Not Quite Farewell

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Eram (here)
Hi Bill,

Perhaps I'm missing some vital information here, but it seems to me that Althena has now been unsubscribed for only one remark that was out of line. A remark that many of us could have made in a moment of carelessness.

Thanks for the excellent question. The real issue was a prevalent attitude that was simplistic, brazen and (almost always) simply copied-and-pasted from other blogs, along with often hysterical, dramatic headlines. That's not the best way to conduct intelligent debate.

Moreover, it's not an example we want to see set, or (passively) to set ourselves by seeming to condone it.

The forum is not Facebook or Twitter, or a series of cheap-and-crude YouTube comments. It's a discussion forum dedicated and committed to facilitating learning on a wide range of fronts. We want members and guests to come here, and feel

• Better informed, and more knowledgeable
• Inspired and motivated (where possible/applicable)
• Not quite so alone (as many feel they are)
• Encouraged to see the entire human race as a vast spectrum of usually good people, not always well-informed and often manipulated, living lives in sometimes difficult (or even appalling) conditions, and usually all striving for the same goals

In contrast (@ Whiskey, please read this! ), I'd like to highlight an exemplary exchange, from another thread. The forum at its finest. It starts here, and is a dialog between bsbray and Satori:

bsbray:

What is your experience in law again, Satori?
I'm just asking since, like I said, I have actually studied Constitutional law, and I have no idea where you are coming up with this stuff.

Satori:

I wondered when you would ask me that. I graduated from the University of San Francisco School of Law in 1980. I have been a trial lawyer for over 36 years. I am licensed in several jurisdictions, including the United States Supreme Court. I have handled numerous cases arising under the US Constitution. (I am also a student of Constitutional history.)
Here's one case along the lines of the challenge you put to me: Carlesi v. New York, 233 U.S. 51 (1914) There the state prosecuted a violation of the states forgery laws after the defendant was pardoned or received clemency for violation of the analogous federal law.
I've said my piece on this subject and I am done. I wish you well.

bsbray:

Good. I'm actually very happy to see that and I'm happy to have been wrong about it.
What I was taught was basically that state courts had no sovereignty in the face of federal court decisions, and this does seem to be the popular perception. I'm sure you remember when the federal courts struck down state challenges to Obamacare by ridiculously claiming that the states had no authority to challenge the law. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. You have no chance in a joke system like that.
I'm aware that the original intent of the Constitution was along the lines of what you're arguing and I'm glad that there are people who are still keeping this tradition alive.

Cheers.

Satori:

Cheers to you too!

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Oh, now you done it. Wall of text headed straight for us!

There seems to be a lot of confusion over my reasons for wanting to leave and now I will test your endurance with a long and boring post all about it. Since I am lazy, I am posting my email to Bill rather than retype my points. It's rambling and incoherent, but somewhere in there are my thoughts.

Hi Bill,

Your post is persuasive. I will give it some thought.

My reasons for wanting to leave weren't really about the election. You knew I was frustrated with the community before. And yes, that's partly my own ego and arrogance. My own reactivity is an indicator of where I am still wounded and need to grow and heal. Stones to flowers.

I grew weary because it seemed like I was always having the same conversation on Avalon. As a serious student of of Taoism with a dedicated decades-old practice, I kept running into young "know-it-alls" for lack of a better term. The best way I can describe it is to try to talk with people who stand on the beach arguing about what's over the horizon when you consistently do the very difficult and personal work of sailing out there to have a look for yourself.

The other thing is the "Us vs. Them" duality that pervades the conspiracy communities. Many find meaning for their lives by succumbing to what I call "Luke Skywalker Syndrome." It's similar to what Chris Hedges was describing in "War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning".

My tribe, a gathering of extraordinary souls gathered around my Master (whom you have glimpsed in the "out there"), does not fight the good fight. We dissolve the fight. To engage it confrontationally is to enhance it. Fighting against it feeds that power behind it. We don't judge any aspect as good or bad or better than another. There is only the Tao. All else is illusion.

So then the final straw- I was a bit raw from the outbreak of emboldened hate when I logged into Avalon and I encountered a wall of static. For example, I encountered a bunch of nonsense about how all the protests are paid for by Soros. Maybe in a few cases he did, I don't know. But what I do know is that hundreds of people I know personally are not paid by anyone and I've watched thousands organize through social media and campus meetings. They are not paid. Most of them despised Hillary and would probably be protesting if she had won, too.

Then I ran into the post that I quoted and didn't see it challenged. It just felt like Avalon was not a place that would improve my quality of life nor benefit from my input. Since I hadn't really been contributing anyway, I felt like it was time to dust off my sandals.

Some of the responses were clearly of the "Don't let the door hit you" variety. Why not, they don't know me from Agamotto. As for the supportive ones, I was kinda shocked anyone remembered me.

As for my own politics, I am holding the energy for the manifestation of a new progressive party as neither party now represents the people. I understand why people voted for Trump. For many, it's the same reasons many of us donated money to Bernie. But I think anyone who saw Trump as an answer to "the system" should see by his cabinet picks that what will happen now is a final and full entrenchment of the American oligarchy. And you won't hear me say that HRC would have been any better. Maybe probably anyway.

Thanks for reading all this. I needed to get it out. I'll give it some thought. I am very aware that my stating publicly that Avalon is this or that bad thing might hurt your feelings. And for that I apologize. I just had to speak my heart at that time.

Best Regards,

(name removed)

In addition, It wasn't just the one post that pushed me toward the door. That thread had lots of gloating and divisive comments about the whiners and the crybabies. The entire thread disgusted me. Look, people are frightened. Terrified. Children are afraid their parents will be taken from them. People are afraid that they will be beaten, rounded up, and imprisoned for practicing their religion. People are afraid they will lose their health care and social security. People are afraid of war. I have friends in the Ukraine who are seriously concerned for their lives and loved ones. It does not matter if you agree with their reasons. Our brothers and sisters are afraid.

This is a time for compassion. For love. This is not a time for mean-spirited "In your face!" victory dances. If I even have to point that out, then maybe this isn't the right place for me anymore. That is what I was saying.

Now I know some will think that the proper course would be to post my argument in that thread instead of taking my toys and going home. But the reason I took such a long break was because it seemed like making posts like that was all I was doing on Avalon. I even tried to host a thread about nonviolent communication.

Goddess, this post is an awful rambling mess, but there it is.

Dammit. When I sent Bill a request to retire my profile, I was afraid he would talk me out of it. I hate it when people post goodbye threads. Especially when they don't even leave. If I still decide to leave, I won't do it again as I will have already stated my Ninety-five Theses.

You are all right. There is much value in the Avalon community. I should have just waited a few days and maybe talked to Bill on the side. I apologize for the disruption, but I do think it also has value. I know that I can be a hothead. It's part of my charm. I am a Taoist by practice, but a hothead by nature. I also know that some people find me arrogant. That's because I am arrogant. They're not wrong. That's also part of my charm. And so I thank you all for being patient.

So, I am going to stay for now. I think that this thread has been useful to the community, to my surprise. Avalon, please take a pause and ask yourself what kind of community you want to be. What light will you shine forth?

p.s.s. Let's discuss the politics in another thread, mmmkay?

[Sierra]

In addition, It wasn't just the one post that pushed me toward the door. That thread had lots of gloating and divisive comments about the whiners and the crybabies. The entire thread disgusted me. Look, people are frightened. Terrified. Children are afraid their parents will be taken from them. People are afraid that they will be beaten, rounded up, and imprisoned for practicing their religion. People are afraid they will lose their health care and social security. People are afraid of war. I have friends in the Ukraine who are seriously concerned for their lives and loved ones. It does not matter if you agree with their reasons. Our brothers and sisters are afraid.

This is a time for compassion. For love. This is not a time for mean-spirited "In your face!" victory dances. If I even have to point that out, then maybe this isn't the right place for me anymore. That is what I was saying.

You soothe my heart, Whiskey. Thank you.

[Sueanne47]

We need more love on Avalon!

I'm glad you are staying Whiskey..

[lake]

Well I am very much shocked....I find it difficult to read that which I just have .......but I find it more unconscionable to see those who would and have signed their being to it?

[Chester]

man... I sure do like Whiskey_Mystic... that post #62 is such an excellent, honest good post. Thanks and I really hope you stay.

[Deega]

Hey Whiskey_Mystic, to change our mind on things is very important, it's a mental health high at times, you did the right thing to stay, you make a courageous choice, great of you!

[lake]

Posted by Deega (here)
Hey Whiskey_Mystic, to change our mind on things is very important, it's a mental health high at times, you did the right thing to stay, you make a courageous choice, great of you!

Really....No really.......You consider a person who wasn't personally physically harmed but ....well....was.......actually NOT HARMED AT ALL....to be courageous?

I went through the last 60 posts by the criminal already convicted and yes I did see a pattern....He/she had one 4 post disagreement with Flash. Then He/she THANKED Flash.

I could Look at ANY of YOU and find posts which may be considered as harm towards others???

Althena did not need to be banned....nor did C02....nor Jim Rich....nor Sweety.......plus many others.......I do not comprehend that which the forum is trying to create?

Unless.... .......the pattern I saw is of meaning and the reason for the banning!

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by lake (here)

I do not comprehend that which the forum is trying to create?

It seems that maybe you don't.

I can also answer Whiskey here, at the same time (most wonderful post of yours, btw ) -- by referring to what I wrote a few hours ago:

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

The forum is not Facebook or Twitter, or a series of cheap-and-crude YouTube comments. It's a discussion forum dedicated and committed to facilitating learning on a wide range of fronts. We want members and guests to come here, and feel

• Better informed, and more knowledgeable
• Inspired and motivated (where possible/applicable)
• Not quite so alone (as many feel they are)
• Encouraged to see the entire human race as a vast spectrum of usually good people, not always well-informed and often manipulated, living lives in sometimes difficult (or even appalling) conditions, and usually all striving for the same goals.

[lake]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by lake (here)
I do not comprehend that which the forum is trying to create?

It seems that maybe you don't.

Sorry Bill but you seem to have left the most salient point from my post out....the NEXT LINE....

Unless.... .......the pattern I saw is of meaning and the reason for the banning!

and yes I do realize that this is your forum and therefore your 'front room'!

[Eram]

Posted by Whiskey_Mystic (here)

This is a time for compassion. For love. This is not a time for mean-spirited "In your face!" victory dances. If I even have to point that out, then maybe this isn't the right place for me anymore. That is what I was saying.

For me, this is the key sentence of both your disappointment with this forum as well as perhaps your lack of appreciation of what's going on in the world at this moment (and how people with different background and education are dealing with it).

Yes, "in your face victory dances" are out of order in every scenario, ... unless Jim Carry plays the lead.

Yet, there is an almost intuitive recognition by also the less educated part of society, that we are nearing a culmination point and that in order to get to the right side of this, is not possible to reach with love and compassion.

Evil does not always allow us these tools to be the end of our repertoire.

It is time to choose and make a stance.
Every writing on the wall is pointing to that.



I really hope you will become an active poster here again Whiskey.
Your posts are thought provoking and I'm a real sucker for that.

[Debra]

Thank you Whiskey this thread has been a gift in disguise. On a number of levels. And your level of member is highly cherished.

P.S. I love that you know yourself to be arrogant (*smiling*) It's extra nice to get a big glimpse of your study of humanity and holding ground for a healthy evolution.

Keep setting the bar higher. That's what we need.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by lake (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by lake (here)
I do not comprehend that which the forum is trying to create?

It seems that maybe you don't.

Sorry Bill but you seem to have left the most salient point from my post out....the NEXT LINE....

Unless.... .......the pattern I saw is of meaning and the reason for the banning!

This is off-topic here, but if you look at the Moderator Actions thread, where reasons are given (or linked to) for any unsubscriptions that are made -- and that's not very often! -- you should find out all you need to know, if you want to know.

If, after reading the explanations, you don't understand why the members you listed were unsubscribed, I doubt if there's anything more that anyone can do to explain further.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Eram (here)

Posted by Whiskey_Mystic (here)

This is a time for compassion. For love. This is not a time for mean-spirited "In your face!" victory dances. If I even have to point that out, then maybe this isn't the right place for me anymore. That is what I was saying.

For me, this is the key sentence of both your disappointment with this forum as well as perhaps your lack of appreciation of what's going on in the world at this moment (and how people with different background and education are dealing with it).

Yes, "in your face victory dances" are out of order in every scenario, ... unless Jim Carry plays the lead.

Yes. The other mods will confirm that a week or so ago I gently reminded the team NOT to get sucked into the positionality... which is so very easy to do. Everyone has their opinions, sometimes strong, sometimes well-informed, sometimes both. The mods, as individual personalities, are no exceptions.

But it was clear that this was a time of unification that was needed, not further division. Understanding and listening, not conflict. I asked the mods to please be conscious and set an example in anything they posted.

Although I never asked this of the forum members as well, we've all very much appreciated those who are seeking to do exactly the same thing.

[Eram]

Posted by lake (here)

Posted by Deega (here)
Hey Whiskey_Mystic, to change our mind on things is very important, it's a mental health high at times, you did the right thing to stay, you make a courageous choice, great of you!

Really....No really.......You consider a person who wasn't personally physically harmed but ....well....was.......actually NOT HARMED AT ALL....to be courageous?

I went through the last 60 posts by the criminal already convicted and yes I did see a pattern....He/she had one 4 post disagreement with Flash. Then He/she THANKED Flash.

I could Look at ANY of YOU and find posts which may be considered as harm towards others???

Althena did not need to be banned....nor did C02....nor Jim Rich....nor Sweety.......plus many others.......I do not comprehend that which the forum is trying to create?

Unless.... .......the pattern I saw is of meaning and the reason for the banning!

I also took the time to skim a few pages of Althenas posts now and though I agree with you on facts, I can't fault the mods team here.
If they want to up the quality of this forum, who are we to criticize?

People have been unsubscribed for those reasons in the hundreds I guess and after consideration, it seems to me that Althena has just managed to escape final scrutiny so far.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by lake (here)
Althena did not need to be banned....nor did C02....nor Jim Rich....nor Sweety.......plus many others.......I do not comprehend that which the forum is trying to create?

I agree ... that you do not comprehend .

This forum is not like a public highway, on which any legally licensed vehicle, driven by a legally licensed and insured driver, in a safe and legal manner, is welcome to travel.

We endeavor to share our quite varied skills, energies, talents, and experiences toward a constellation of higher purposes, for the betterment and awareness of ourselves, our fellow humans and other life, embodied or not, in this corner of the galaxy. Those who rather too consistently distract from those endeavours may be asked to step aside, at least until such time as they show a change of heart and habit that will likely more often than not support our endeavors.

[Cidersomerset]

For many, it's the same reasons many of us donated money to Bernie.

I Have been posting a lot of AH Goodmans vids on the Hillary thread he was a strong
Bernie fan and donated and eventually voted for Jill Stein . He reviewed the wiki leaks
running up to the election and is carrying on from a realistic social American point of
view and is very good imo....

H. A. Goodman
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDB...dkzFN-A/videos


Good luck mate .............( You just made me look up Taoism ) ...LOL

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism

[lake]

I can agree with your post Paul....may I ask why you also left out the most important part of my post?

The last line?

Edit from Bill: Enough, please. You're derailing the thread. Do take this up with anyone you like by PM -- many thanks.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Posted by Eram (here)

Yet, there is an almost intuitive recognition by also the less educated part of society, that we are nearing a culmination point and that in order to get to the right side of this, is not possible to reach with love and compassion.

Evil does not always allow us these tools to be the end of our repertoire.

I respectfully disagree. Evil and Good are merely concepts. They do not exist outside of the consciousness that creates them. The Sun shines upon the Earth. This is neither good nor evil. A cheetah kills and eats a gazelle. This is neither good nor evil. An earthquake decimates a village. This is neither good nor evil.

When one performs an exorcism or clearing of "negative" spirits, the least productive method is by labeling an entity as "evil" and confronting it as such. The effortless way is to approach it without judgement and understand it. Transform it as in a Tonglen type of practice. Those of you who have studied Aikido are probably familiar with this. Ice to water. Water to gas. The entire universe is enfolded within you. Dissolve it there.

I am no pacifist. I am a pragmatist. I also know that at the end of these lives it does not matter who shot you or why. It doesn't matter that your village was burned to the ground. It is extremely important and all-encompassing right up until that last moment of life. And then it is not. The only thing that matters then is who you have become as a result of the choices that you have made. In a thousand thousand lifetimes, the details are inconsequential.

My Teacher has said to me that we notice the alien invasion with the same amount of alarm that we notice that we are almost out of milk. We notice and we respond, but without getting caught up in the drama. We respond without engaging and getting caught up in the conflict. Because to oppose the other is to give it energy. To focus on it is to enhance it.

Remember how casually Neo combated the Smith at the end of The Matrix once he had awakened to his true nature? Intent of purpose, but without malice.

When the Buddha sat under the Bodhi Tree, an army of demons arose to oppose Him. They threw rocks at Him. The rocks transformed into flowers and fell at His feet.

Enough of my fortune cookie talk. Dr. King wants to say something.

The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral,
begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy.
Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it.
Through violence you may murder the liar,
but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth.
Through violence you may murder the hater,
but you do not murder hate.
In fact, violence merely increases hate.
So it goes.
Returning violence for violence multiplies violence,
adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness:
only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.

-Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

[greybeard]

Its a question of balance--thankfully its not my responsibility to decide as to whether a post is beyond the acceptable or not.
For me respect for others is important, though sometimes I fail in my intention most often thats more to do with content rather than poster.
Respect has also to be earned.

I dont think it realistic in the world of opposites to expect to have only love--only the positive.
The saying "That which brings you pleasure brings you pain" is fairly true. Two sides of the same coin--just depends which side we focus on.
Is the glass half empty or half full sums it up.

Its admirable to want to up the level of posts obviously but if you notice the threads that get the most attention you would probably see that is is the dramatic, headline, grabbers, that get the most attention and are the most divisive
Human nature is evolving though.

Chris