflix.com/WiMovie/70247...vieid=70247854
http://www.crazywisdomthemovie.com/

[Finefeather]

Posted by Sidney (here)
We aren't suppose to remember because we were set up for failure to do so, having been wiped of memories between lives.

I wonder who is it that you think might set us up for failure?

Nothing is forgotten and all we know resides in our subconscious causal state waiting for some trigger to bring back some memory.

The reason why we do not generally remember initially is because we start at birth with a new physical, emotional a mental envelope...a clear slate...this is not a setup for failure but a new life with new things to work on.

Some of us remember quite quickly after birth because we bring with us some remembrances which may be required for our new life to take some path.

Other past memories can appear quite suddenly as a result of some trigger in life which can take the form of a deja vu...we can also find this when reading some truths, or some subject, and deep inside we just know it is true, and we can easily grasp the subject as if we had studied it before...this is known as remembrance anew.

With love
Ray

[greybeard]

Posted by Finefeather (here)

Posted by Sidney (here)
We aren't suppose to remember because we were set up for failure to do so, having been wiped of memories between lives.

I wonder who is it that you think might set us up for failure?

Nothing is forgotten and all we know resides in our subconscious causal state waiting for some trigger to bring back some memory.

The reason why we do not generally remember initially is because we start at birth with a new physical, emotional a mental envelope...a clear slate...this is not a setup for failure but a new life with new things to work on.

Some of us remember quite quickly after birth because we bring with us some remembrances which may be required for our new life to take some path.

Other past memories can appear quite suddenly as a result of some trigger in life which can take the form of a deja vu...we can also find this when reading some truths, or some subject, and deep inside we just know it is true, and we can easily grasp the subject as if we had studied it before...this is known as remembrance anew.

With love
Ray

Yes Ray
Bill stated post 393 that he remembered and processed past live as had thousands of others.
So it seems that recall is possible and memories in these cases certainly have not been erased- wiped.

Chris

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Finefeather (here)

The reason why we do not generally remember initially is because we start at birth with a new physical, emotional a mental envelope...a clear slate...this is not a setup for failure but a new life with new things to work on.

We certainly don't start a new lifetime with 'a clean slate'... if I understand you correctly.

We bring our unfinished business with us, just as our unfinished business from yesterday is still with us today when we woke up this morning.

I'd suggest that the metaphor of starting a new day, but with whatever happened yesterday being still all too real, applies fairly accurately.

[Milneman]

Posted by Agape (here)
The easiest way to understand about 'past lives' is really not through 'memory of past' but through presence ,
logically .. all you can experience at any given moment is your 'presence' ( though soon a past too ). Past-presence-future is relative to the 3D experiencers point of view , beyond the 3D attached 'little mind' your existence is timeless .

If you miss the experience of yourself - your existence - as timeless being - I think that understanding that there are any past lives is experientially weird and nearly impossibly . True, they could be illusions, imaginations , or someones else's memories - and in many cases they truly are .

On the other hand .. inquisitive seeker starts asking themselves at some point inevitably - ''where did I come from'' . Where did I exist .. before my current awareness , this particular body-conscious complex , this life .

When did you really come to being ?

At the time of birth ? The moment of conception ? Where have you been before then ? Did your consciousness co-emerge from your fathers and mothers 'genes' ?

If so , it still implies you were there , consciousness , aware or unaware ..

If you will try to track the beginning of your existence .. you will find none . But you may find the dimension of you where many memories and experiences exist,
half asleep , waiting to be awakened .

They're there .. in your genes . And no , they're hardly your mothers memories .. she has just carried them forwards , quite like you carry thousands and millions of such hidden memories of your ancestors .. that will be born in your grand-grand-children , without your knowledge .

I think there's a reason why consciousness is so poorly understood .. and why memories aren't naturally all awake . It could disturb . It could take you on whole new level of human experience , one of a sage .

Or, to put it in the words of the late Dr. Ronald Nash, "To be is to be conceived."

[Milneman]

Posted by Sidney (here)
Another reason for lack of memory of past lives could be that this is indeed a persons first trip here. Also some peoples brains are more efficient than others. We aren't suppose to remember because we were set up for failure to do so, having been wiped of memories between lives.

I also think it may be possible that not everyone is reincarnated, that at death, it is indeed the end. I don't really go along with that theory but in truth the possibilities are endless. I personally think reincarnation is really the only thing that makes sense.

Really?

Let me float something over and see what you think.

Consider the possibility that the universe has an infinitely powerful being operating it. Thought experiment, so go with me for a moment. Consider that being "thinks" every sentient being into existence, and that being that is thought into existence will continue to exist as a thought in that infinitely powerful being. So when you die, your physical body dies but the essence of what you are (soul) continues to exist on and on.

The major argument against this possibility that I hear usually comes in the form of "Wouldn't you get bored living in eternity, doing the same things over and over and over?" And my reply to that is this: suppose that infinitely powerful being operates the universe, exists outside of the universe, and outside of time. Suppose that as you exit this universe, you exit the confines of what time is. How, then do you determine when you get bored of doing something if there is no time to do it in?

Thinking this way, let's put another layer into the experiment. Suppose that infinitely powerful being notices that certain energies have qualities that help the system, or are used by the being as a means of regulating the system somehow. Constants, let's call them. Suppose that some energies (let's call them souls) do in fact manifest differently than others for this exact reason. Again, this is a thought experiment and not meant to promote a certain dogma, but what if the idea of angelic beings actually gets a twist from this notion?

So now we have a simple system on the scale of the entire universe, controlled by an infinitely powerful being, using certain elements to re-condition the system because they have a greater potential.

Suppose there's a system in place in the universe to allow for the development of the life which inhabits the universe to grow, develop, and mature within the system? Let's call it natural selection and modern evolutionary theory. Suppose the next stage in human evolution, in this thought experiment, is recognizing the choice to evolve to the next point. Suppose that's the point of it all.

Doesn't that make as much sense as a system that continually recycles itself? You also have the problem of explaining how a system like reincarnation begins. If we've always existed, always will exist, and always will continue to exist, when were we created? How were we created?

Going with my own thought experiment, which in part is belief for me, I end up at the exact same questions someone who believes in reincarnation does. And that's interesting, don't you think? It means, somewhere along the line, aspects of what we both believe are true...or we are both equally deceived!

Sidney, I'm not suggesting you're wrong in what you believe. I think for whatever reason you're justified in your beliefs, and that's cool! You have a right to be, just as much as I have a right to be. The problem for me begins when another belief system, with equal value, can somehow be dismissed slight of hand without substantial proofs.

Anyway, happy Friday.

[Milneman]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Finefeather (here)

The reason why we do not generally remember initially is because we start at birth with a new physical, emotional a mental envelope...a clear slate...this is not a setup for failure but a new life with new things to work on.

We certainly don't start a new lifetime with 'a clean slate'... if I understand you correctly.

We bring our unfinished business with us, just as our unfinished business from yesterday is still with us today when we woke up this morning.

I'd suggest that the metaphor of starting a new day, but with whatever happened yesterday being still all too real, applies fairly accurately.

Bill,

I wanted to try and find a way to pry into this to either justify or deny it. Instead of coming up against the wall of my own dogma, I got a voice which said, very clearly, this:

An being of infinite love, God, is going to give every creature it loves, namely us, as many chances as it takes to get it right....why? Because that's what love is.

I don't know what to believe. I've seen my ancestors...3D...realtime. I've seen them clearer than any extra terrestrial. I've seen spirits in sweat lodges and on fasts. I know when I'm being talked to, I know when I'm being touched. Maybe that's the point.

We just keep getting chances until we get it right. By our natures, it makes sense that it would take thousands of times. That same voice keeps saying to me now: this is your best chance, so do it now!

And I get the punch to the gut when I remember the greatest commandment of my own faith. Love each other as I have loved you.

W-o-w

Cheers