WW3? Ukraine/US vs. Donbass/Russia

[Ravenlocke]

https://twitter.com/mdfzeh/status/1587442219748933633

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[Ravenlocke]

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https://twitter.com/thesiriusreport/...58470717816833

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https://twitter.com/johnpilger/statu...86348012453891

https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/st...72721528619009

[Matthew]

Posted by Mashika (here)
...

But oh well, next time i talk to Vova i'll let him know he's in your thoughts all the time

When did Vova's concern over the Russians in Ukraine cause him to recommend they evacuate Ukraine because it's full of Russian hating nazis? If he cared about people wouldn't that be what happened? He might have but I can't find it. Why should people leave their homes they grew up in?! Yes I see that and I'm not sure I would in that situation either, but I don't see anything to suggest the state took that defensive position and that is a typical reaction for a state. Unless he urged Russians to leave Ukraine for their own safety stat then he's not caring so much about Russians. What's the difference between Russians fleeing Ukraine and Russians staying in Ukraine? Aside from people's safety it's the prize of the territory itself. I can't help but see this from a problem reaction solution point of view and Russia has continuity of leadership to exploit a long position like the west's leaders can only drool over.

Look, ok so there are some people who have literally been saved by Putin and on reflection I was so wrong to say he's nobody's saviour. I'm really sorry about that, to you Mashika; he saved possibly you and plenty of other persecuted Russians. But just as I didn't see things from your point of view please try for a moment to see them from mine: the UK's people have a tenancy to look to authoritative leaders for solutions; SNP or Labour, or the Reform Party... we have a national tenancy to whine and bitch that we need x leader to save us, and leader y is the problem. Russians don't have the same issue, you guys seem to have a healthy skepticism borne from historical reasons. England doesn't have this maturity. We have people who look at Putin then with their UK-ness and herald Putin as a saviour-god world hero in the same way they think x was or y was. Waving Russian flags to rebel against the focus on Ukraine seems healthy, but it easily crosses the line into hero worship. People here don't understand much about it and invest far too much good faith.


What most don't understand about Russia

[Mashika]

I'm going to skip on answering in full for now, since i don't have enough time unfortunately

So i'll just go directly to make a point:

You don't understand what truly happens in Russia and within the government, or how it works

Putin this and Putin that, still the same lag in understanding i see all over the place. Let me explain

The United Russia party, internally, did not want to go to war, they had other plans, they did not care to do this we are doing right now. Instead, there were several attempts to call into the UN and France/Germany to enforce the Minsk agreements that would ensure safety for the people in Donbass, this went on for the most part of the past 7 years, and it did not work

Just before the 'invasion' started, it was found that Ukraine was planning a full invasion of Donbass to retake the land, but not the people, it was meant to cause people to migrate away to a safety land on the Russian side to escape the mass cleansing. This was announced back then, it was completely ignored and shutdown by western media and even the UN, meanwhile, there were around 120,000 soldiers surrounding Donbass and no one reported those news, the maps only displayed Russian army, never the Ukrainian one, and you could see the hundreds of claims that Russia was ready to invade Ukraine (not Donbass, but Ukraine) while no mention of why the Ukrainian army was not at the Russian/Ukrainian border but instead was at the Donbass/Ukrainian border

So here's the think you don't know and understand, and this is why i read what you write and think you don't have any real facts and are very much reaching conclusions based on bad information setup for you by the western corrupted media

There's another party with great power in Russia: The Soviets (officially named "Communist Party of the Russian Federation), yes, that same party that survived after the USSR disbanded is still around

So we have two major political parties:

1. United Russia (anti-soviet)
2. The Communist Party (soviet)

For years, United Russia opposed getting involved directly into the Ukrainian issue, and for years, the Communist Party looked for a way to cause a reaction and in consequence, getting Russia involved in the Ukraine issue

Putin is de-facto leader of the United Russia party

The Communist Party, is the one behind the move to start this "special operation" in Ukraine, they moved pieces around for years to reach this point, all behind the scenes, power movements and strategies and so on

If you think Putin single handedly controls Russia then you are looking at this entire issue with a child-like view of the world. The reality is that there are gigantic internal power struggles day by day and year by year, and lots of very powerful people behind the scenes at the very top levels make constant moves, both from the United Russia and the Communist Party sides

In this case, this entire operation, was pushed and enforced by the Communist Party of Russia, not by United Russia.

You don't understand the complexity of it all, this is not 'Putin's war', that's just a dumb view and narrative created by the west because the leaders of western countries and UN are:

1. Ignorant
2. Dumb
3. Jealous of Putin (Hatred comes out of their mouths in a very visible and deplorable way every time they speak about him)

4. Russophobics
5. Uneducated fools
6. Arrogant
7. Can't get over the cold war mentality (they are too old, too stupid or too demented to get over it)
8. Puppets
9. Dried potatoes
10. Dodo


As i said, this is not Putin's war, this is a war created and controlled by internal political factions based and supported by the Communist Party of Russia, and not by the United Russia party

There is a reason why Putin had to follow through and implement this operation, it was a behind the scenes, internal power move by the communists, we will never know what happened exactly

So i'm sorry to say it like this, but: You don't understand that you don't understand

And Putin did not save my life, i did that on my own, in fact the lack of support and lack of care for the situation back then is exactly why i almost died and then had to do things i regret even right now sometimes. I don't know how you got to that conclusion that Putin did anything at all back then, because he didn't

The most interested party here, in completely obliterating Ukraine and advancing Russia as some kind of new Soviet Union, is the communist party

That's why it even more funny to read when dumb brain dead western media says that Putin wants to rebuild the Soviet Union, that's just dumb, they don't have a clue about what they talk about, that's just plain foolish and ignorant point of view and understanding of the reality of Russia's political scene

But anyways, thanks for replying, and hope something i said at least can be useful to review the issue and reconsider some 'facts and narratives' being pushed around, and if not, then at least i tried

Posted by Matthew (here)

Posted by Mashika (here)
...

But oh well, next time i talk to Vova i'll let him know he's in your thoughts all the time

When did Vova's concern over the Russians in Ukraine cause him to recommend they evacuate Ukraine because it's full of Russian hating nazis? If he cared about people wouldn't that be what happened? He might have but I can't find it. Why should people leave their homes they grew up in?! Yes I see that and I'm not sure I would in that situation either, but I don't see anything to suggest the state took that defensive position and that is a typical reaction for a state. Unless he urged Russians to leave Ukraine for their own safety stat then he's not caring so much about Russians. What's the difference between Russians fleeing Ukraine and Russians staying in Ukraine? Aside from people's safety it's the prize of the territory itself. I can't help but see this from a problem reaction solution point of view and Russia has continuity of leadership to exploit a long position like the west's leaders can only drool over.

Look, ok so there are some people who have literally been saved by Putin and on reflection I was so wrong to say he's nobody's saviour. I'm really sorry about that, to you Mashika; he saved possibly you and plenty of other persecuted Russians. But just as I didn't see things from your point of view please try for a moment to see them from mine: the UK's people have a tenancy to look to authoritative leaders for solutions; SNP or Labour, or the Reform Party... we have a national tenancy to whine and bitch that we need x leader to save us, and leader y is the problem. Russians don't have the same issue, you guys seem to have a healthy skepticism borne from historical reasons. England doesn't have this maturity. We have people who look at Putin then with their UK-ness and herald Putin as a saviour-god world hero in the same way they think x was or y was. Waving Russian flags to rebel against the focus on Ukraine seems healthy, but it easily crosses the line into hero worship. People here don't understand much about it and invest far too much good faith.


What most don't understand about Russia

[kfm27917]

Two bombshell reports by the Associated Press and Washington Post Monday and Tuesday have confirmed that the United States has boots on the ground in the Ukraine conflict. Crucially, these troops are performing tasks separate from mere embassy security.

The American troops are said to be performing "inspections" of US weapon caches after last week the State Department and Pentagon unveiled a new plan to track US-supplied weapons in efforts to implement accountability for the billions of dollars worth of arms and ammunition transferred to Ukrainian forces since near the start of the war eight months ago.

"A small number of U.S. military forces inside Ukraine have recently begun doing onsite inspections to ensure that Ukrainian troops are properly accounting for the Western-provided weapons they receive, a senior U.S. defense official told Pentagon reporters Monday," the AP/WaPo reporting revealed.

more at https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitic...se-front-lines

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Mashika (here)

You don't understand the complexity of it all, this is not 'Putin's war', that's just a dumb view and narrative created by the west because the leaders of western countries and UN are:

1. Ignorant
2. Dumb
3. Jealous of Putin (Hatred comes out of their mouths in a very visible and deplorable way every time they speak about him)
4. Russophobics
5. Uneducated fools
6. Arrogant
7. Can't get over the cold war mentality (they are too old, too stupid or too demented to get over it)
8. Puppets
9. Dried potatoes
10. Dodo

And you could have added

11. Psychopathic
12. Dangerous
13. Malevolent.

[Mashika]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Mashika (here)

You don't understand the complexity of it all, this is not 'Putin's war', that's just a dumb view and narrative created by the west because the leaders of western countries and UN are:

1. Ignorant
2. Dumb
3. Jealous of Putin (Hatred comes out of their mouths in a very visible and deplorable way every time they speak about him)
4. Russophobics
5. Uneducated fools
6. Arrogant
7. Can't get over the cold war mentality (they are too old, too stupid or too demented to get over it)
8. Puppets
9. Dried potatoes
10. Dodo

And you could have added

11. Psychopathic
12. Dangerous
13. Malevolent.

14. Cheap
15. Classless
16. Dirty
17. Elitist
18. Self-entitled
19. Corrupt
20. Pedophiles
21. Biden

.
.
.
.


The possibilities are endless

[Mashika]

Just going to add this, as a last comment about this issue, because i'm really tired and dissapointed that people could not figure this out way before, even with all the evidence out there in plain view

There is a clear, painfully obvious attempt by the communist party, to lead this war, with the single purpose of them getting back in control of Russia

And the dumb, foolish people who support Ukraine and hope with all their soul for Putin to fail and go down, have basically empowered the communist (soviet) party in more ways they could ever imagine. Useful idiots they are

So now, if we see this from a more realistic perspective, the idiots on the west with their little UkroNazi flags are actually enabling and helping the very same Soviet party that controlled the USSR back into power. While also enabling the Nazi groups in Ukraine to regain power and bring up a third world war

And you don't have an idea what the world will go through if that gets to happen. I never imagined a world in which the western world would be so dumb, desperate and retarded, they would help to bring back the USSR and the soviets into control of the biggest stock pile of nuclear weapons and the more advance missiles to deliver them them in the entire planet, out of stupidity and pure hatred for a single person: Vladimir Putin

That's just how stupid and ignorant of reality are all those people with their little Ukrainian flags on their profiles, lol

You were fooled, and not for the first time, like that saying goes "fool me once.."

Truth is, very few people have any basic grasp of what pieces are being moved right now, for what purpose, and who is actually doing the moves behind the puppetry scene

Time to go read and learn about this more, or not, in the end, it is up to you, i won't be talking about this subject


-

Spasibo

[Michel Leclerc]

Posted by Rizotto (here)
(...) Biden himself has several times mentioned nuclear attacks, from either side. He's a senile old man, but I see an undecurrent of guile in his act when making such statements. I wouldn't discount the possibility that he has been carefully coached to specifically raise these nuclear threats, while his senility is used to sow uncertainty as to what is really being planned.

Thank you Rizotto. Yours is indeed the hypothesis that best explains the combination of all relevant elements.

In other posts regarding the medical tyranny, I have suggested that the combination of all the so-called "blunders" and "mistakes" by the authorities ("so called" also by many critical voices) can best be explained as an ultra-sly strategy created by a team spoon-fed by an AI system.

One may similarly explain the politics of the West (starting with Iraq War I, the dismantlement of Yugoslavia etc.), not as a series of blunders (as the Russian leadership calls it, hopefully disingenuously but I fear naively) but as a chaotic whole managed by a team led by an AI system.

In such a hypothesis a president Biden who erratically moves from moderate intelligence to stupidity to nonsense to common sense to psychotic rambling to baby talk becomes explicable when considered as a distance-controlled tool in the AI game.

[Michel Leclerc]

Posted by Mashika (here)
Just going to add this, as a last comment about this issue, because i'm really tired and dissapointed that people could not figure this out way before, even with all the evidence out there in plain view

There is a clear, painfully obvious attempt by the communist party, to lead this war, with the single purpose of them getting back in control of Russia

And the dumb, foolish people who support Ukraine and hope with all their soul for Putin to fail and go down, have basically empowered the communist (soviet) party in more ways they could ever imagine. Useful idiots they are

(...)

Well Mashika. Thank you for this.

Maybe I read you in the past only superficially, but it seems to me that also your well-informed insight may be called "progressive" or "deepening", to use two practice-honed euphemisms.

Please read my preceding remark/post. Would the interaction and entanglement of the policies of the West with the internal tensions within Russia not be explained better (than by referring to the West’s leaders’ endless disqualifications) by their strategies being dictated by artificial intelligence tools?

I may refer to my own postings about the Go tournament between Alphago and Go champion Sedol (which curiously hardly got any echo from other PA posters). AlphaGo was financed by Google. The tournament took place a few years ago. Would it not be reasonable to suppose that there is an OmegaGo now, and that it is strong enough to direct an entire military strategy? (Considering also that the Go tournament was maybe only a smokescreen and that let us say the OmikronGo already existed at that time?). So what would leave such a thing for options to Russia – the champion of all nations ready to fight the Hegemon – if Russia is still playing chess? (Go being notoriously more complex than chess, and more apt at symbolising, modelising many-dimensional asymmetrical warfare?)

And even if that is not the case, and if Russia at least possesses OmegaChess AI, and the West only just yet OmikronGo — would it then not be quite conceivable that the West — and, dear Matthew, by the way, has it occurred to you that practically all the flaws you can see in Russia find a neat correspondent in the West? — would it then not be quite conceivable that the West (being dominated by the "leftists" in Yankee parlance) has long since prompted, supported and applauded Russian communist revanchists in doing what you are describing them to be doing (successfully armwrestling even Vladimir Putin!), because the West in its most recent version is indeed hell-bent on “creative” Chaos everywhere and everywhen?

[jaybee]

Posted by Mashika (here)

There's another party with great power in Russia: The Soviets (officially named "Communist Party of the Russian Federation), yes, that same party that survived after the USSR disbanded is still around

So we have two major political parties:

1. United Russia (anti-soviet)
2. The Communist Party (soviet)

For years, United Russia opposed getting involved directly into the Ukrainian issue, and for years, the Communist Party looked for a way to cause a reaction and in consequence, getting Russia involved in the Ukraine issue

Putin is de-facto leader of the United Russia party

The Communist Party, is the one behind the move to start this "special operation" in Ukraine, they moved pieces around for years to reach this point, all behind the scenes, power movements and strategies and so on

If you think Putin single handedly controls Russia then you are looking at this entire issue with a child-like view of the world. The reality is that there are gigantic internal power struggles day by day and year by year, and lots of very powerful people behind the scenes at the very top levels make constant moves, both from the United Russia and the Communist Party sides

In this case, this entire operation, was pushed and enforced by the Communist Party of Russia, not by United Russia.

You don't understand the complexity of it all, this is not 'Putin's war', that's just a dumb view and narrative created by the west because .............................................

Interesting - thanks for your comments about this - I just pulled out an extract ...

This adds a further dimension to the whole story and would fit with research and the notion that (Western based) Globalist forces and financing were behind the Russian Revolution in 1917 and that it didn't come as a natural, spontaneous development from the People... ?

And they are still at it now....? colluding with and using the Soviets internally as a means to (re) introduce a totalitarian regime to control the land and resources of Russia...and bring it under the influence of the One World Government Agenda...

I've put it very simply but I think that could be the gist of it....?

[Mashika]

Hi Misha,

Posted by Michel Leclerc (here)
Maybe I read you in the past only superficially,

Welp... I guess?

Please read my preceding remark/post. Would the interaction and entanglement of the policies of the West with the internal tensions within Russia not be explained better (than by referring to the West’s leaders’ endless disqualifications) by their strategies being dictated by artificial intelligence tools?

I may refer to my own postings about the Go tournament between Alphago and Go champion Sedol (which curiously hardly got any echo from other PA posters). AlphaGo was financed by Google. The tournament took place a few years ago. Would it not be reasonable to suppose that there is an OmegaGo now, and that it is strong enough to direct an entire military strategy? (Considering also that the Go tournament was maybe only a smokescreen and that let us say the OmikronGo already existed at that time?). So what would leave such a thing for options to Russia – the champion of all nations ready to fight the Hegemon – if Russia is still playing chess? (Go being notoriously more complex than chess, and more apt at symbolising, modelising many-dimensional asymmetrical warfare?)

And even if that is not the case, and if Russia at least possesses OmegaChess AI, and the West only just yet OmikronGo — would it then not be quite conceivable that the West — and, dear Matthew, by the way, has it occurred to you that practically all the flaws you can see in Russia find a neat correspondent in the West? — would it then not be quite conceivable that the West (being dominated by the "leftists" in Yankee parlance) has long since prompted, supported and applauded Russian communist revanchists in doing what you are describing them to be doing (successfully armwrestling even Vladimir Putin!), because the West in its most recent version is indeed hell-bent on “creative” Chaos everywhere and everywhen?

The US has depended on A.I. simulations for some time now, the main reason is the people in control are just simply incompetent or unable to deal with the gigantic amounts of information they need to go through and then to extract a high level view and strategy from it all.

There's a simple reason for that, contrary to what other countries experience, in which they have one or two fronts at any time, the US has turned more than half of the world against them due to bad practices, abuses and all that stuff we don't need to rehash here. So they have way too many fronts they need to deal with every single day, and they can't stop it now. There's no single human capable of handling that scenario where an infinite amount of data is streamed by the minute, so they ended up depending on strategy results from A.I. engines. Other countries have a person or two at the top capable of figuring out what the other side is doing and why, and coming up with strategies to deal with them, the US can't afford that anymore, there is just way too much info and too many fronts/sides to watch for.And a group of people can't do, because there always have to be a central mind or source of the strategy, a leader of some sort that has a global view, what do you do if you don't have a person like that anymore? Replace it with an artificial one

Here's an example of that:
https://www.businessinsider.com/the-...r-games-2019-3

The US has been getting 'its ass handed to it' in war games simulating fights against Russia and China

They used A.I. to simulate war against Russia and China multiple times, the A.I. determined that no matter the scenario, the US would lose every time, so the US officials, being unable to figure out if the A.I. makes sense or not (because they are not competent enough anymore) assume it has to be true (computers can't get things wrong, right?). They don't have any other options and can't risk it, the only path ahead is to trust the A.I. is correct since they won't be able to spend enough time into forming a human-only based strategy, or to simply go through all that data and use some critical thinking.


So they are doomed in several ways. But this is something most people also can't grasp or are even aware of


So you are very correct that most strategies are now based on some A.I. results after analizyng some data, and very little human input is used anymore, there's just not competent people that can turn things around and use common sense, and the few that are, will not be taken seriously because it's like 10 against 10,000 people who have no idea what they are doing but have the majority of power


So... welp i guess


Here's another example of incompetence or simple ignorance and obsolete, hard setup views that can't change. You would think that after 30 or so years, no one would have the Soviet Union in their minds, except maybe if they are somehow playing around with the Soviets and the mind betrayed the guy at that point, but i tend to think this is more like a slip of the mind based on how this guy can't live with a sound mind, in the present times, and is still working with a cold war mentality. Like i said before, they can't get over that



https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/back...erence-2634443

"The best case though is that we won't see an incursion by the Soviet Union into Ukraine," Lloyd Austin said, accidentally using the name of the country that disintegrated in 1991 into republics including Russia and Ukraine.

And if they can't get over that mentality, then all their decisions and thoughts are wrong, since every one of them, strategically speaking, starts from a non-existent world reality. How to trust or follow lead from someone who is compromised in this way?


There has always been the suspicion that people both in Russia and the US are working together behind the scenes to bring down the current Russian government (And probably the current US one too), each one of those groups have something to gain from it, and they all probably plan to betray the other once United Russia loses power and the communists are back in control. That's no secret at all

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by loungelizard (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Well, he's the new leader of the Free World.

I’d be genuinely interested to hear more about your thoughts regarding this, Bill: I'm no expert, but I've had many interesting conversations with members of our extended family who are Russian, and I just can’t reconcile the statement that Putin is the leader of “the free world” (not too sure what that phrase means these days) with the seemingly constant erosion of human rights and civil liberties in the Russian Federation.
[ ... ]
I'm not picking a fight here.
I just can't see Putin as a leader of a 'free world'.
Maybe you could persuade me

Many thanks for the question. And yes, no 'fight' at all.

What I'll do (and I genuinely appreciate the opportunity, as I've been kind of waiting for people to ask me direct questions ) is I'll take this over to my personal Q&A thread later today as my answer is likely to go beyond Ukraine and Russia, and is more about the future of the planet and all of humanity. I've been thinking about this quite a lot recently — and the more I think, the bigger it all gets.

I've posted a very long (but still partial!) reply here on my personal Q&A thread. It best belongs there, I think, as it far outstretches the matters discussed even on this wide-ranging thread.

[Bill Ryan]

Not just an 'allegation'. This actually happened.

While such things occur in any war, there's overwhelming testimony to suggest that this is routinely commonplace for Ukrainian soldiers, regarded as a kind of 'perk' of the job.

https://t.me/DonbassDevushka/31760

[Ravenlocke]

https://twitter.com/jaccocharite/sta...95350152167424

https://twitter.com/jaccocharite/sta...95357504872448

[Ravenlocke]

https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/st...15288552185860

https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/st...15295988662272

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https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/st...13590563803136

[Ravenlocke]

https://twitter.com/tassagency_en/st...14302542544897

https://tass.com/defense/1531539?utm...m_social_share

Shoigu weighs in on NATO’s military buildup in Europe and West’s main goal

It is reported that the number of NATO forces on its "eastern flank" has risen by two and a half times since February, exceeding 30,000, and may "increase further in the near future"

MOSCOW/MINSK, November 2. /TASS/. The West seeks to destroy Russia’s economy and military potential, making it impossible for the country to pursue an independent foreign policy, Russian defense chief Sergey Shoigu said at a joint board meeting of the Russian and Belarusian defense ministries on Wednesday.

He pointed out that the number of NATO forces in Eastern and Central Europe had risen by two and a half times since February and might increase further in the near future, which would put Russia’s allies, including Belarus, in danger. TASS has put together crucial statements made at the video conference meeting.

On West’s policy

"Russia undoubtedly is the main target of the collective West’s destructive activities, aimed at wiping out Russia’s economy and military potential and depriving it of the chance to pursue an independent foreign policy," Shoigu noted. He stressed that Western countries were encouraging Kiev to escalate the conflict by providing it with intelligence and sending military advisors and mercenaries to Ukraine. They "are pointedly ignoring" the Kiev regime’s nuclear blackmail, which includes shelling attacks on the Zaporozhye Nuclear Power Plant, the Russian defense minister added.

He emphasized that NATO’s new strategic concept suggested moving from containing Russia "through forward presence" to creating "a full-scale system of collective defense on the eastern flank," with the bloc’s non-regional members deploying troops to the Baltic countries, Eastern and Central Europe, and new multinational battalion tactical groups being formed in Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania and Slovakia.

According to Shoigu, the number of NATO forces on its "eastern flank" has risen by two and a half times since February, exceeding 30,000, and may "increase further in the near future." It "will also put our allies in danger, first and foremost, our brotherly country of Belarus," he noted.

On security of Union State

Given this situation, the Russian Defense Ministry considers prioritizing the military security of the Union State of Russia and Belarus. The defense ministries of Russia and Belarus regularly hold joint activities, continue to shape "a common defense space" and conduct joint planning, Shoigu noted.

His Belarusian counterpart Viktor Khrenin highly appreciated the outcome of cooperation in 2022. "Despite the current developments, <...> we were able to achieve important results," he said, adding that Minsk and Moscow had already begun preparations for the Union Shield 2023 operational exercise that had been announced before the launch of Russia’s special military operation.

On regional group of forces

Activities aimed at practicing combat coordination between military units meant to form a regional group of forces have been going on in Belarus since October 22, Shoigu pointed out.

Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko announced the deployment of the regional group of forces on October 10. Russian troops started to arrive in Belarus on October 15. According to the Belarusian Defense Ministry, about 9,000 Russian troops will be sent to the country along with some 170 tanks, as many as 200 armored vehicles and up to 100 guns and mortars.