In the Shadow of Mammon: Are You Ready to Be Free of It?

[aheb]

Yeah I absolutely agree that gold and silver are money..I would buy more if I could..silver is very affordable and some people reckon it will go higher percent wise than gold........but what we used to have was money i.e pieces of paper backed by gold. What we have now is " Fiat currencey" which is pieces of paper backed by nothing, and this is what they manipulate...they cannot manipulate gold if it backs your currencey, but they are doing it now because a s yet it doesn't back the currencey.
and there are new kids on the blog Chinese and Russian kids who want their money backed by silver and gold..........so, I think changes are afoot

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Posted by aheb (here)
Yeah I absolutely agree that gold and silver are money..I would buy more if I could..silver is very affordable and some people reckon it will go higher percent wise than gold........but what we used to have was money i.e pieces of paper backed by gold. What we have now is " Fiat currencey" which is pieces of paper backed by nothing, and this is what they manipulate...they cannot manipulate gold if it backs your currencey, but they are doing it now because a s yet it doesn't back the currencey.
and there are new kids on the blog Chinese and Russian kids who want their money backed by silver and gold..........so, I think changes are afoot

i sure hope so!

it sure makes me a bit worried about the so called "goldfinger" scenario of 9/11

the trouble between us and Germany is worrisome.
they want their gold back and we stall --

makes me wonder if it's irradiated garbage. @@

like the towers were just a thing to look at.
and the REAL DAMAGE ---- SO much more devastating than a few K lives and two or five buildings.

if you know what i mean @@

[risveglio]

Posted by Tesla_WTC_Solution (here)
when we are given power, i am not so sure that it's proper to make money off of others (with no other point to life) with these powers...

Lazy is a matter of perception.

"this person won't work for my system therefore he is useless"?

" "What's so hard is that a lot of families are working so hard," said Dr. Megan Sandel, an associate professor of pediatrics and public health at BMC. "They are working jobs. They are earning money and their dollars just don't go far enough."

That is life for nearly 15 million children living in poverty in the U.S., according to the National Center for Children in Poverty"

I think yes a person does need to work. I would like it if there was not a system but I only get that in my little bubble world. Except for those that can not work. What do we do with the person that does not want to work? Do we just feed him/her and let him/her play XBOX till they die? They would at least need to grow there own food. Now if they grew enough to survive and the free energy was transmitted in a way that everyone had it with little labor, then they might not need money unless they want to play XBox all day. Maybe I misspoke with lazy but I mean those looking to take advantage. They are usually not the very poor.

I don't see how removing money will keep the extreme poor from being poor. Money is the only way I can help those that are in extreme poverty far away from me. I have more recently put my time into people more local but how does removing money teach them to farm or give them fertile land, that can only come from us

Posted by Tesla_WTC_Solution (here)
as for money vs. work as a thing of value.

Maybe this is where I missed something along this thread. As I said above I am a little nuts and a sometimes quite stupid. I don't understand "money vs work". I work to make money so that I can buy things. If I was able to sell my work directly to buy something I wanted and it would require less work, I would love to do that. If you don't have to buy the thing you want because you can produce it then you don't need money or someone to barter with. There is no problem with money in this scenario, it is not until we discuss what government has done to money, that is when it becomes a problem.

Posted by Tesla_WTC_Solution (here)

If the USA continues to use money, we need to heed what ancient cultures said about it:

In the Anguttaranikaya (A.II. (69-70) the Buddha mentions that there are four kinds of happiness derived from wealth. They are:

1) Atthisukha - The happiness of ownership.

2) Anavajjasukha - The happiness derived from wealth which is earned by means of right livelihood, i.e. not dealing in the sale of harmful weapons, not dealing in the slaughter of animals and sale of flesh, not dealing in the sale of liquor, not dealing in the sale of human beings (e.g. slavery and prostitution) and not dealing in the sale of poisons.

3) Ananasukha - the happiness derived from not being in debt.

4) Bhogasukha - the happiness of sharing one's wealth. This kind of happiness is an extremely important concept in Buddhism.

when we "rent ourselves out" to the corporate world,
what do we "own"? how can we own a share of slavery? @@

and how many americans are debt free? lmfao!

how many americans deal in weapons and poisons? (most of the rich ones from Monsanto to Gates to Cheney to Venter lol)

and sadly, how many americans give freely of themselves to others?
time, education, risks, donations?

Buddha made it fairly clear that the establishment isn't enough -- don't just give your 10 percent to some church or other.....

I would think you may have a good percentage of Avaloniian Americans that strive for these four. The system makes them all very hard, most Americans need to go into debt to accomplish some level of ownership. I don't know if it is possible to do number two while paying taxes. I would think there may be a higher percentage of us that try to do number four since it is the only way to help without just handing out money, maybe that is the whole point that this dumb dumb missed

Posted by Tesla_WTC_Solution (here)

Posted by aheb (here)
It is not money that is evil, without money we would be in a much worse state. What is evil is the way that money is manipulated and people must get away from the left right paradigm, that doesn't really apply. The democrats/labour and the Republicans/ conservatives are passenegrs on a boat, they don't drive or steer it, the military industrial complex ruled over by the banks control it, and use debt based fractional reseve banking to enforce their hold. Until you understand that you are no nearer to destroying this process than your ancestors

Would you agree that the money of today is NOT like the money of 100 years ago?
i.e. paper money should not be considered a true currency because it represents something totally different than the "real thing" i.e. gold/silver

Come to think of it, to get people to "hate/resent" and "let go" of their money,
turning it into depressing ugly paper with other people's names on it, or worse, turning it into a plastic charge card (!),
works quite well.

I think if I had a stack of gold coins at home, I would be more likely to keep them,
than I am to keep my 'electronic' money/paper money --

In the back of my mind, for instance, I am constantly worried about:

A.) my bank changing policy to screw me (happened this month -- atm inquiries racked up fees that overdrew my accounts for the first time ever)
B.) TPTB blocking my transactions (used to happen a lot with my cards, wal mart and toys r us etc.)
C.) a run on the banks
D.) electronic warfare
E.) revolution devaluing the currency
F.) plague/quarantine trapping us i.e. unable to use currency due to lack of access to necessary systems

the list goes on forever.
at least as of 2014...

If we were talking about gold and silver etc. i would have to agree, there are lots of good things about money...
IF it's based on something of value and can be redeemed...

we lost everything in the 20s-30s

...

after the Fed Reserve came up and the gold was confiscated!
it's UNREAL that in the USA people would agree to that.
imo.


i think a metal detector would be an awesome investment.
i would take it to all the houses that stood right before the gold seizure.
and look for their hidden jars of coins.

better believe it Baby :


p.p.p.s. who said this one: "buy ye gold tried by fire".

not gonna give the verse # because i got one wrong earlier and someone said i missed the point of the story (eye roll)

Here you bring up gold and silver so I guess you are not talking about just money, my dumbass may have missed the point here or let the thread lead me astray. Some of us are trying to find ways around your horrible but true bank scenario. P2P looks promising and getting harder to trace.

Google says ye quote is from Revelations and I never said you missed the point of the story. I just fixed your verses. Though they are both about paying someone, they are completely different stories, with different context. This is important whether you look at the Bible as a religious text, a self help book, or even a fictional story. There were different characters, there was a different point.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

risveglio:

working on a farm doesn't require money once it's started up.
you self-sustain. eventually some families who do this end up not needing money at all, due to barter.

Not sure who brought up Xbox, but I'm not advertising for Microsoft here, are you..?

risveglio you keep calling yourself stupid and dumb. Are you sure you don't want ME to feel stupid and dumb?
I never called you anything, nice to meet you btw.

There's a phrase that keeps popping up in your post: "I don't see/I can't see".
Does that mean you don't understand what I've written or don't agree?
When we close our eyes, we definitely cannot see.

To use your phrase, "I don't see" why you quoted my entire posts to eat half a page of thread,
when your posts are about 1/4 the size and don't address my points.

You pick a few tiny things out of the huge posts and want me to focus on them.




To live without money you need:

survival skills
space to operate
community (unless you want to be a mountain man)
access to natural resources
agreement on cooperation/labor
common purpose/or at least some shared standards/goals
freedom



Living without money:
https://sites.google.com/site/living...-economy-today
http://suliwrites.wordpress.com/2012...-less-society/
http://www.details.com/culture-trend...n-zero-dollars
http://www.sciforums.com/Could-we-su...y-t-24733.html
http://www.ted.com/conversations/189...at_all_ca.html
http://www.cracked.com/article_19976...n-existed.html
http://matadornetwork.com/change/man...imply-a-mooch/





the above is so people can read about this issue and think about it without focusing on me.
If I died tomorrow, the debate would continue in other places, because I am obviously not the first person who woke up and thought money was a ****ing joke one morning.


*shrug* lazy because i don't do robot stuff?

please don't equate the desire to be free of the monetary system to a desire to play Xbox.

that's a bit below where most PA people operate on a daily basis.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

looks like he left the thread as soon as i replied to him.. oh well!
those who are INTERESTED in the alt lifestyle can read:


http://matadornetwork.com/change/man...imply-a-mooch/

DANIEL SUELO, 48, HAS BEEN living without money or any barter system, and no food stamps or government help, for the past nine years. While in Ecuador on a Peace Corps mission, he witnessed a rural community acquire increased monetary wealth through farming and shift their traditional lifestyle towards a diet of unhealthy, processed food and a newfound addiction to television.

The experience led Suelo on a spiritual quest that realized itself in India, where he was particularly moved by the Sadhus, wandering monks who renounce all money and possessions. He made the conscious decision to return home, quit his job, and carve out a life without money.

As he put it, “I simply got tired of being unreal. Money is one of those intriguing things that seem real and functional because two or more people believe it is real and functional.”

Photo: platschi

Today, Suelo lives in a cave in Utah and gets around by hopping trains or hitchhiking. For food he relies on dumpster diving, foraging, fishing, and, occasionally, hunting. From the public library he authors a blog and a website where he discusses his everyday life and offers up deep philosophical musings on why a society based on the concept of money is harmful and contrary to our true nature.

He says he’s never been happier, living like “ants and deer and slugs and sparrows and bacteria and atoms and galaxies.”

Though Suelo’s story is a particularly riveting one, less radical communities of “freegans” are cropping up in places like San Francisco and New York. These groups have risen out of a desire to boycott what is seen as an unethical corporate system and to minimize the waste of resources. To varying degrees, freegans salvage edible food from dumpsters, squat in abandoned buildings, and encourage a reconsideration of the benefits of leisure and play as opposed to excessive work.

p.s. how is my autistic kid going to survive in a world where "money is the only way to live"?

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

OK so stop fighting and offer solutions is what people are probably thinking.

You don't have to "escape the city" to soon live without money.
There is no reason we can't all make it through the transition if humanity decides to shrug off the yoke.
Occupy Everything.
Food freedom the first step toward TOTAL freedom.



Have you ever heard of vertical farming?

http://www.verticalfarm.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming
http://gizmodo.com/chicagos-huge-ver...ess-1575275486
http://www.economist.com/node/17647627
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...the-world.html
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/201...ise-in-chicago
http://www.growingpower.org/verticalfarm.html
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2...d-erik-murchie

Like if the banks closed tomorrow and there weren't enough paid police and guardsmen to keep us out, there would be very little stopping people from re-routing the water lines and power grid to suit a different purpose -- each city becoming independent of the others.




Rise of the Agrarian City States


even during a time of war, financial collapse, or plague -- a city equipped against starvation will endure any siege.

I personally do believe that the vertical farm is one of the answers to what is currently mislabeled 'overpopulation'.


How can there be too much intelligence? How can there be too many people?
Isn't there a better way to deal with our issues than just wait to die?


http://www.greendiary.com/stunning-s...m-designs.html



I think the people should turn the bankers out their own buildings, like they do to us when we run out of money, take their (OUR) resources, and use the structures for things WE need -- not allowing them to propagate their system...


turn


into





money support militaries...

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

that is my dream. what's in that post up there.
it's what i wish for people in the future.
to have enough food and not have to worry about money.

and if free energy in any form, by any definition is available,
i hope that people find it -- take it- use it to grow --

that is what i want for humanity.

edit: if people were willing to do just a fraction of the work that the blacks had to do on the plantations back during the days when whites enslaved them, no one in the world would starve.

thanks to bankers and other "trash" jobs like that, MOST people who get paid don't actually "work".

to clarify to the dude up above somewhere, the difference between work and money, there are tons of people with money who don't do any work toward saving people from starvation or war.

[risveglio]

Posted by Tesla_WTC_Solution (here)
risveglio:

working on a farm doesn't require money once it's started up.
you self-sustain. eventually some families who do this end up not needing money at all, due to barter.

Not sure who brought up Xbox, but I'm not advertising for Microsoft here, are you..?

risveglio you keep calling yourself stupid and dumb. Are you sure you don't want ME to feel stupid and dumb?
I never called you anything, nice to meet you btw.

There's a phrase that keeps popping up in your post: "I don't see/I can't see".
Does that mean you don't understand what I've written or don't agree?
When we close our eyes, we definitely cannot see.

To use your phrase, "I don't see" why you quoted my entire posts to eat half a page of thread,
when your posts are about 1/4 the size and don't address my points.

You pick a few tiny things out of the huge posts and want me to focus on them.




To live without money you need:

survival skills
space to operate
community (unless you want to be a mountain man)
access to natural resources
agreement on cooperation/labor
common purpose/or at least some shared standards/goals
freedom



Living without money:
https://sites.google.com/site/living...-economy-today
http://suliwrites.wordpress.com/2012...-less-society/
http://www.details.com/culture-trend...n-zero-dollars
http://www.sciforums.com/Could-we-su...y-t-24733.html
http://www.ted.com/conversations/189...at_all_ca.html
http://www.cracked.com/article_19976...n-existed.html
http://matadornetwork.com/change/man...imply-a-mooch/





the above is so people can read about this issue and think about it without focusing on me.
If I died tomorrow, the debate would continue in other places, because I am obviously not the first person who woke up and thought money was a ****ing joke one morning.


*shrug* lazy because i don't do robot stuff?

please don't equate the desire to be free of the monetary system to a desire to play Xbox.

that's a bit below where most PA people operate on a daily basis.

Yes working on a farm does not necessarily require money once it is started up. I do not care to promote Microsoft, I was just using playing xbox as an example of someone that does not want to work. None of my posts are directed at you, I am just trying to understand what you are getting at. Sorry if it seemed like I was attacking your idea, I am not, just trying to understand. The reason why I keep calling myself dumb is because I think I missed your point and am not clear if it is because its not clear in this thread or if it is just my comprehension. I see money only as a tool. I do not see your average business owner or entrepreneur as a bad person. I really don't understand how you eliminate the need for labor and things still get done. Its really just me trying to understand in a series of bad posts because i am rushing through it all.

I am not calling you lazy, not saying free of money is playing xbox, just trying to get a better understanding because I agree with most of what I understand in this thread and I usually like the point of your threads. Money as we know it, is a ****ing joke, no argument there and really no argument at all. I am not trying to be combative, thought this was a place to speak freely but maybe I am in the wrong place?

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

no it's not your fault, i think i was too tired last night to think clearly.
i think you're great and your ?'s obviously made me think.

please forgive my limitations and see the vision beyond the mortal coil unlucky enough to hold my bitter soul.


DANGER: snakes


p.s. i love small business owners especially asians. they crack me up. they are my favorite zelda characters lol. p.p.s. you would not like some of the business owner in CA or Seattle. chasing off the homeless... etc.






I really AM sorry if i hurt your feelings.
last night was HORRRRRRRIBLE in walla walla.
you guys would not have believed the drama here lol




Walla Walla is a tourist trap for rich winos, and anyone not invested in that scene is generally poor/ignorant.

so the worst of the educated meets the worst of the uneducated in walla walla.
the white people SUCK here.

[yelik]

Capitalism is an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

Profit is important for the SURVIVAL of the business and a primary instinct of man. The fear of not surviving, because of lack of money becomes a self fulfilling arrangement. Is it any wonder man tries to accumulate wealth so as to avoid the fear of not surviving, or at least in a manner they see fit.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Posted by yelik (here)
Capitalism is an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

Profit is important for the SURVIVAL of the business and a primary instinct of man. The fear of not surviving, because of lack of money becomes a self fulfilling arrangement. Is it any wonder man tries to accumulate wealth so as to avoid the fear of not surviving, or at least in a manner they see fit.

Yelik, thank you, I meant to talk about profit but abandoned the thread.

I would love to see a world where people keep only what they need to survive, and profit is shared with their less fortunate fellows.

Personally the more work I do the better I feel... but if I worked 24/7 I would have *nothing* but money, no personal growth...

I think sitting back and watching what other people do when they have *something* is just as nice as having something others do not.

Maybe we are not the same, but I can't even stand the grocery store... I see too much poverty.
Too many people without enough debit to buy their bag of food.
Disabled folks without caregivers who try to live on fruit cocktail.
Etc. you get the idea...


People make excuses... they produce rhetoric... why it's ok for 1% to shine and let the 99% die.

I.e. caring about other places, like US people caring about Europe and Africa and Asia,
not merely taking brute advantage of downfall.



WE REAP
what
WE SOW...

if we sow scarcely
there will be a scarce harvest...

if we sow generously
there won't be enough mouths for all the food we have to share.





Why defend a system that is broken?
I am not saying throw rocks at McD's or flash mob Safeway...

just wondering if there is a way to peaceably ensure,
that all human beings who want something have it.

[yelik]

Hi tesla
It's a tricky one.

I think to solve the problem we need to somehow eliminate some of the bad traits of man. In any group a natural leader will emerge, unfortunately they often have psychopathic tendencies whereby people will follow them because they come across as strong, articulate and knowing what they doing. The leader believes they are entitled to more because of the added responsibility for others. They will protect their position of power anyway they see fit. A good but weak leader will be quickly overcome by the more motivated psychopath who will use any means necessary to get to the top.

In the real world venture capitalist investors will actively seek out people with a ruthless business nature because experience tells them they are more driven than mr average and are more likely to succeed and hence protect their investment.

How do you go about changing the nature and traits of man, essentially we need to somehow eliminate those psychopathic characteristics whereby people will only follow good. We need to reverse some of the genetic tampering that ET has done over the years.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Posted by yelik (here)
Hi tesla
It's a tricky one.

I think to solve the problem we need to somehow eliminate some of the bad traits of man. In any group a natural leader will emerge, unfortunately they often have psychopathic tendencies whereby people will follow them because they come across as strong, articulate and knowing what they doing. The leader believes they are entitled to more because of the added responsibility for others. They will protect their position of power anyway they see fit. A good but weak leader will be quickly overcome by the more motivated psychopath who will use any means necessary to get to the top.

In the real world venture capitalist investors will actively seek out people with a ruthless business nature because experience tells them they are more driven than mr average and are more likely to succeed and hence protect their investment.

How do you go about changing the nature and traits of man, essentially we need to somehow eliminate those psychopathic characteristics whereby people will only follow good. We need to reverse some of the genetic tampering that ET has done over the years.

i think you're absolutely right.

however some psychos have suffered so much they begin to feel sorry for others.
motivated to improve life in general and not just self-experience.

but as a rule your synopsis is fairly correct.
however we do have good examples among our founding fathers etc.
people who would not keep power for anything.

i don't know where those people went -- the breed seems exhausted

almost time to move GW's bones imo.
a foreign shore.