Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

[Cidersomerset]

US State Dept offers ‘no comment’ on ballistic missiles fired by Kiev forces

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Q6yX3w5m6oI

Published on 29 Jul 2014


In the past two days, Kiev’s forces have launched several short-range
ballistic missiles into areas in eastern Ukraine controlled by self-defense
forces, CNN reported, citing US government sources. However State
Department spokesperson Jen Psaki offered no comment on the issue.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cold War Strategy: US hits Russian energy & finance sectors with more sanctions

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=vjcOifTNHPU

Published on 30 Jul 2014


The United States announced a new round of sanctions against Moscow, accusing
the Kremlin of supporting anti-Kiev militias in eastern Ukraine and threatening to
cripple the Russian economy. RT's correspondents have the details.

[MorningSong]

As this thread progresses, we are drawn to include mention of war and wars in other locations as we try to connect the dots... events which appear to be bringing us rapidly to the edge of the dreaded WW3. Do we need to start a "branching off" thread? Or do we, as Selene suggests in post no. 798, need to try to keep it all mixed together?

Nonetheless, this is in response to Cider's post no. 801:

US Military Dusts Off Decades-Old 'Readiness' Plans for Russia

ABC News
By LEE FERRAN July 25, 2014 5:13 PM


As American officials fire off diplomatic salvos at Russia in response to that nation’s purported actual artillery salvos into Ukraine, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said recently that among other actions, the U.S. military is dusting off decades-old plans, just in case.

“We’re looking inside our own readiness models to look at things that we haven’t had to look at for 20 years, frankly, about basing and lines of communication and sea lanes,” Gen. Martin Dempsey, America’s top military officer, said at the Aspen Security Forum Thursday evening. “What the military does when faced with these crises is – our job is preparedness, deterrence and readiness.”

In addition to its own plans, Dempsey said the U.S. military is having “conversations with our NATO allies about increasing their capability and readiness” and that there’s a “very active” ongoing process and debate about how best to provide support to Ukraine.

“I wouldn't misinterpret my presence here today sitting with you… We’re not sitting still,” Dempsey said.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-military-du...opstories.html

[Operator]

Posted by Operator (here)

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
...

So, that's for one thing.

The other thing is, when one looks at the pieces showing those holes, they look like someone has performed target practice at close range (might have been soldiers/militia on the ground beside fragments from the ground explosion when the plane hit the ground)... which led Some VT writer to think those pieces were "salted."

Yep, you're right ... thanks for reminding me.

I had some time now to think about this ... one remark and one question:

- The plane is 'expected' to be at 33000 feet. Black box data still has to confirm it WAS at that height.
- Why would they 'salt' evidence that doesn't match with any potential practical scenario?

Just to stimulate the brainstorm ... not to dispute anything brought forward previously.

[Billy]

Posted by Billy (here)
continued from my previous post:

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/2...e-flag-attack/

From July 18th, after the downing of MH17, Kiev’s BUK launchers were then moved away from the firing zone.

Unlike rebel fighters, the Ukrainian military is in possession of some 27 BUK missile systems capable of bringing down high-flying jets, and forensic satellite imagery places at least 3 of their launchers in the Donetsk region on the day of this tragedy. Yet, Washington and NATO will not inquire about the possibility that any of these system had targeted MH17.

Watch the official video here:



This is a definitive smoking gun: why did the Ukrainian Army move these short-range anti-aircraft SAM missile batteries into position on July 16-17th – to an interior region of East Ukraine where it’s known that the rebel resistance possess no air crafts whatsoever? Not surprisingly, both the US and Kiev have not answered that difficult question, perhaps for obvious reasons.

In addition, the Ukrainian Army’s radio location traffic near Donetsk peaked on the 16th and 17th, including a total of 9 separate radio location systems active. On the 18th and 19th of July, radio location traffic from these stations dropped sharply, down to 4 stations. If, as Washington/Kiev claims, rebels fired a BUK missile at MH17, then the rebel radar location signals would be clearly noted and verifiable on the day; only, they are not.

MH17-MAP
All Aircraft in the Vicinity

Between 5pm-6pm Moscow Time on July 17th, the following aircraft have been identified in the general vicinity of MH17 on its course heading to its fatal destination of Grabovo:

1. Boeing 772 – traveling southeast from Copenhagen to Singapore at 5:17pm
2. Boeing 778 – traveling southeast from Paris to Taipei at 5:24pm
3. Boeing 778 – traveling northwest from Delhi to Birmingham circa 5:20pm
4. Boeing 777 – Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 at 5:17pm
5. Ukrainian Fighter Jet (confirmation of model TBC) appears on radar, trailing MH17 at same altitude, est. 4km behind it at 5:21pm

Note: the pilots and passengers of Singapore Airlines Flight SIA351 were close enough to have visually observed, at high altitude, the demise of MH17.

At 5:20pm MH17 began to abruptly lose speed, eventually slowing to 124mph (200kmph). About this time, possibly an Su-25 Ukrainian fighter jet appears on ATC radar climbing in the direction of MH17, before trailing MH17 on the same flight path approximately 3-5km behind MH17, rapidly approaching the same flight level - only minutes before MH17 disappeared on radar. Note that a Ukrainian fighter would not have been visible on ATC radar before it broke the ATC long-range standby radar tracking ceiling of 5km in altitude. Civilian ATC radar would not be able to identify this Su-25 as military because no secondary detection system is mounted – typical for military aircraft. Over the next four minutes, the Ukrainian fighter remained in the area.

Note also that the Su-25 can be armed with air-to-air R-60 missiles with a range of up to 5km-12km, but as 21WIRE has discovered, the Su-25 is not the only combat aircraft the Ukrainian Air Force has in its possession. On June 4, 2014, Janes Defense reported that Kiev have recently returned to service two other higher performance fighters, including the Su-27 ‘Flanker’ and the MiG-29 ‘Fulcrum’ fighters. The altitude ceiling performance characteristics of all in-service Ukrainian fighters are as follows:

Su-25 ‘Frogfoot’ fighter – Ceiling: 23,000 ft/ 7,000 m, or up to 32,800 ft/ 10,000 m (depending aircraft modifications)
Su-27 ‘Flanker’ fighter – Ceiling: 64,000 ft/ 19,000 m
MiG-29 ‘Fulcrum’ jet – Ceiling: 59,000 ft/ 18,000 m
Su-24 ‘Fencer’ fighter – Ceiling: 36,000 ft/ 11,000 m, or up to 57,400 ft/ 17,500 m (depending on variations of turbo intake)

Although the exact altitude position of MH17 is not yet know for every given second of its final minutes, it’s clear that a Ukrainian combat jet was in its shadow. Suffice to say, Kiev had a number of combat aircraft capable of engaging MH17 at within a wide range of altitudes, as well as firing air-to-air missile at short range (3-5km)either upwards, or downward angles using laser guided targeting which is standard on many of these models.

WATCH VIDEO:

Another Smoking Gun: Kiev government officials insisted on July 17th that, “No military aircraft were available in the region”. Based on available data detailed above, this appears to be a lie, indicating that a cover-up was taking place.

Again, it’s important to note here that at the moment when MH17 was allegedly was hit for the first time, at around 5:23pm Moscow time, the passenger jet was also within the range of several Ukrainian BUK batteries deployed close to Donetsk and as well as the Ukrainian Army’s BUK system positioned on the day just 8km south of Shakhterskoye, only a few miles from the eventual crash site at Grabovo.


IMAGE: A Ukrainian military Su-25 fighter jet carries air-to-air missiles, as do the Su-27 ‘Flanker’, and the MIG-29 Folcrum Fighter.

MH17′s Mysterious Left Turn

On passing glance, this seemingly minor, yet unexplained event doesn’t appear to be significant, but as is often the case, the devil is in the detail.

Again, was Kiev ATC also responsible for MH17′s final and fatal diversion from its course, or is there another reason for what appears to be an evasive maneuver?

One very real possibility for MH17 losing being diverted 14km to the left is that its GPS or navigation system was being jammed. US-NATO forces happened to be conducting an electronic warfare exercise in the Black Sea on July 17th (see ‘SEA BREEZE 2014′, below). In addition to this possibility, all Boeing jets (except Germany’s Lufthansa fleet) are equipped with a remote override that can be accessed by authorities in certain foreign countries, one being the United States. Although not publicly acknowledged until recently, Boeing Uninterruptible Autopilot (BUAP) systems have been standard since the late 1990′s, apparently designed to take control of a commercial aircraft away from the pilot or flight crew, chiefly in the event of a terrorist incident.

Another possible explanation for this crucial event in the timeline is that MH17 was hit, or damaged, taking an emergency 180º left turn for 14km, before disappearing completely off of radar. This appears to be the case. On July 23rd, Anna-News published an interview with retired Russian Air Force colonel Aleksand Zhilin (Александр Жилин) a frequent military commentator on Ukraine’s Civil War.

“According to the colonel, at 16:19:45 (local time, and 5:19pm Moscow time), a Ukrainian jet fighter targeted the Boeing with an air-to-air missile R-60. The missile damaged the right engine of the Boeing. The Boeing was hit, but still managed to stay in the air. However, in doing so, the Boeing turned 180 degrees to the left. It was at this moment that the false flag attack started falling apart. According to Zhilin, part of the plan controlled by the US with Ukrainian hands executing it was to have the Boeing crash past the southern frontline by the Ukrainian-Russian border. Had the Boeing fallen there, securing the crash sites with the troops in response to international pressure was on top of all else effectively to allow Kiev to lift the encirclement of its brigades (currently pinned down by rebels) in the southern pocket by the Russian border.”

“When, however, the Boeing started to turn in the opposite direction and was still apparently manageable, the US-Ukrainian headquarters of the special operation panicked and ordered the Buk battery to destroy the plane in the air in order to pre-empt the possibility of the Boeing’s emergency landing. A Buk missile was fired and the plane was then finally destroyed.”
21WIRE spoke to former Czech diplomat and political analyst, Vladimir Suchan, who puts Zhilin’s comments into context of what was happening militarily at the time of the crash. Suchan explains, “If MH17 was hit right over the frontline over Snezhnoye, this would have placed the timing and location of the intended downing and crash site to either the territory controlled by the Ukrainian army, or much closer to the border between Russia and Ukraine where the “securing of the site” would allow lifting the strategic encirclement of the Ukrainian troops in the south and thus, on top of other objectives, saving Kiev’s armed forces from its first major military defeat.” (see ‘Military All-Out Offense’ section below)

If, indeed MH17 was struck by an air-to-air missile at that time, a distress call may have been sent to Kiev ATC, but as yet, Kiev officials may be reluctant to share, or release the entirety of its communications from July 17th.

At the time of this report being filed at 21WIRE, a second source to verify this testimony is not presently available. Zhilin’s account certainly makes sense when placed next to all ATC and satellite data released by Moscow. However, flight recorder information and data from MH17′s black boxes would certainly be able to corroborate this timeline of events, and one hopes that Great Britain’s predetermined political stance against Russia does not prevent Downing Street, or MI5 Intelligence Services from releasing the black box information in its entirety and more importantly, a full and unedited disclosure to the media. More than likely, the BBC will have first access to this release, and how the BBC report their findings will be very telling.

Above, is one possible map of MH17 final minutes, as calculated from one source of available public data, available here: http://nikolay-istomin.livejournal.com/3057934.html.

This account is also consistent with the location of key pieces of wreckage scattered over the wider crash site radius. It shows M17 turning back on itself, after being struck initially. If this was the final path, then it completely disapproves the US (US State Department) conspiracy theory that a rebel-controlled BUK missile hit the plane head-on from Snezhnoye (Snizhne). This U-turn then also helps explain why Kiev’s first “leaked conversation of the rebels” (see ‘Kiev’s Botch Social Media Audio’ below) tried to place the rebel’s BUK battery at a completely different location in Debaltzevo, a few kilometers northwest of the main crash site at Grabovo. However, that would not explain the U-turn, which they tried so much to conceal – for it points to the Ukrainian jet fighter.

As part of their PR damage-control exercise, Washington released this Google Map-style graphic on Tuesday July 22nd, illustrating its theory that the rebel missile battery was now located in Snezhnoye:

Attachment 26604

Incredibly, Washington’s latest evidence/theory, depicted above, put their alleged rebel firing position in an entirely new spot – at Snezhnoye, and this now contradicts other ‘social media’ items being held-up by John Kerry and President Obama in their “mountain of evidence” (see ‘More Falsified and Sloppy ‘Evidence’ Supplied by SBU’, below).

The irony of this somehow escaped US State Dept. Deputy Spokesperson, Marie Harf during her globally televised ‘intelligence’ briefing on Tuesday (see ‘US Now in Full Retreat and Damage-Control Mode’, below).

Almost certainly, the US government already has a comprehensive communications, satellite and radar data set which could either corroborate, or disprove what Russia has released. The fact that Washington only has this Google graphic to offer to the public indicates that what it has… may not be what it wants.

Whistleblower: A Spanish Air Traffic Controller in Kiev

All evidence pointing to a Ukrainian Su-25 fighter jet in the same frame as MH17, also validates the testimony of ‘Carlos’, an ATC contractor in Kiev. ETN received information from an air traffic controller (Borispol Airport) in Kiev on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17:


“This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and was working in the Ukraine. He was taken off duty as a civil air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately after a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine killing 295 passengers and crew on board. The air traffic controller suggested in a private evaluation and basing it on military sources in Kiev, that the Ukrainian military was behind this shoot down. Radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down. Military air traffic controllers in internal communication acknowledged the military was involved, and some military chatter said they did not know where the order to shoot down the plane originated from. Obviously it happened after a series of errors, since the very same plane was escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared from radar.”

‘Carlos’ was reporting from the Kiev airport in real time on Twitter, of the downing of MH17 as the tragedy was taking place — during that very time and in the very next hour – only to disappear immediately, along with his Twitter account.

Again, real mounting evidence which points to an obvious cover-up by Kiev and its NATO partners.


This is a long and in depth article. Continue here.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/2...e-flag-attack/

Following on from this excellent and in depth article. I thought the following radio show broadcast by 21st century is also a very well researched and comprehensive overview and deconstruction of the MH17 'incident' with Patrick Henningsen and guests with some new infomation I had not heard before.

Episode #44 – SUNDAY WIRE: ‘Declassified: The MH17 Files’ with Patrick Henningsen, Dean Ryan and Basil Valentine.

This week’s edition of THE SUNDAY WIRE will be broadcasting LIVE from the Valley of the Sun, as host Patrick Henningsen presents a declassified stack of additional new material after compiling an independent investigation of MH17 - one of the seminal events of the 21st century – the airline disaster of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 over Eastern Ukraine, and what he’s discovered is shocking. Later on, to discuss US news and other lesser known scandals, we’re joined by LA-based commentator Dean Ryan for the Ryan Report, and in the third hour, Basil Valentine returns to the fold for the latest on Europe’s identity crisis, Israel’s massacre in Gaza, bumbling heads of state, and Westminster’s elite paedophile playground.

Strap yourselves in and lower the blast shield - this is your brave new world…

*WARNING THIS EPISODE CONTAINS EXPLICIT LANGUAGE AND ADULT THEMES*

listen here.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/2...sil-valentine/


peace.

[MorningSong]

Here's an older article I found at Cider's link at Global Research... just some more dots to put on the radar....

NATO Maneuvers with Georgia and Ukraine, Threaten War with Russia
By Alex Lantier
Global Research, April 03, 2014
World Socialist Web Site 3 April 2014

NATO is provacatively seeking to install its forces on Russia’s borders, moving to recruit Georgia and Ukraine’s unelected, pro-Western regime to the military alliance, a move that threatens a NATO-Russia war.

NATO and Georgian officials met yesterday in Brussels to plan talks on a Membership Action Plan (MAP) to admit Georgia into NATO as early as September....

.........................................

“At the meeting of foreign ministers in June, we will examine the progress being made by all four candidate countries on the path of rapprochement with NATO,” he said, referring to Georgia, Macedonia, Montenegro, and Bosnia-Herzegovina. “We will present a report related to this issue, and a decision to forward will be adopted at the summit.”

This is part of an aggressive military escalation by NATO, which is planning troop deployments and military exercises all along Russia’s western borders—in Ukraine, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania. Its moves to directly ally with Georgia, a country in the Caucasus that borders on Russia and attacked Russian forces in 2008, underscores the danger of a Russia-NATO war posed by this escalation.

The NATO meetings with Georgia followed comments by US Secretary of State John Kerry on Monday, signaling US interest in including both Ukraine and Georgia in NATO. He said, “The United States joins our allies in reaffirming that NATO’s door remains open to any European country in a position to undertake the commitments and obligations of membership, and that can contribute to security in the Euro-Atlantic area.”

He did not explicitly mention Georgia or Ukraine, as some NATO countries, like Germany and France, reportedly still oppose rapidly admitting Georgia—a position they took amid the 2008 Georgian war provoked by US-backed Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili’s attack on Russian peacekeepers in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. However, both Berlin and Paris backed the installation of an unelected pro-Western government in Ukraine in a fascist-led putsch in Kiev this February.

The Russian Foreign Ministry replied to Kerry by pointedly warning Ukraine not to join NATO. It said that previous discussions of membership in NATO “led to freezing of Russian-Ukrainian political communications, to headaches in the relationship between NATO and Russia and, what is the most dangerous, to the deepening of the split of Ukrainian society, the majority of which doesn’t support the idea of Ukraine entering NATO.”

The statement added that future cooperation between Ukraine and Russia, including on economic issues, “will largely depend on the actions Ukraine takes in its foreign policy.”

By moving ahead towards a formal military alliance with Georgia, NATO effectively dismissed these Russian warnings. They are escalating pressure on Russia by signaling that each ethnic powder keg on Russia’s borders can be turned into a pretext for war. Were Georgia to join NATO, Washington and the major European Union (EU) powers would be committed under Article 5 of the NATO treaty to go to war with Russia if fighting broke out again between Russia and Georgia.

NATO’s offer of such guarantees to the regime in Kiev, where six ministries are controlled by violent anti-Russian Ukrainian fascists from the Svoboda Party or the Right Sector militia, would throw open the doors to countless provocations against Russia. Such provocations are all the more likely, in that the pro-Western Ukrainian regime is highly unstable, pledged to carry out deep and unpopular austerity measures against the Ukrainian working class.

Ukraine’s unelected Prime Minister Arseniy Yatseniuk has boasted that his government consists of “political suiciders,” because its domestic policies will arouse such popular opposition.

The NATO moves directly raise the danger of world war, should Ukrainian or Georgian provocations trigger mutual escalation between Russia and the imperialist alliance. This underscores the devastating geo-strategic implications of the dissolution of the USSR, which has thrown the entire region open to reckless maneuvers by the Western imperialist powers and their fascistic local proxies in various ex-Soviet republics.

The 2008 Georgian war, as recounted by US diplomat Ronald Asmus in his book A Little War That Shook the World, gives a stark example of how a pro-Western regime can launch a military assault on Russia to deal with its own internal tensions. He recounts the Saakashvili regime’s response to the Russian declaration of the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia—itself a response to the Western powers’ declaration of the independence of Kosovo from Serbia.

Saakashvili, Asmus writes, acted on “his conviction that he would never survive politically if he stood by and did nothing. That still did not mean it was a wise choice. President Saakashvili began a war his allies had warned him not to start, a war they would not support, and a war that he could not win.”

According to Asmus, Saakashvili modeled his plans on offensives like Operation Storm, the 1995 Croatian military offensive that carried out the ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Croatia.

Saakashvili, in fact, did enjoy the close support of Western governments and political operatives, however. “A large part of what was referred to as the ‘mafia’—a loose collection of American and European think tanks, pro-democracy NGOs, journalists, and other veterans of the [NATO] enlargement debate of the 1990s—now found itself gathering at conferences and workshops in Tbilisi [the Georgian capital] and neighboring capitals, debating how the West should respond,” Asmus notes.

This Western “mafia” was well aware of Saakashvili’s plan for military aggression against Russian peacekeepers and regularly discussed them with Georgian officials. “Many of us referred to it as the ‘land grab’ scenario. Such conversations usually took place in private settings—at Saakashvili’s home, in his chancellery late at night, or during one of Georgia’s favorite pastimes: drinking. Maps were brought out or drawn on napkins as Georgian officials thought out loud about what-they-would-do-if scenarios,” Asmus writes.

Ultimately, the drunken speculation of Saakashvili and his contacts in the Western “mafia” about how to best carry out ethnic cleansing and military aggression led to a poorly coordinated offensive and a predictable Georgian defeat at the hands of Russia. The NATO powers declined to get involved in a conflict with Russia that could rapidly escalate into nuclear war.

The moves to include the Kiev regime and Georgia in NATO are designed to change this situation, by presenting Russia with a situation where the NATO powers are diplomatically compelled to intervene on the side of their right-wing proxies.

They are creating a situation where the desperate regime of “political suiciders” in Kiev, acting on its own drunken plans worked out with the Western mafia, might similarly launch military provocations against Russia in an attempt to extricate itself from its internal crises, triggering a military escalation leading to global war.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/nato-ma...russia/5376482

[MorningSong]

Wow! Impressive letter to Obama from Senior U.S. Intelligence Officers:

Senior U.S. Intelligence Officers: Obama Should Release Ukraine Evidence

Preface: With the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over Ukraine turning a local civil war into a U.S. confrontation with Russia, former high-level U.S. intelligence veterans released a statement today urging President Obama to release what evidence he has about the tragedy and silence the exaggeration and rush to judgment. (The whole post is a must-read; but we at Washington’s Blog have added bolding for emphasis.)

Signatory Bill Binney – the former senior technical director at the NSA, and a man who battled the Soviet Union for decades – tells Washington’s Blog:

In my analytic efforts to predict intentions and capabilities down through the years, I always made sure that I had multi-factors verifying what I was asserting. So far, I don’t see that discipline here in this administration or the IC [i.e. the United States intelligence community].

Posted with permission of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity.

MEMORANDUM FOR: The President

FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)

SUBJECT: Intelligence on Shoot-Down of Malaysian Plane

Executive Summary

U.S.–Russian intensions are building in a precarious way over Ukraine, and we are far from certain that your advisers fully appreciate the danger of escalation. The New York Times and other media outlets are treating sensitive issues in dispute as flat-fact, taking their cue from U.S. government sources.

Twelve days after the shoot-down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17, your administration still has issued no coordinated intelligence assessment summarizing what evidence exists to determine who was responsible – much less to convincingly support repeated claims that the plane was downed by a Russian-supplied missile in the hands of Ukrainian separatists.

Your administration has not provided any satellite imagery showing that the separatists had such weaponry, and there are several other “dogs that have not barked.” Washington’s credibility, and your own, will continue to erode, should you be unwilling – or unable – to present more tangible evidence behind administration claims. In what follows, we put this in the perspective of former intelligence professionals with a cumulative total of 260 years in various parts of U.S. intelligence:

We, the undersigned former intelligence officers want to share with you our concern about the evidence adduced so far to blame Russia for the July 17 downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17. We are retired from government service and none of us is on the payroll of CNN, Fox News, or any other outlet. We intend this memorandum to provide a fresh, different perspective.

As veteran intelligence analysts accustomed to waiting, except in emergency circumstances, for conclusive information before rushing to judgment, we believe that the charges against Russia should be rooted in solid, far more convincing evidence. And that goes in spades with respect to inflammatory incidents like the shoot-down of an airliner. We are also troubled by the amateurish manner in which fuzzy and flimsy evidence has been served up – some it via “social media.”

As intelligence professionals we are embarrassed by the unprofessional use of partial intelligence information. As Americans, we find ourselves hoping that, if you indeed have more conclusive evidence, you will find a way to make it public without further delay. In charging Russia with being directly or indirectly responsible, Secretary of State John Kerry has been particularly definitive. Not so the evidence. His statements seem premature and bear earmarks of an attempt to “poison the jury pool.”

.....................

If You’ve Got the Goods…

If the U.S. has more convincing evidence than what has so far been adduced concerning responsibility for shooting down Flight 17, we believe it would be best to find a way to make that intelligence public – even at the risk of compromising “sources and methods.” Moreover, we suggest you instruct your subordinates not to cheapen U.S. credibility by releasing key information via social media like Twitter and Facebook.

The reputation of the messenger for credibility is also key in this area of “public diplomacy.” As is by now clear to you, in our view Secretary Kerry is more liability than asset in this regard. Similarly, with regard to Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, his March 12, 2013 Congressional testimony under oath to what he later admitted were “clearly erroneous” things regarding NSA collection should disqualify him. Clapper should be kept at far remove from the Flight 17 affair.

What is needed, if you’ve got the goods, is an Interagency Intelligence Assessment – the genre used in the past to lay out the intelligence. We are hearing indirectly from some of our former colleagues that what Secretary Kerry is peddling does not square with the real intelligence. Such was the case late last August, when Kerry created a unique vehicle he called a “Government (not Intelligence) Assessment” blaming, with no verifiable evidence, Bashar al-Assad for the chemical attacks near Damascus, as honest intelligence analysts refused to go along and, instead, held their noses.

We believe you need to seek out honest intelligence analysts now and hear them out. Then, you may be persuaded to take steps to curb the risk that relations with Russia might escalate from “Cold War II” into an armed confrontation. In all candor, we see little reason to believe that Secretary Kerry and your other advisers appreciate the enormity of that danger.

In our most recent (May 4) memorandum to you, Mr. President, we cautioned that if the U.S. wished “to stop a bloody civil war between east and west Ukraine and avert Russian military intervention in eastern Ukraine, you may be able to do so before the violence hurtles completely out of control.” On July 17, you joined the top leaders of Germany, France, and Russia in calling for a ceasefire. Most informed observers believe you have it in your power to get Ukrainian leaders to agree. The longer Kiev continues its offensive against separatists in eastern Ukraine, the more such U.S. statements appear hypocritical.

We reiterate our recommendations of May 4, that you remove the seeds of this confrontation by publicly disavowing any wish to incorporate Ukraine into NATO and that you make it clear that you are prepared to meet personally with Russian President Putin without delay to discuss ways to defuse the crisis and recognize the legitimate interests of the various parties. The suggestion of an early summit got extraordinary resonance in controlled and independent Russian media. Not so in “mainstream” media in the U.S. Nor did we hear back from you.

The courtesy of a reply is requested.

Prepared by VIPS Steering Group

Do take the time to read the whole (long) letter at the link:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-mh1...russia/5393959

[Operator]

Well, I think the video is confusing too. But the idea is food for thought.
In fact it would make sense that if a bomb was used the (extensive?) preparations were done
on another similar plane in another location. Especially if you want to control and conceal it.
Like special placed explosives that leave minimal trace and make the plane disintegrate in
mid-air.

In the MH370 thread I already pointed out once that what's missing is not a flight but a plane.
That's in fact a huge difference and understanding that maybe key to understanding/solving
cases like this. The numbers with prefix 9M- numbers are more or less the same as car license
plates and are designated to one physical plane.

A physical plane is used to perform a flight identified by a flight number. Flight numbers are
reused in a frequent cycle like days or weeks. Each flight with the same number could be
performed by different physical planes.

I hope this helps ... maybe some more explanation later.

[Hervé]

Posted by Billy (here)
[...]

Following on from this excellent and in depth article. I thought the following radio show broadcast by 21st century is also a very well researched and comprehensive overview and deconstruction of the MH17 'incident' with Patrick Henningsen and guests with some new infomation I had not heard before.

Episode #44 – SUNDAY WIRE: ‘Declassified: The MH17 Files’ with Patrick Henningsen, Dean Ryan and Basil Valentine.

This week’s edition of THE SUNDAY WIRE will be broadcasting LIVE from the Valley of the Sun, as host Patrick Henningsen presents a declassified stack of additional new material after compiling an independent investigation of MH17 - one of the seminal events of the 21st century – the airline disaster of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 over Eastern Ukraine, and what he’s discovered is shocking. Later on, to discuss US news and other lesser known scandals, we’re joined by LA-based commentator Dean Ryan for the Ryan Report, and in the third hour, Basil Valentine returns to the fold for the latest on Europe’s identity crisis, Israel’s massacre in Gaza, bumbling heads of state, and Westminster’s elite paedophile playground.

Strap yourselves in and lower the blast shield - this is your brave new world…

*WARNING THIS EPISODE CONTAINS EXPLICIT LANGUAGE AND ADULT THEMES*

listen here.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/2...sil-valentine/


peace.

Listening... impressive!

Updated article at: http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/2...e-flag-attack/

[EC1000]

Thanks for that. I'm into numerology as well. Funny I have always gravitated towards the number 7, but that’s probably because my b-day is 7/14/70. Incidentally, I learned a few years ago that 7/14 was a lucky b-day because it was also Osiris' b-day. I wonder if that’s why its bastille day in France. Anyway, I am derailing your thread-please forgive me.

Back to the video-what happened of note on 7/20? That wasn't they day the plane was shot down was it? (I haven’t had my coffee yet)

Posted by Buddha's Palm (here)
Numerology of interest:

MH 370 --> 3*7 = 7*7*7
Boeing 777
Disappeared March 7, 2014 (UTC time) --> 3*7 = 7*7*7 and 2+0+1+4 = 7

MH 17 --> 1*7 = 7
Boeing 777
Shot down on July 17, 2014 --> July = 7, 1*7 = 7, 2+0+1+4 = 7

A web search turned up this after posting the above content:
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative...o-2994400.html

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=QYmViPTndxw

This video was streamed live on January 15, 2014: January = 1 --> 1+1+5 = 7, 2+0+1+4 = 7

OK, that concludes today's numerology fix...

[jackovesk]

U.S. is militarizing Ukraine to invade Russia. Sergei Glazyev

Wednesday, July 30, 2014

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=nWT5HM_NMlI

[Roisin]

What about the war of semantics? In my view, regardless that the US and Russia are engaged in this current battle, but only by proxy, as politicians, political scientists and talking heads in the media will relentlessly remind us on a daily basis, as far as I'm concerned, the US and Russia are at war with each other now. If each opposing party is making major contributions in any way, shape or form in their support of a regional civil war taking place anywhere, essentially, those major powers who are engaged in such endeavors are themselves at war with each other too at the same time just by doing that. Granted we may not be sending our troops in directly to fight with those on the side of the battle we are supporting, to say that we're not at war with Russia and have not been at war with that country regardless of direct engagement in proxy wars where the West is supporting one side and Russia the other... that continue to be fought at any given time all over the planet, is only a matter of fancy mumbo-jumbo politicized semantics and nothing more.

[Cidersomerset]

The Malaysian Airline MH17 Crash: Sixteen Central Issues Which Cannot be Ignored

Wednesday 30th July 2014 at 10:11 By david-icke





‘In establishing who was behind the shooting down of MH17, there are a number of
central issues as well as factual evidence which cannot be overlooked:’


1. Malaysian Airlines confirmed that the pilot was instructed to fly at a lower
altitude by the Kiev air traffic control tower upon its entry into Ukraine airspace.
(Malaysian Airlines MH17 Was Ordered to Fly over the East Ukraine Warzone)

2. The flight path was changed. We still don’t know who ordered it, but we know it
was not Eurocontrol:


MH17 was diverted from the normal South Easterly route over the sea of Azov to a
path over the Donetsk. Oblast. (The Flight Path of MH17 Was Changed. July 17
Plane Route was over the Ukraine Warzone)

According to Malaysian Airlines “The usual flight route [across the sea of Azov] was
earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organisation. The
International Air Transportation Association has stated that the airspace the aircraft
was traversing was not subject to restrictions.”

…

The regular flight path of MH17 (and other international flights) over a period of ten
days prior to July 17th ( day of the disaster), crossing Eastern Ukraine in a
Southeasterly direction is across the Sea of Azov (click on the article link below to
see the map). While the audio records of the MH17 flight have been confiscated by
the Kiev government, the order to change the flight path did not come from
Eurocontrol. Did this order to change the flight path come from the Ukrainian
authorities? Was the pilot instructed to change course? (Malaysian Airlines MH17
Was Ordered to Fly over the East Ukraine Warzone)

3. The presence of the Ukrainian military jet was confirmed by Spanish air traffic
controller “Carlos” at Kiev Borispol airport shortly after the plane was shot down, as
well as eyewitnesses in Donetsk. (How American Propaganda Works: “Guilt By
Insinuation”, Spanish Air Controller @ Kiev Borispol Airport: Ukraine Military Shot
Down Boeing MH#17

The Spanish air traffic controller documented the event on Twitter as it happened.
He claimed it was not an accident, that the Ukrainian authorities shot down MH17
and were trying to “make it look like an attack by pro-Russians” . His Twitter
account was closed down shortly after the tragedy. Although his account has yet to
be fully corroborated, some of his claims have been confirmed by Malaysian Airlines
and the Russian authorities.

There have been some reports to the effect the Spanish Air controller is fake and
that the twitter message were sent out of London. Upon further investigation, the
Spanish Air Controller conducted several media interviews in the last 2-3 months,
see his interview with RT (Spanish Air Controller @ Kiev Borispol Airport: Ukraine
Military Shot Down Boeing MH#17)

4. Russia has made available public radar and satellite imagery as evidence. Its
images suggest the following:


a) Kiev’s regime deployed anti-air missile systems in Donetsk in and around the
area where flight MH17 crashed.

b) An Ukrainian warplane SU-25 trailing flight MH17

c) the report pointed to the possibility of an air-to-air attack on MH17

d) the report also pointed to inconsistencies pertaining to the reports of the
Ukrainian air traffic control

The Russian authorities did not come to any conclusion regarding who was to blame
for shooting down the plane. (MH17 Show & Tell: It’s the West’s Turn – Russian
Satellites and Radars Contradict West’s Baseless Claims)

5. The U.S., despite its global spying apparatus, has not shown any radar or
satellite imagery to back its claim that Russia and the Eastern-Ukrainian opposition
are responsible for the downing of MH17. The evidence it has presented so far is
weak and based on pro-Kiev documents consisting of YouTube videos and various
social media – “all of which are admittedly unverifiable and some of which is
veritably fabricated.”:


Is US intelligence simply reading blogs? Or are the blogs somehow a clearinghouse
of US intelligence? Or are the blogs fabrications by US intelligence in an attempt to
frame Russia? One in particular, “Ukraine at War,” is a definitive collection of
fabrications, biased propaganda, and dubious claims that appear to precede “US
intelligence” claims. (Assigning Blame to East Ukraine Rebels: US Appeals to “Law
of the Jungle” in MH17 Case)

6. “The Russian Defense Ministry pointed out that at the moment of destruction of
MH-17 an American satellite was flying over the area”:


The Russian government urges Washington to make available the photos and data
captured by the satellite.(How American Propaganda Works: “Guilt By Insinuation”)

7. A U.S. intelligence source claimed the “U.S. intelligence agencies do have
detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful
missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian
government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms”. These images
could confirm the evidence presented by Russia to the effect that Kiev’s regime
deployed anti-air missile systems in Donetsk in and around the area where flight
MH17 crashed. (Fact number 4, Whistleblower: U.S. Satellite Images Show
Ukrainian Troops Shooting Down MH17)

8. Russia called for an expert independent investigation:


President Putin has repeatedly stressed that the investigation of MH-17 requires “a
fully representative group of experts to be working at the site under the guidance
of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).” Putin’s call for an
independent expert examination by ICAO does not sound like a person with
anything to hide. (How American Propaganda Works: “Guilt By Insinuation”)

9. The U.S. claimed, without evidence, but “with confidence” that Russia was involved:


[On July 20, the US Secretary of State, John Kerry confirmed that pro-Russian
separatists were involved in the downing of the Malaysian airliner and said that it
was “pretty clear” that Russia was involved. Here are Kerry’s words: “It’s pretty
clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia into the hands of
separatists. We know with confidence, with confidence, that the Ukrainians did not
have such a system anywhere near the vicinity at that point and time, so it
obviously points a very clear finger at the separatists.” (Ibid.)

10. U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry's statement above regarding Russian
involvement is contradicted by the Russian satellite photos and numerous eye
witnesses on the ground. (Ibid.)

11. US intelligence officials said there is no evidence of the Russian government’s
involvement, also contradicting John Kerry's statement above. (US Intelligence on
Malaysian Flight MH17: Russia Didn’t Do It. “US Satellite Photos do not Support
Obama’s Lies”, The author refers to this news item by the Associated Press: US
INTELLIGENCE: No 'Direct' Russian Involvement In Downing Of MH17)

12. A few hours after the crash, Kiev authorities presented a video in which the
opposition admitted shooting down the plane. Experts who studied the video
concluded that it was a fabrication:


“The tape’s second fragment consists of three pieces but was presented as a single
audio recording. However, a spectral and time analysis has showed that the dialog
was cut into pieces and then assembled. Short pauses in the tape are very
indicative: the audio file has preserved time marks which show that the dialog was
assembled from various episodes.” (Ibid.)

The encoding of the video file shows it was created on July 16, the day before the
plane was shot down. This information remains to be confirmed, but if it is
accurate, it would mean that the Ukrainian authorities shot the plane down and
fabricated evidence to frame the opposition (Did Ukraine Fabricate Evidence to
Frame Russia for MH17 Shoot Down?, How American Propaganda Works: “Guilt By
Insinuation”)

13. John Kerry “referred to a video that the Ukrainians have made public showing
an SA-11 unit heading back to Russia after the downing of the plane with 'a missing
missile or so.'” The video was “posted on the Facebook account of the Ukrainian
Interior Minister.”According to numerous sources the video was “taken in or near
Krasnoarmeisk”, a town under Kiev's control since May and located “ 120
kilometers from the Russian border and 80 kilometers from where the Malaysian
Boeing 777 crashed”:


At least one other clip of the “Russian Buk” that has been made available also
suggests that the Ukrainians are showing their own equipment. I’m still working on
researching that one for you. (Key Piece of Video “Evidence” for Russian
Responsibility for Malaysian Plane Shootdown Debunked)

14. Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema said the Ukrainian opposition did
not possess a Buk missile system:


“Ukrainian Interior Minister Anton Gerashchenko said on July 17 that the Malaysia
Airlines Boeing 777 airliner had been downed by the Buk missile system...Ukrainian
Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema told Ukrainian Pravda newspaper on
Friday: 'After the passenger airliner was downed, the military reported to the
president that terrorists do not have our air defense missile systems Buk and
S-300... These weapons were not seized'” (Militias Do Not Have Ukrainian Buk
Missile System — Ukraine General Prosecutor)

15. The MH17 incident is used to wage economic war against Russia. Sanctions
imposed in the wake of the event, without any evidence of Russian implication, are
used to weaken the ruble and destabilize the Russian Monetary system. (The
Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crash: Financial Warfare --against Russia, Multibillion
Dollar Bonanza for Wall Street)

16. In 1962, the U.S. Joint Chief of Staff planned Operation Northwoods, a
secret "false flag operation" (declassified) in which a civilian airliner was to be shot
down and blamed on the Cuban government. The objective was to manufacture a
pretext to wage war on Cuba. (The Implementation of Operations Northwoods was
turned down by President John F. Kennedy).


The downing of MH17 and the reaction of the US authorities and media bear strong
similarities with the scenario depicted in Operation Northwoods, according to author
R. Teichmann:


"Among other things the document proposed the following. I [Teichman] have
inserted in bold (in parenthesis) my comments to illustrate why the MH-17 incident
could be a re-run of the proposed Operation Northwoods:

It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban
aircraft (a BuK Anti-Aircraft missile system supplied by Russia to the ‘Separatists”
in eastern Ukraine) has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner (Malaysian
Airlines MH-17) en route from the United States (Amsterdam, Schipol airport) to
Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama, or Venezuela (Kuala Lumpur) .

It is possible to create an incident which will make it appear that Communist Cuban
MIGs (Eastern Ukraine ‘Separatists’) have destroyed a USAF aircraft (Malaysian
passenger aircraft) over international waters (their territory) in an unprovoked
attack. (Framing Russia? Fabricating a Pretext to Wage War: Flight MH-17
and “Operation Northwoods”)


Read more: The Malaysian Airline MH17 Crash: Sixteen Central Issues Which Cannot be Ignored


http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-mal...gnored/5393296

[Cidersomerset]

Coordinated Sanctions Aim at Russia’s Ability to Tap Its Oil Reserves

Wednesday 30th July 2014 at 10:14 By david-icke






THE NEW YORK TIMES.......


‘The United States and Europe kicked off a joint effort on Tuesday intended to curb Russia’s
long-term ability to develop new oil resources, taking aim at the Kremlin’s premier source of
wealth and power in retaliation for its intervention in Ukraine.

In announcing coordinated sanctions, American and European leaders went beyond previous
moves against banking and defense industries in an effort to curtail Russia’s access to Western
technology as it seeks to tap new Arctic, deep sea and shale oil reserves. The goal was not
to inhibit current oil production but to cloud Russia’s energy future.’

The new strategy took direct aim at the economic foundation of Russia, which holds the
largest combined oil and gas reserves in the world.


The growth of the oil industry in the last two decades has powered Russia’s economic and
geopolitical resurgence since the collapse of the Soviet Union and enriched allies of President
Vladimir V. Putin. Russia pumps about 10.5 million barrels of oil a day, making it among
the largest producers.


“The biggest edge that Western energy companies still have is their technological edge — that’s
why these sanctions have the potential to have significant impact,” said Michael A. Levi, an
energy expert at the Council on Foreign Relations. “Chinese companies can’t step in and provide
shale technology where U.S. companies are blocked. They can provide capital; they can provide
people. They can’t fill in on the technology front.”

The technology cutoff could be important because Russia is only now at the early stages of
developing new Arctic, deep sea and shale resources. Most of its current production comes from
depleted Siberian deposits that will eventually run out. And several Western oil companies have
been working with Russia to expand their resources.

ExxonMobil has a joint venture with Rosneft, the state-owned oil giant, to develop Arctic oil, and
is scheduled to start drilling in the Kara Sea within weeks. BP, which owns 19.75 percent of Rosneft,
just signed a joint venture with the Russian firm in May to search for shale oil in the Volga-Urals region.

Even though BP announced higher quarterly profits on Tuesday, its stock was hammered by the
sanctions news, falling 3 percent. BP warned investors bluntly that further sanctions “could adversely
impact our business and strategic objectives in Russia.”




Read more: Coordinated Sanctions Aim at Russia’s Ability to Tap Its Oil Reserves


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/30/wo...ssia.html?_r=2


==============================================================

[Cidersomerset]

Global Elite Agitating for War Against Russia

Wednesday 30th July 2014 at 10:22 By david-icke





‘Victoria Nuland — who acted as the front person for the State Department’s coup in
Kiev — bluntly expressed the opinion of the United States toward the European Union
back in February.

Nuland employed a choice expletive when she dismissed the glacial movement of EU
apparatchiks and their apparent political paralysis in response to the State Department’s
covert effort to install a cooperative regime in Ukraine.

The MH17 downing was engineered to move the EU and public consensus in the
direction of open confrontation with Russia. The EU does not want to appear indifferent
and lackadaisical to the exploitatively propagandized tragedy, so it will lend its support
for a new round of sanctions and, most importantly, the neocon introduced Senate bill
2277, the so-called “Russian Aggression Prevention Act of 2014” more appropriately
dubbed the World War III bill.’

Read more: Global Elite Agitating for War Against Russia


Congress and establishment media blame Russia for MH17 downing without evidence


http://www.prisonplanet.com/global-e...st-russia.html


======================================================



Russia preparing to develop Gaza gas field

Wednesday 30th July 2014 at 10:25 By david-icke





‘In a significant political and economic development, Palestinian President Mahmoud
Abbas met Jan. 23 with Russian President Vladimir Putin. The meeting came as a
prerequisite to officially sign an investment agreement aiming to develop the Gaza
offshore gas field in the Mediterranean Sea. It is only logical to assume that this step
will raise the ire of Israel. The latter does not appreciate the role Russia plays in the
region, especially since Israel has never come to an agreement with Russia.’

Read more: Russia preparing to develop Gaza gas field

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/busi...eld-gaza.html#

[Cidersomerset]

Church & playground shelled in Eastern Ukraine - aftermath footage

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=dyfuMubvX1w

Published on 30 Jul 2014


Wooden church and a nearby playground got under shelling in Gorlovka on July 29.
A local woman was heavily injured as the shell also hit the bus station in front of the
church. Gorlovka has witnessed fire intensification for the past days as Ukrainian army
ratchets up pressure at Donetsk People’s Republic militia who are in control of the area.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Sanctions won't hit Russia as badly as West wants, it's show of strength by EU/US'

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=SGr8CTQyyyA

Published on 30 Jul 2014


EU leaders have backed the US sanctions. They also agreed to impose their own measures
on Russia, which could potentially hurt the country's financial and energy sectors. For more
on this, Stuart Elliott, the Senior Managing Editor at Europe & Africa Oil News, joins RT.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------






Kiev still preventing investigators from reaching crash site.........Why aren't Obama
Cameron and the rest shouting at Kiev. They would soon be shouting at Putin
if the rebels were stopping the investigators......





30 July 2014 Last updated at 17:01 Share this

Ukraine conflict: Army claims strategic town in Donetsk

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=cgQbPnFJk14

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28559482

[Roisin]

A question: In terms of a one world gov't, which one is the lesser evil? One that's run by the West or one that's run by Russia and China? Of course, each one, the West and the East, seek world domination in terms of their own "one world gov't".... which side would you prefer to be the victor?

[Operator]

Posted by Roisin (here)
A question: In terms of a one world gov't, which one is the lesser evil? One that's run by the West or one that's run by Russia and China? Of course, each one, the West and the East, seek world domination in terms of their own "one world gov't".... which side would you prefer to be the victor?

Main question is: are there sides or is it all one and the same ?

I referred to this in this post:

Or are they trying to let us like Putin so much that we are driven in his hands to take over
the world (Perestroika deception)?

Perestroika deception ... the book or more on what it is about.

Strangely enough Rick Wiles from TruNews has spent a few shows on this topic a few weeks before July 17th:

- http://www.trunews.com/tuesday-june-...4-j-r-nyquist/
- http://www.trunews.com/wednesday-jun...eception-pt-2/
- http://www.trunews.com/friday-july-4...eception-pt-3/

Please use as a side note only. It's actually not the original topic of this thread.

[linksplatinum]

(Check one) ______ model number ________ one specific plane
Actually neither one of these. 9M-MRC, 9M-MRD, and 9M-MRO are all registration numbers

MH370 is the flight that "disappeared" earlier this year. MH370 was supposed to have been an MR-____ and it:
Supposedly 9M-MRO was what was claimed as MH-370, but I am thinking that the registration number was 9M-MRD, and was probably the true registration number of MH-370 all along, or possibly there was a change in decals @ the Diego Garcia secret base, or both decals of these planes were changed to create a lot of confusion

(check one) ____was ___wasn't _____is still unknown.
answer above

MH17 was supposed to have been an MR-____.
9M-MRD or so we've been told BUT it could have been 9M-MRO

Photos (passenger and Reuter's Israeli) of the actual plane that left Amsterdam show that it was an MR-_____.
9M-MRC which was actually in Kuala Lumpur on July 17th unless the flight logs have been tampered with?

Photos of the crashed plane show that the plane was an MR-_____, though it was painted to appear like an MR-______.
9M-MRD and were shown as such

And what about the plane stored in Tel Aviv, where does that fit in?:
Not quite sure about this plane

It does, because __________________________________________________ __.

It doesn't, because___________________________________________ ________.

It is unknown_so far maybe something will surface on it later__________

It was used to add to the confusion___of course but there are always breadcrumbs with these false flags that eventually get figured out, so I would think that now that the aircraft parts serial numbers would be the tell all _______

Flight logs show that the MR-_9M-MRC___________ was actually in _Kuala Lumpur, based on the flight logs____________, so couldn't have been in__Amsterdam, unless some jackass is cooking the log books which I wouldn't rule that out completely yet___________.

Since a lot of this is still under investigation, we may see newer leads just like this one too to stir up more spin or maybe there is some truth to it?
http://investmentwatchblog.com/new-m...cBB4Wd05RH3.99


NEW MH17 SENSATION: German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets.
July 28th, 2014

BY JOHN WARD
ukrainejetsSurface to air missile attack ruled out as calibre of cockpit bullet holes puts Ukraine pilots in the frame for MH17 murders

This is what a German pilot-cum-air technology expert Peter Haisenko has just published on the subject of the MH17 disaster (my emphases):

‘The misfortune of the Malaysian MH 017 is known to all. The flight
recorder is in England and is being evaluated. What can come of this?
May be more than you want to accept….if you look at the image of
Cockpit-Fragments, this picture is certainly shocking.
Entry And Exit holes from bullets in the area of the Cockpit. This is not speculation, but analysis of clear facts: the cockpit
shows clear evidence of bullet holes. You can see the entry holes and
some exit points. The edges of the bullet holes are bent inwards,
these are much smaller and round in shape. A 30mm calibre. The exit
holes are less well formed and the edges are torn outwards.
Furthermore it is visible that the exit holes have torn the double
aluminium skin and bent them outwards. That is to say, splinters from
inside the cockpit blew through the outside of the cabin. The open
rivets have also been bent outwards….There is only one conclusion one can make, and that is that this: the
aircraft was not hit by a missile. The damage to the aircraft is
exclusively in the cockpit area….

Armour-Piercing Ammunition. Russia has published radar data that a
Ukranian SU 25 was close to MH 017. this corresponds with Spanish air
traffic control that two Ukranian fighter aircraft were in direct
contact with MH 017. Examine the weaponry of the SU 25: it is fitted
out with a 30mm cannon Type GSch-302 /AO-17A, with 250 rounds of
splintering exploding bullets on a belt – shrapnel rounds. The cockpit
of MH 017 was hit from TWO sides, as there are entry and exit holes on
the same side….’
Very compelling stuff, is it not?

Now read this (also German) article by defence expert Bernd Biederman, who offers equally sound reasons why the
shooting down could NOT have been from a surface to air missile:

‘ the shooting down of the Malaysian
Boeing on July 17 in the Eastern Ukraine “could not have been hit by a
surface to air defense missile” .

This is the assessment of retired Colonel Bernd Biedermann in an
article for the daily newspaper published in Berlin “new Germany”
(Thursday edition). Had splinters from a surface to air missile hit
the plane, it would have immediately caught fire, argues the NVA
anti-aircraft missile specialist. His reasoning is because of the
“enormous frictional heat that the splinters generate on penetrating
the fuselage. A single splinter contains the same kinetic energy as a
40-ton freight car hitting the buffers at 60 kilometers per hour.” In
the case of the Malaysian Boeing, scattered fires had broken out after
the impact with the ground, because hot debris from the aircraft had
come in contact with combustible materials.

Biedermann is familiar with Soviet and Russian air defense technology,
he led units in the duty officer system in East Germany and taught at
the Military Academy in the field of anti-aircraft missile troops.’

Articles are beginning to appear across the Web to the effect that Angela Merkel is disturbed by (and growing tired of) the incessant US propaganda being emitted in favour of its energy agenda….and so we must perhaps in turn view these articles in the light of her alleged new agenda concerning the creation of an alternative bloc to that of America. (More on this here in the near future).

But spin or not, these analyses make sense. The US State Dept has now shifted its position from ‘Russian atrocity’ to ‘tragic accident’. The above opinions suggest that neither are true: they suggest strongly that the Ukrainian air force took out MH17.

[Operator]

I found this on Project Camelot's website ...

LETTER FROM DUTCH CITIZEN RE BODIES FROM FLT MH17

I have to say I had a similar 'feeling' a couple of days ago. Not so much that I thought it was related to MH370 or so.

But I got a vision about how people are deceived ... Sure the whole thing with coffins, one coffin per car,
the motorcade etc. looked very serene and finally a feeling of some dignity. But maybe it was a bit too
much of what people WANTED to see (again, it was a hunch ... not an opinion).

I was triggered by thoughts like:
- the bodies originated from the Netherlands and now they are back (with no deeper meaning), nobody saw them in between.
- nobody saw what was in the body bags, train, coffins etc.
- they found body 'parts' ... how come there is a specific number of coffins?
- why a military base in Hilversum ?

I even looked up what's on the military base in Hilversum ... it's a medical facility, so that makes sense.

At first I was curious if it was related to the Marechaussee too ... because you know what, that's who
they've sent to the crash site and guess again who the guardians are on Schiphol ...







I have to admit, it's only part of all their tasks and they are very good at what they do. But could there be
a connection to a small faction inside that organization that helps keep things under wraps?
Unfortunately we cannot exclude any possibility ...

Since the new search party arrived at the crash site it is no longer accessible. Because of fights in the vicinity
but apparently now also because of mines. There can be 2 different reasons however:

- either someone does not want to allow more investigations done because the truth might be discovered or
- someone is afraid that the crash site is further 'salted' to prove a 'desired' outcome

And in the meantime the whole situation is abused for political means without conclusive data from
the flight- and voice recorders (data is already days available now).

[Cidersomerset]

What happens when Russians are killed on the border ?


'I’m very scared, crying': Ukrainian conflict scrapes into Russian border

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Cbnw31MVmv8

Published on 30 Jul 2014


The Ukrainian conflict is now very close to the Russian border. A number of times
shells have crossed the frontier, already resulting in one death. International
monitors, urged by Moscow to look into the situation, have now arrived in the area.
RT's Roman Kosarev reports from a Russian village where people have been forced
to run and hide from hostilities.