A Flat Earth not Round ...?

[Hervé]

It seems we are int the middle of a full swing psy-op / social engineering experiment in cognitive dissonance:

Cognitive dissonance:
In psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time, or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values.[1][2]

Leon Festinger’s theory of cognitive dissonance focuses on how humans strive for internal consistency. When inconsistency (dissonance) is experienced, individuals tend to become psychologically uncomfortable and are motivated to attempt to reduce this dissonance, as well as actively avoiding situations and information which are likely to increase it.[1]

More there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Festinguer also co-authored a book titled “When prophecy fails”:

Festinger and his collaborators, Henry Riecken and Stanley Schachter, examined conditions under which disconfirmation of beliefs leads to increased conviction in such beliefs in the 1956 book When Prophecy Fails. The group studied a small apocalyptic cult led by Dorothy Martin (under the pseudonym Marian Keech in the book), a suburban housewife.[49][50] Martin claimed to have received messages from “the Guardians,” a group of superior beings from another planet. The messages puportedly said that a flood would destroy the world on December 21. The three psychologists and several more assistants joined the group. The team observed the group firsthand for months before and after the predicted apocalypse. Many of the group members quit their jobs and disposed of their possessions in preparation for the apocalypse. When doomsday came and went, Martin claimed that the world had been spared because of the “force of Good and light”[51] that the group members had spread throughout the world. Rather than abandoning their discredited beliefs, group members adhered to them even more strongly and began proselytizing with fervor.

Festinger and his co-authors concluded that the following conditions lead to increased conviction in beliefs following disconfirmation:

1. The belief must be held with deep conviction and be relevant to the believer’s actions or behavior.

2. The belief must have produced actions that are difficult to undo.

3. The belief must be sufficiently specific and concerned with the real world such that it can be clearly disconfirmed.

4. The disconfirmatory evidence must be recognized by the believer.

5. The believer must have social support from other believers.[52]

Festinger also later described the increased conviction and proselytizing by cult members after disconfirmation as a specific instantiation of cognitive dissonance (i.e., increased proselyting reduced dissonance by producing the knowledge that others also accepted their beliefs) and its application to understanding complex mass phenomena.[53]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Festinger]

Any resemblance to any contemporary group is absolutely non-fortuitous…

PS: My earlier attempt at trying to make it work: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post845650

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Ron Mauer Sr (here)

The influence of the Coriolis effect on windage adjustment (left/right compensation) seems incorrect as described here.

The rotational speed of the earth is the same rotational speed (not projectile spin caused by barrel twist) of the projectile launched from a firearm.

I am thinking no compensation for Coriolis effect is required.

I'm looking for further understanding.

I think it simply means (in lay terms) that by the time the bullet has flown a mile and a half, even at great speed, the earth has rotated a tiny bit. Essentially, at that distance, you're aiming at a moving target.

Posted by DarMar (here)

Why Qantas is managed by LAN in some cases?

It's extremely common nowadays for allied airlines to share routes (and planes!). Passengers booking on either Qantas or LAN would be on exactly the same plane (and sitting next to each other, one might have paid twice as much for the seat... go figure.)

Posted by Hervé (here)
It seems we are in the middle of a full swing psy-op / social engineering experiment in cognitive dissonance:

Yes, I agree. There is some circumstantial evidence that the entire Flat Earth debate has been planted as a diversion (and confusion). For that reason, although some of the science is interesting (and I was enjoying reading about the life of Eratosthenes, discovering several things I didn't know about him) I've felt several times that this thread should be closed... not because of 'censorship of free speech or free thinking', but because this thread creates just the kind of distracting morass that may be INTENDED to be created.

Marren summed it up pretty well here, in his post #229 yesterday:
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post994716

Posted by Marren (here)
Flat earth? Seriously? We have serious issues in this world and you are debating flat earth theory.

Exactly.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Ron Mauer Sr (here)

The influence of the Coriolis effect on windage adjustment (left/right compensation) seems incorrect as described here.

The rotational speed of the earth is the same rotational speed (not projectile spin caused by barrel twist) of the projectile launched from a firearm.

I am thinking no compensation for Coriolis effect is required.

I'm looking for further understanding.

I think it simply means (in lay terms) that by the time the bullet has flown a mile and a half, even at great speed, the earth has rotated a tiny bit. Essentially, at that distance, you're aiming at a moving target.

I agree the target is moving, but the velocity and direction vectors due to earth's rotation are the same for the target and the projectile.

Still puzzled.

[Selkie]

I suppose that over-the-horizon radar is part of the conspiracy to cover up the flat-earth, too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-the-horizon_radar

addition I used to live out near Beale Air Force Base, and I could see one of these PAVE PAWS things from my house,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAVE_PAWS

[Ted]

Posted by Ron Mauer Sr (here)


I agree the target is moving, but the velocity and direction vectors due to earth's rotation are the same for the target and the projectile.

Still puzzled.

That's what I was thinking too. Maybe they are talking about the force which makes whirlpools rotate in different directions on each side of the equator. It would be sort of like putting a little "English" on the bullet.
It is interesting that a spinning bullet will travel farther than a non spinning bullet, all other factors being equal, but that's for another discussion.

[Ted]

I've felt several times that this thread should be closed... not because of 'censorship of free speech or free thinking', but because this thread creates just the kind of distracting morass that may be INTENDED to be created.

Oh, I don't know, it does bring up some interesting physics topics. It's also fascinating to observe the level of denial some people have. Not that I blame them in a sense. We are bombarded with so many lies that to question even the basic knowledge we have is not a bad thing. Besides, if governmental agencies insist the world is round, that alone immediately makes it suspicious!

[Selkie]

Posted by Ted (here)

I've felt several times that this thread should be closed... not because of 'censorship of free speech or free thinking', but because this thread creates just the kind of distracting morass that may be INTENDED to be created.

Oh, I don't know, it does bring up some interesting physics topics. It's also fascinating to observe the level of denial some people have. Not that I blame them in a sense. We are bombarded with so many lies that to question even the basic knowledge we have is not a bad thing. Besides, if governmental agencies insist the world is round, that alone immediately makes it suspicious!

(my emphasis)

Lol...that's true. No doubt the info I provided from Wikipedia will be rejected for the same reason.

[loveoflife]

Posted by Hervé (here)
It seems we are int the middle of a full swing psy-op / social engineering experiment in cognitive dissonance:

Cognitive dissonance:
In psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time, or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values.[1][2]

Leon Festinger’s theory of cognitive dissonance focuses on how humans strive for internal consistency. When inconsistency (dissonance) is experienced, individuals tend to become psychologically uncomfortable and are motivated to attempt to reduce this dissonance, as well as actively avoiding situations and information which are likely to increase it.[1]

More there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Festinguer also co-authored a book titled “When prophecy fails”:

Festinger and his collaborators, Henry Riecken and Stanley Schachter, examined conditions under which disconfirmation of beliefs leads to increased conviction in such beliefs in the 1956 book When Prophecy Fails. The group studied a small apocalyptic cult led by Dorothy Martin (under the pseudonym Marian Keech in the book), a suburban housewife.[49][50] Martin claimed to have received messages from “the Guardians,” a group of superior beings from another planet. The messages puportedly said that a flood would destroy the world on December 21. The three psychologists and several more assistants joined the group. The team observed the group firsthand for months before and after the predicted apocalypse. Many of the group members quit their jobs and disposed of their possessions in preparation for the apocalypse. When doomsday came and went, Martin claimed that the world had been spared because of the “force of Good and light”[51] that the group members had spread throughout the world. Rather than abandoning their discredited beliefs, group members adhered to them even more strongly and began proselytizing with fervor.

Festinger and his co-authors concluded that the following conditions lead to increased conviction in beliefs following disconfirmation:

1. The belief must be held with deep conviction and be relevant to the believer’s actions or behavior.

2. The belief must have produced actions that are difficult to undo.

3. The belief must be sufficiently specific and concerned with the real world such that it can be clearly disconfirmed.

4. The disconfirmatory evidence must be recognized by the believer.

5. The believer must have social support from other believers.[52]

Festinger also later described the increased conviction and proselytizing by cult members after disconfirmation as a specific instantiation of cognitive dissonance (i.e., increased proselyting reduced dissonance by producing the knowledge that others also accepted their beliefs) and its application to understanding complex mass phenomena.[53]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Festinger]

Any resemblance to any contemporary group is absolutely non-fortuitous…

PS: My earlier attempt at trying to make it work: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post845650

Not to forget the other two. Confirmation Bias, and Motivated Reasoning. Which there are plenty of on both sides here. It is always necessary to take our own and others Confirmation Bias, Cognitive Dissonance, and Motivated Reasoning when taking in any information.

Psychology’s Treacherous Trio: Confirmation Bias, Cognitive Dissonance, and Motivated Reasoning

[Dennis Leahy]

Posted by DarMar (here)
... Why flat earth had begun spreading like plague in this times? would be good question.

...

My opinion is because we've been lied to so frequently, some of us start to believe that whatever we have been told, the opposite must be true. It is reactionary. Many lies have come to the surface for examination, and it leaves some of us with an overwhelming feeling that everything we've ever been told must be a lie.

I support everyone questioning everything, using our own senses and our own intellect to discern truth from fiction. When we have examined many things we thought were true, we'll find that, on some things, we have changed our mind - with good reason (facts exposed.) We'll also find many things we had accepted as true do turn out to be true, even under close examination. (And, the "grey zone" category: some of what we examine will leave us scratching our heads, as we are unable to determine whether something is true or false.)

It has been said that quantum physics invalidates all classical physics, and that is both true and false - but from the standpoint of physical beings interacting in the 3D world, quantum physics is mostly irrelevant. The fact that (according to quantum physics), there are no solids, liquids, and gasses - only vibrations - doesn't really do us much good if two of us are walking down the sidewalk toward each other. If one of us does not move, our physical bodies will bump (despite the fact that we really are just vibrations.) I'd be willing to bet that if two mystics converge on the same spot walking down the sidewalk, and both refuse to yield, they also will bump into one another. So, understanding metaphysics and being mystical does not disintegrate or negate 3D reality - at least at the gross level.

In my opinion, the flat earth theory is completely understandable up until about the 12th or 13th century. Once sailing ships probed out in every direction, and none fell over the edge, the issue was settled. Now, anyone with doubts could send a camera up using helium balloons, and photograph the curvature of the Earth - from anywhere on Earth.

I'd like to ask if there are any that believe in a flat Earth, if you can provide a map of the planet that you think is accurate, and propose an experiment that would prove to you whether this is correct or not. I'd like to know which continents you believe are near the "edge" of earth, and which direction an aerial camera would have to be flown to see over the edge.

[Hervé]

There is another experience in my life which cannot be accommodated with any flat earth geometry and which goes along this epiphany:

... wait a minute... if earth is flat then the entire disk is under daylight all at once...

Chucks, there goes that theory!

... because, one day, I experienced a very funny thing and that's going from an alternation of days and nights to a 24/7 sunlight time... all in one "day"... another one of those flat earth's geometry impossibilities.

That was the the year I also experienced 4 (four) different and distinct Spring times... figure that one out with a flat earth geometry.

[ofelas]

After following the videos and the debate regarding this topic for the last 6 months, I guess the only thing we can do is question. Question everything. Mark Sargent has several really good points in his video series, the most obvious being why there are no videos showing the earth as a rocket takes off, showing us gradually what the earth looks like as it reaches high enough altitudes to show the entire earth. It should be such an obvious question, and such an easy thing to do, as NASA has supposedly sent rockets into space regularly since, the 50's, right?? That WOULD be the money shot, the golden goose and the most interesting video for all of humanity to watch.. But no, nothing whatsoever has been presented to us, after billions and billions of dollars spent...

As a follower of PC and PA since the beginning (yes, I have watched every single video, most of them at least 4-5 times), I am observing something else which I find really interesting. There seems to be a consensus in the community on what is considered "accepted" fringe research (UFO's, aliens, Secret Space program, etc). And there the line has been drawn, and this seems to keep the community together. When other more far reaching ideas enter the picture (FE or Crrow777's work), all of a sudden, the community cannot accept these "outrageous" ideas, because a patent on the accepted paradigm has been established. This is the reason I tend to stay away from joining a community (such as this) actively, as you have to "go along to get along", and many people have invested (and sacrificed) a lot of time, effort (and probably personal credibility) among their peers/family/colleagues etc to arrive at something they feel is a comfortable paradigm. I find it really interesting to see to how easily both Bill and Kerry (and I love them both) and many people on this forum dismisses the FE theories, by trying to explain and rationalize every argument so it fits neatly into their (now) established understanding of how the world works... Keep in mind, that many of the "outrageous" ideas presented by PC were also dismissed in the same way by the "then established" alternative/new age community less then 10 years ago... This is akin to being young and having an open mind, you usually will check out any idea to arrive at your truth. When you transition into adulthood, you quickly figure what to say and stand for in order to be viewed as a "rational and intelligent adult". This is, I feel, what has happened to the PC/PA community. The minds of the hard core followers have now shut down (being in their "formative years" from 2006-2010, perhaps?), and a patent on the truth has now effectively been put in place. Anything beyond the Secret Space program, John Lear, Alien/Human hybrids, Pete Peterson, etc is now considered ludicrous..

Oh well, end of rant....

[Dennis Leahy]

Posted by ofelas (here)
... Mark Sargent has several really good points in his video series, the most obvious being why there are no videos showing the earth as a rocket takes off, showing us gradually what the earth looks like as it reaches high enough altitudes to show the entire earth. It should be such an obvious question, and such an easy thing to do, as NASA has supposedly sent rockets into space regularly since, the 50's, right?? That WOULD be the money shot, the golden goose and the most interesting video for all of humanity to watch.. But no, nothing whatsoever has been presented to us, after billions and billions of dollars spent...

...

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=zyq5eN9C4Cc

(this shows the view up to 50 miles up)

How far above the Earth would the rocket need to be to see the entire Earth without a fisheye lens? With a fisheye lens, the whole Earth would be in the photo much lower than 50 miles. I guess you'd have to know the lens curvature as well.

Posted by ofelas (here)
...This is, I feel, what has happened to the PC/PA community. The minds of the hard core followers have now shut down (being in their "formative years" from 2006-2010, perhaps?), and a patent on the truth has now effectively been put in place. Anything beyond the Secret Space program, John Lear, Alien/Human hybrids, Pete Peterson, etc is now considered ludicrous..

In my opinion, this characterization of the "hard core followers" (I assume means the most interactive?) paints with much too wide a stroke. Avalon is what you focus on at Avalon, as well as what you contribute to (or ignore.) Each of us members, as individuals, decide what we believe is true, what might be true, and what is false, but since most members have a limited amount of time that can be dedicated to reading and interacting with others on the forum, each of us also decides what is critically important and what is "ludicrous" - to us.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)

Posted by ofelas (here)
... Mark Sargent has several really good points in his video series, the most obvious being why there are no videos showing the earth as a rocket takes off, showing us gradually what the earth looks like as it reaches high enough altitudes to show the entire earth. It should be such an obvious question, and such an easy thing to do, as NASA has supposedly sent rockets into space regularly since, the 50's, right?? That WOULD be the money shot, the golden goose and the most interesting video for all of humanity to watch.. But no, nothing whatsoever has been presented to us, after billions and billions of dollars spent...

...

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=zyq5eN9C4Cc

(this shows the view up to 50 miles up)

How far above the Earth would the rocket need to be to see the entire Earth without a fisheye lens? With a fisheye lens, the whole Earth would be in the photo much lower than 50 miles. I guess you'd have to know the lens curvature as well.

Posted by ofelas (here)
...This is, I feel, what has happened to the PC/PA community. The minds of the hard core followers have now shut down (being in their "formative years" from 2006-2010, perhaps?), and a patent on the truth has now effectively been put in place. Anything beyond the Secret Space program, John Lear, Alien/Human hybrids, Pete Peterson, etc is now considered ludicrous..

In my opinion, this characterization of the "hard core followers" (I assume means the most interactive?) paints with much too wide a stroke. Avalon is what you focus on at Avalon, as well as what you contribute to (or ignore.) Each of us members, as individuals, decide what we believe is true, what might be true, and what is false, but since most members have a limited amount of time that can be dedicated to reading and interacting with others on the forum, each of us also decides what is critically important and what is "ludicrous" - to us.

Well if flat earth was real you'd be able to see the "antarctic barrier" at the edge of the earth by then. But you can't. Not even close. What explanation could there be for this? A sphere shape is one ...

It doesn't seem to matter how much "flat earth evidence" is debunked, there has been much of it debunked here on this thread (airline flights that supposedly don't exist, perspective sun beams, to name a couple). It might be just me, but if I had a bunch of supposed evidence which is supportive of the other pieces of evidence for something, and half of it was proven untrue, I would probably start to realize that the value that I thought was created in the cross supporting of the evidence, was mostly diminished, rather than dismiss it and cling to whatever is left. I would then also start to investigate the opposite and try to prove that true. Why? because I want the truth, not "to believe something".

If a flat earther took the time to try to prove the earth is not a sphere, first by taking all the math and theory that indicates it IS a sphere, then setting up experiments that try to prove those theories. If it cannot be done, then there is an indication that the earth may be flat ... But I have seen no such evidence from this perspective.

I challenge any flat earthers do do this exercise, I'd be curious to see the results.

[DeDukshyn]

It's funny how so many flat earthers just repeat stuff they hee in a lame youtube video, and never check for themselves ... how long to find that video Dennis? And we're supposed to try to take these regurgitated ideas seriously?

EDIT:

I can't see the Antarctic barrier here either ... the earth just 'ends" as though it were a sphere ...

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=UEuOpxOrA_0

Here is a better one ... continuous from launch pad to orbit to ocean -- full trip no cuts. The camera was on a booster rocket, and while it doesn't capture much on the way up, it does capture a round, spherical earth on it's way down with no Antarctic barrier or a full view of the flat visible ...

So easy to find these. My point? Flat earther's (Mark Sargent et al - and yes I watched almost all his videos) say these videos don't exist, these flights don't exist, etc. Flat earther's are obviously not researchers, they are regurgitators of mostly religious ideas ... they don't do original research for a reason, and they don't seem to bother checking if any of their "evidence" is valid or not. The evidence for that has come out in this thread.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=69Wks7phnCE

[DarMar]

Both videos are Disney cartoons payed by your tax money.
Delivered to you by intranet you paying.
Templar idea from swiss. controllers of time,space, belief,money and all of most of here believe.
Decently successful as i can see.

Neat stuff.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by DarMar (here)
Both videos are Disney cartoons payed by your tax money.
Delivered to you by intranet you paying.
Templar idea from swiss. controllers of time,space, belief,money and all of most of here believe.
Decently successful as i can see.

Neat stuff.

Riiiight, a Disney cartoon, where's your evidence for that? Let's not state things without ANY evidence for this exercise, please. .... I get it now. Jesus will be floating in a cloud any day now to save us all ...

[DarMar]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

Posted by DarMar (here)
Both videos are Disney cartoons payed by your tax money.
Delivered to you by intranet you paying.
Templar idea from swiss. controllers of time,space, belief,money and all of most of here believe.
Decently successful as i can see.

Neat stuff.

Riiiight, a Disney cartoon, where's your evidence for that? Let's not state things without ANY evidence for this exercise, please. .... I get it now. Jesus will be floating in a cloud any day now to save us all ...

No one can save us but ourselves, if we want to. But needs some action to make reaction. Something beyond half-action.
But to be honest, personally I don't see it happening on mass scale. Story of saviour is just to distract from inner space. Some choose Jesus, some Satan. Light or dark. Sphere or flat.. It is just about choosing between offerings, offerings to the gods.
There are too many of those who can stand by some V8 car and say "what a beauty" to be able to understand whole picture of how that come to life, what sacrifices and resources raping needed to be executed for that machine.

Until than, best to go to work and in spare time browse web for neat ideas and proof videos.
Webs are not made for sport.

where's your evidence for that?

My evidence is that i can recreate same video with less than 10$ budget and fact that you have not been on that rocket to witness that.

Where is your evidence that it is not cartoon?

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by DarMar (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

Posted by DarMar (here)
Both videos are Disney cartoons payed by your tax money.
Delivered to you by intranet you paying.
Templar idea from swiss. controllers of time,space, belief,money and all of most of here believe.
Decently successful as i can see.

Neat stuff.

Riiiight, a Disney cartoon, where's your evidence for that? Let's not state things without ANY evidence for this exercise, please. .... I get it now. Jesus will be floating in a cloud any day now to save us all ...

No one can save us but ourselves, if we want to. But needs some action to make reaction. Something beyond half-action.
But to be honest, personally I don't see it happening on mass scale. Story of saviour is just to distract from inner space. Some choose Jesus, some Satan. Light or dark. Sphere or flat.. It is just about choosing between offerings, offerings to the gods.
There are too many of those who can stand by some V8 car and say "what a beauty" to be able to understand whole picture of how that come to life, what sacrifices and resources raping needed to be executed for that machine.

Until than, best to go to work and in spare time browse web for neat ideas and proof videos.
Webs are not made for sport.

Give me evidence for it being a Disney cartoon. Give me evidence that because you might see sunbeams in a perspective view, it means that the sun is only a few miles up. Give me evidence that you cannot book flights that fly around the southern hemisphere. Give me evidence that all the flights that have to be greater than 13,500 kms if the earth is flat cannot be booked. Give me any evidence for the mechanism that turns night to day on the flat earth model. You can't. Enough said. At least the sphere earther's here are providing evidence, regardless of if it is being dismissed without thought to the larger systems.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by DarMar (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

Posted by DarMar (here)
Both videos are Disney cartoons payed by your tax money.
Delivered to you by intranet you paying.
Templar idea from swiss. controllers of time,space, belief,money and all of most of here believe.
Decently successful as i can see.

Neat stuff.

Riiiight, a Disney cartoon, where's your evidence for that? Let's not state things without ANY evidence for this exercise, please. .... I get it now. Jesus will be floating in a cloud any day now to save us all ...

No one can save us but ourselves, if we want to. But needs some action to make reaction. Something beyond half-action.
But to be honest, personally I don't see it happening on mass scale. Story of saviour is just to distract from inner space. Some choose Jesus, some Satan. Light or dark. Sphere or flat.. It is just about choosing between offerings, offerings to the gods.
There are too many of those who can stand by some V8 car and say "what a beauty" to be able to understand whole picture of how that come to life, what sacrifices and resources raping needed to be executed for that machine.

Until than, best to go to work and in spare time browse web for neat ideas and proof videos.
Webs are not made for sport.

where's your evidence for that?

My evidence is that i can recreate same video with less than 10$ budget ....

...

I don't believe that at all - at least not something we'd have a hard time determining which of the two was real. so that doesn't amount to evidence for me. If you want to give it a shot, I'll give you $20CAD if you can make one that compares in believability to the ones posted thus far. Ten to cover your budget and 10 because I'd be impressed

[DarMar]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

Posted by DarMar (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

Posted by DarMar (here)
Both videos are Disney cartoons payed by your tax money.
Delivered to you by intranet you paying.
Templar idea from swiss. controllers of time,space, belief,money and all of most of here believe.
Decently successful as i can see.

Neat stuff.

Riiiight, a Disney cartoon, where's your evidence for that? Let's not state things without ANY evidence for this exercise, please. .... I get it now. Jesus will be floating in a cloud any day now to save us all ...

No one can save us but ourselves, if we want to. But needs some action to make reaction. Something beyond half-action.
But to be honest, personally I don't see it happening on mass scale. Story of saviour is just to distract from inner space. Some choose Jesus, some Satan. Light or dark. Sphere or flat.. It is just about choosing between offerings, offerings to the gods.
There are too many of those who can stand by some V8 car and say "what a beauty" to be able to understand whole picture of how that come to life, what sacrifices and resources raping needed to be executed for that machine.

Until than, best to go to work and in spare time browse web for neat ideas and proof videos.
Webs are not made for sport.

Give me evidence for it being a Disney cartoon. Give me evidence that because you might see sunbeams in a perspective view, it means that the sun is only a few miles up. Give me evidence that you cannot book flights that fly around the southern hemisphere. Give me evidence that all the flights that have to be greater than 13,500 kms if the earth is flat cannot be booked. Give me any evidence for the mechanism that turns night to day on the flat earth model. Give me any evidence for why toilet flushes rotate in the direction determined by its location on the earth if the coriolis effect doesn't exist?. You can't. Enough said. At least the sphere earther's here are providing evidence, regardless of if it is being dismissed without thought to the larger systems.

You sound kinda irritated by this conversation, and that is not good.
If you did read things that i wrote, you would conclude that I'm not FE believer same as I'm not SE believer.
If evidence for both would be out, you think that this thread would exist?
You think that people would browse FE or SE ideas?

We would know for deff...
If evidence for 9-11 would exist, you think we would discuss it here?
If evidence for about money bankster conspiracy would be available, you would need to explain it to someone?
Do you think that FE people are less intelligent than you?
So you need to link NASA fakery images to them to prove your point?

Those NASA dudes are old school NAZIS with agenda older than us two together, what do you expect from them exactly? a math solution?

How can you know toilet flush scenery, when there is so much toilets on planet? on which toilet you exactly mean? polar one?

one of works i was on in early days in Luminous from 2008:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=GFF9lAdnwfg

can you tell me are people in suits real or animated?
is important to continue evidencing evidence.

look even George Clooney was in space orbit too..

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=eGPiK4tlB44

this is kind of work i did through 2006-2007, couldn't find better quality online tho.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=2buyJ_wy9M0

so believe me, when i see fakery i know one.
we used to completely remake video. They knew to film people using any phone and we would change their phone in video. In most cases looked better than original. BUNKER studios were famous for completely rewriting videos.. Art of faking reality

what ever you needed.. more people, less people, erase or add junk on table.. buildings? stars? space? no problemo..

Look, I liked Star Trek and Stargate and all that programming stuff.. It is very nice idea. But all films are like star trek, even nowadays terminology came from Roddenberry's mind.. like teleports, phasers, quantum drive!!
But it is kinda time to wake up
There is no Santa Claus.