The simple facts and fictions about Israel and Zionism: How to debunk blatantly false Zionist propaganda

[Kryztian]

In nations that have long been seen as allies to the state of Israel and the cause of Zionism (such as the USA, Great Britain, Australia and Germany), there is rapidly decreasing support among the people while sympathy for Palestine is dramatically increasing. The rest of the world, especially the neighbors of Israel, are far more advanced in their understanding of what is really going on than in these heavily propagandized nations with big military budgets.

Here on Project Avalon, Israel does not have very much support, although there are a few advocates left. I think all of us know at least a few people who still favor Israel and feel what they are doing in Gaza is righteous or necessary or justified, and if we are armed with the right information, we might be able to persuade them otherwise.

As I see if, if you think Israel is justified in it's war on Gaza, it's treatment of Palestinians, it's constant bombings and military actions in Syria, Lebanon and Iran, then you are misinformed about this history and about the current situation of Israel, about Zionism, about Palestine.

So here, to help you distinguish propagandistic fictions from historical facts, are some things you just might need to know ...

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Fiction: There is no such thing as Palestine

Fact: The word "Palestine" is derived from the Egyptian word "Peleset". The word can be traced back to 1150 BCE to inscription in ancient Egyptian temples and stelae. This would be associated with the Philistines, a group that settled in the area we now know as "The Gaza Strip" in the late Bronze Age. The Assyrian words would be "Palastu", "Pilišti", or "Pilistu."

Another word used to describe this area is "Canaan" and it's people would be "Canaanites". The map above is from a British dictionary and is an attempt to delineate the border of Canaan, which today would be comparable to what has been more recently "Palestine", "Israel", "Lebanon" and some parts of "Syria". Note in the map above at the bottom right "Philistim" which does correspond to where the Philistines lived before their last King was overthrown by the Babylonians in or around 603 BC.

The Bible mentions Canaan 88 times. The first instance is in Genesis 10, where "Canaan" is a grandson of Noah, the guy with the ark. But after that starting in Genesis 11, "Canaan" is a place, not a person:

Terah took his son Abram, his grandson Lot son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, the wife of his son Abram, and together they set out from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to Canaan. ---Genesis 11:31

and succeeding references in the Bible are also to the land and the people that inhabit it. Also note that the land of Canaan exists before Abram immigrated there. Abram/Abraham is often considered the progenitor of the Jews as an ethnic race. Abram is an immigrant from Ur of the Chaldeans, which most scholars agree is now in modern day southern Iraq, near Basra. He is originally a Chaldean, which today would be an Iraqi, and an immigrant to the land of Canaan.

After many mentions in the Book of Genesis, the land Canaan is referred to several times in other Old Testament books: Chronicles, Deuteronomy, Exodus, Ezekiel, Joshua, Judges, Leviticus, Numbers, Psalms and Zephaniah. It is mentioned once in the New Testament Gospel of Matthew (15:12) written in the first century A.D. Canaan is also mentioned in many Egyptian texts including in a letter going back to the Pharoah Akhenaten in 1350 BC. It is clear that "Canaan" was the term used for at least 14 centuries.

The Romans made the area of Canaan a client state around 63 BC and eventually put it under control of Herod, and then later divided it amongst his sons. They referred to it generally as Filasṭīn, even though much of that land included much land that was North and West of where the Philistine kings were rulers. Thus, this much larger tract of land, "Canaan", became "Filastin" in Latin and then "Palestine" in other languages. We often call the Germans "Deutsch" and the Spanish "Castilians", but they are basically the two different names for the same area or the same people who inhabit that area. It is the same for Canaan and Palestine, just as "Canaanites" is simply another name for "Palestinians".

In an interview in 1969, Prime Minster Golda Meir famously stated:

"There was no such thing as Palestinians."

There is overwhelming evidence of a historical Palestine and of a Palestinian people, but the case becomes even more clear and the roots of these people can be traced back even further if you consider that the Palestinians are the same thing as the Canaanites. The state of Israel has been renaming villages, towns, streams, river, springs, hills, mountains and lakes in its 77 year existence, often giving them Biblical and Hebrew names. But they never use the word "Canaan" to name anything even though this is one of the most popular place names used in the Bible. Are they trying to bring back history by renaming things, or are they trying to erase it, in the same way Golda Meir is?

Many of the nations and peoples we know today are the results of centuries of people living a similar lifestyle, speaking a similar language or group of languages. They have all been evolving, their official borders changing somewhat if they are not defined by geographical features like coastlines, their language changing slightly, their religions sometimes changing dramatically, or not, their lands sometimes undergoing invasion and new forms of government being introduced, and yet, their concept of being a people or a nation somehow survives those changes. Palestine/Canaan is no different, except it goes back well over three millennia, much longer than any European or American nation. The people who lived there before Zionism started, the people who still live there today as "Palestinians", are the same as the Canaanites who were there in the Bronze Age, years ago before Abram arrived from the land of Ur. They have essentially the same DNA, taking into account that there has some immigration and cross pollination of people and cultures which you will find in any other nation/culture. They are essentially the same people farming the farms and building the cities.

They have survived quite a long time, endured many invasions, but their greatest challenge has come in the last century, with Zionism, which has been showing up at doorsteps with guns, forcing people to leave the country and bar them from returning, turning off their electricity, restricting their access to water, forcing them to give up their homes for people who come from places as far away as Brooklyn, bombing their dwellings, their churches, their schools, their mosques, their hospitals and finally obliterating their cities and locking them in a confined area without shelter for their forced starvation.

[Kryztian]

Fiction: The land known as Palestine and/or Israel, is historically a land of Jewish rule, of the Jewish race and of the Jewish religion.

Fact: Over the centuries, Canaan/Palestine has been invaded and occupied by many, many foreign empires and powers: (note to mods, list was complied using assistance of A.I.)

• Egyptian Empire (c. 15th–13th centuries BC)
• Canaanite City-States (indigenous Bronze Age peoples).
• Kingdoms of Israel (c. 1000–720 BC)
• Assyrian Empire (722 BC)
• Babylonian Empire (586 BC)
• Persian (Achaemenid) Empire (539–332 BC)
• Macedonian Empire (Alexander the Great) (332 BC)
• Ptolemaic Kingdom (Egyptian Greek dynasty) (301–200 BC)
• Seleucid Empire (Syrian Greek dynasty) (200–164 BC)
• Hasmonean Kingdom (164–63 BCE)
• Roman Republic/Empire (63 BC–313 AD) .
• Byzantine Empire (313–636 AD)
• Rashidun Caliphate (636–661 AD)
• Umayyad Caliphate (661–750 AD)
• Abbasid Caliphate (750–969 AD)
• Fatimid Caliphate (969–1099 AD)
• Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem (1099–1187 AD, with later fragments)
• Ayyubid Dynasty (1187–1250 AD)
• Mamluk Sultanate (1250–1517 AD)
• Ottoman Empire (1517–1917 AD)
• British Empire (1917–1948 AD)

Some of the above empires were associated with religions, some not, but if I am doing the math correctly, this area was under Jewish rule for a total of roughly 380 years (not including the time of Zionist Israel starting in 1947), 375 years by Christians (taking into account the Byzantine Empire became officially Christian in 380 AD) and 1190 years by Islamic rulers.

However, the people of Canaan were much more diverse than their religious leaders: they weren't just Jewish, Christian and Islamic, but also the religions of the original Canaanites (with gods such as El, Baal, Asherah, Astarte, Molech), Philistine religion, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Greek and Roman religions, Mystery cults (Mithraism, Isis Cult, Orphic and Dionysian Mysteries), Zoroastrianism, Manichaeism, Gnosticism, Arabic Paganism. Today one still finds many adherents of the Druze Faith, Samaritanism and the Baháʼí Faith.

There is also a great diversity of ethnic groups here besides just "Canaanites"and "Jews". We have:
Amorites, Philistines, Ammonites, Moabites, Edomites, Midianites, Idumeans, Nabateans, Samaritans, Arabs. Coming from further away we have Bedouins, Circassians, Armenians, Druze, Chechens, Bozniaks.
The invading empires left colonists, soldiers, administrators behind who were Assyrians, Babylonians (Chaldeans), Persians (Achaemenids), Greeks (Macedonians & Hellenistic settlers), Romans, Byzantines, Crusaders (Franks, Normans, other Europeans), Kurds, Seljuk Turks, Mamluk Turks who all left colonists, soldiers, administrators behind. All of these people have blended in together to form one peaceful culture, that was thriving peacefully before Zionism came to the shores of Palestine.

And then there are the Jews, the Palestinian Jews. There have always been Jews in Palestinian, but unlike the Zionists Jews, they spoke Arabic and they were happy to live in a society with a multitude of religions, but their was one language that unified them: Arabic. Most Palestinian Jews felt much more of a kinship with their Moslem and Christian neighbors who spoke Arabic, than the Zionist Jews who immigrated, who didn't want to speak their language or learn their ways, but who wanted to run everything and start a whole way of life that had no regard for the people who had been living there for the last few millennia.

As you can see, Palestine has a rich and complex culture and while Jews and Judaism are an important component, it is only one ingredient in soup that has lots and lots of ingredients.

[Gemma13]

There's a gaping hole in the idea that this war is purely territorial and we should abandon all corresponding logic to focus on an imagined group of Utopian farmers thousands of years ago that may, or may not, have called themselves Palestinians.

Can you speak to the religious part? To what's happening today. Taking into account that Israel has been a legitimate country for well over half a century now and the very idea, or ultimate goal of Islam's Hamas et al to dismantle it by killing everyone in it, is retarded.

When Muhammad wrote up his copycat to Jesus script positioning himself as God's last prophet - cleverly absorbing Jesus and Abrahamic script I might add - his Caliphates marched across lands forcing conversion by the sword. Fast forward to today and we have Gazans bending the knee to avoid losing their heads, or willingly subscribing to Muhammad's mandate to conquer the world in his name with blood lust.

How can this modern day fact be sidelined in favour of arguments over who lived where and by what name thousands of years ago?

Another question. Israel operates in accordance with Western political values. Hamas and Co do not. They live and die by their death cult.

Who would the Gazan farmers be better off with today, and over time? Hamas, who refuse to use a fraction of their billion dollar wealth to keep power running 24/7? Or Israel, a country that has willingly offered sovereignty to the Palestine region if those damn farmers could just muscle up and overthrow the blood thirsty psycopaths governing them?

I respect your passionate anti-Zionist argument but you're activism is 77 years too late.

[Kryztian]

Hi Gemma - glad you found this thread.

Posted by Gemma13 (here)
There's a gaping hole in the idea that this war is purely territorial

Please note, I am only trying to debunk the claim listed at the top of post. My intention in the above was not to say if this war is territorial. Here I was trying to define what the territory of "Palestine" and "Canaan" referred to historically and population was. And that Golda Meir is a genocidal liar for trying to think there is no such thing as Palestine or Palestinians. The other point I was trying to make here is that complete illogic in placing the control of this parcel of land into the hands of one religious group and allowing them to contruct a system of genocide and apartheid against the rest of the inhabitants there.

Nevertheless, I think this war is very, very, very territorial. Israel has never been very clear about the limits of their "territory", and as you can see, the territory of where Palestinians can built a civilization and it is quickly getting smaller and smaller and smaller.



And then there is the topic of Greater Israel, that some Israeli believe that Israel is destined to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. It seems Netanyahu has publicly signaled his support for such an idea. (I haven't researched this idea, but you will find this on other threads. I am not ready to say more about this one.)

imagined group of Utopian farmers thousands of years ago that may, or may not, have called themselves Palestinians.

No, I never said this was a Utopia - you can see by all the invasions and conquests, Palestine has had a pretty tumultuos history. But there has never been anything like the bloody Thirty Year's War where religious in Palestine battled it out, at least not until Zionist Jews (mostly Ashkenazi) announced that they were taking over control of everything and didn't give a hoot about what the people who had been living there for thousands of years said. There are arguments about the demographics, but as far as I know, Palestinians around 1900 were 70% Moslem, 25% Christian, 5% Jewish around the year 1900, and there were also some Druze and Bahais in there too. They didn't have the luxury of religious intolerance because they were fighting off their invaders: the Ottomans and then the British.

If you really want to understand some of the religious dynamics, at least the Jewish ones, including those of secular, Orthodox and others, I recommend listening to Alon Mizrahi, a Palestinian Jew. I posted two of his videos here. His native language is Arabic, but because he is Jewish, he has been accepted into Israeli society and can speak quite a bit about the different layers of it, about the thinking of different segments of society and about the chaos that it is leading to.

Can you speak to the religious part?

I have a list of topics I would like to discuss in the thread, in the same format: the propaganda idea to us in the West, and then a debunking of it. One idea that this is a war between Judaism and Islam, or between a modern secular Judiasm and a fundamentalist Islamic state. That is utter rubbish but will take some work to explain.

Another religious topic I would like to discuss is how Israelis have treated Christians, and have been genociding them for 77 years. How Israeli terrorist groups showed up in Christian towns like Iqrit and forced at gun point all the inhabitants to flee to Lebanon. In 1951 the Israeli government ruled that these people could return, but before they did, the IDF leveled every building in Irqit except the church.

There is only one completely Christian town left in all Israel/Palestine and that is Taybeh. It has Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox and Melkite Christians churches. Israeli settlers are a very special class of Zionists. They really do believe they are god's chosen people and Israel is theirs and like the ancient Israeli killed the various peoples to get their lands, they just have to do the same to the non Jews in the West Bank. They go out at night and cut down olive trees so Christian farmers can't make a living. The set fire to fields and buildings to destroy farms. The show up in Taybeh at churches and fire guns in them. As of yet, they haven't killed anyone in these churches. Just outside of Taybeh, settlers have erected a billboard that says in Arabic "There is no future for you in Palestine".

The people of Taybeh call the police, which there, is controlled by Israeli. The Israeli police are about as passionate about investigating and prosecuting crimes against Palestinians as the German Police were interested in protect Jews after Kristalnacht in 1938. Meanwhile, in Gaza, it is more like Auschwitz or Buchenwald in 1943.

There are Christians elsewhere in the West Bank, sharing their towns with Moslems. They are Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, Syriaic, Armenian and Maronite Christians . All of them have very long, deep roots in in this part of the world but they are just as much victims of genocide as the Muslims.

that Israel has been a legitimate country for well over half a century now

Not sure I would call Israel "legit" and it is definitely not going to be a country for much longer. If you look on the Israel vs Palestine thread there are many intelligent forecasts that Israel is about to end. Scott Ritter says it frequently. Andrew Napolitano and Prof. John Mearsheimer has said it and there are many more. The country has much worse debt than Argentina or Greece had when they were forced into austerity plans, about 15% of the population has left the country since October 2023 and isn't coming back, and many of those left have dual citizenships and are just biding their time. Tech companies can't find people to work there and are looking to relocate. Meanwhile, the Israeli press is reporting how wonderful the economy is doing . People in the IDF are utterly exhausted and many are avoid serving, either because they are afraid or because they are morally repulsed about what they are supposed to do. And those are just some of the factors in Israel's pending doom. For more, check out the post from Alon Mizrahi. Bill Ryan predicts the collapse sometime in 2027, but I think it could be sooner. I just hope the violence is minimal.

or ultimate goal of Islam's Hamas et al to dismantle it by killing everyone in it,

Since this thread is about propaganda, I think you might have zeroed in on the piece de resistance : Hamas. Just saying "Hamas" repeatedly evokes images of women in burkas, genital mutilation squads, beheadings for apostates, gays, and blasphemers. That is a big topic and I don't know how to attack that one yet, but I will say:

(1) The PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization) was once the paramilitary organization of choice for Gazans, It was a secular organization and included lots of Christians and didn't have any religious goal except equality for all. I am not an expert on this story yet, but the idea is that Netanyahu, through organizations like the Mossad, managed to allow Hamas but not the PLO in Gaza to get funds through, to split the opposition in to two groups, and because the image of Hamas makes a good bogeyman.

(2) People are joining Hamas in Gaza not for religious reasons, but because they are tired of seeing their children being murdered. Perhaps journalist could confirm that, but since the IDF is shooting journalists in Gaza, I have to use reason and logic.

(3) When Israel falls, Hamas is not going to be taking over the new state. It's going to be a secular state based on the idea of equality, just as Palestine was before Zionists arrived.

[thirtythree]

Posted by Gemma13 (here)
There's a gaping hole in the idea that this war is purely territorial and we should abandon all corresponding logic to focus on an imagined group of Utopian farmers thousands of years ago that may, or may not, have called themselves Palestinians.

Can you speak to the religious part? To what's happening today. Taking into account that Israel has been a legitimate country for well over half a century now and the very idea, or ultimate goal of Islam's Hamas et al to dismantle it by killing everyone in it, is retarded.

When Muhammad wrote up his copycat to Jesus script positioning himself as God's last prophet - cleverly absorbing Jesus and Abrahamic script I might add - his Caliphates marched across lands forcing conversion by the sword. Fast forward to today and we have Gazans bending the knee to avoid losing their heads, or willingly subscribing to Muhammad's mandate to conquer the world in his name with blood lust.

How can this modern day fact be sidelined in favour of arguments over who lived where and by what name thousands of years ago?

Another question. Israel operates in accordance with Western political values. Hamas and Co do not. They live and die by their death cult.

Who would the Gazan farmers be better off with today, and over time? Hamas, who refuse to use a fraction of their billion dollar wealth to keep power running 24/7? Or Israel, a country that has willingly offered sovereignty to the Palestine region if those damn farmers could just muscle up and overthrow the blood thirsty psycopaths governing them?

I respect your passionate anti-Zionist argument but you're activism is 77 years too late.

Let's for argument's sake say that it all started on Oct 7, Have you actually been reading the news these last 2 years or do you think disproportionate mass murdering by the zionist state is all Hamas propoganda? Is Israel operating according to western political values? Sure if those values are to oppress, invade, genocide, cry foul and gaslight the entire world.


Your comment reeks of ignorance and Islamophobia with no regard for historical events that shaped the region into what it's become.

[Kryztian]

Fiction: The Jewish people of Israel just want peace
Fact: Probably most of the people do want peace, but the majority people who have had the highest positions of power in Israel in the last 77 years, do not. These are people whose many actions demonstrate that they want war for the sake of ethnic cleansing. One could write many, many posts making this point, but I will discuss just one glaring example here.

Folke Bernadotte (1895 – 1948)

Folke Bernadotte was a Swedish diplomat and also a Count. In 1943 and 1944 he negotiated prisoner exchanges with Germany, and managed to get 11,000 prisoners released. 450 of them were Danish Jews from the Theresienstadt concentration camp. If he had not done so, those 450 would have undoutably been transferred to Auschwitz, and most of them would have been gassed and burned. Bernadotte also attempted to negotiate a peace deal between Himmler (without Hitler know about it) and Roosevelt and Churchill. He advised Himmler that the Allies would probably not accept the offer and he was eventually proved correct.

When the newly formed United Nations passed a resolution for the creation of an Israeli state, there was much fighting between Israelis and Palestine. Bernadotte was appointed the "United Nations Mediator in Palestine" and in June of 1948 successfully negotiated a ceasefire between Israeli and Palestinians, however, it only lasted until July. On 17 September 1948 he arrive in Jerusalem to negotiate a more lasting peace deal between the parties, accompanied by the French Colonel André Serot. Their car was stopped by four members of Lehi, a Zionist terrorist organization, dressed in IDF uniforms. The Lehi members inspected who was in the car, and with their guns shot both Bernadotte and Serot dead.

This terrorist action was approved by the three leaders of the Lehi terrorist group (or, in Wikipedia's sanitized language "paramilitary organization") one of whom was Yitzhak Shamir. Shamir was also involved in the Deir Yassin massacre. Numerous Lehi operatives showed up in the Arab village of Deir Yassin with guns and other weapons. By many reports, many of the town occupants were willing to peacefully leave the town and their ancestral home with their lives and move to another country, but Lehi decided to open fire on them. At least 107 people died that day.

In 1986, Shamir became the Prime Minster of Israel, and remained in that position in until 1992.

Is there any democratic nation on Earth that would let anyone who had done such despicably dark and evil deeds as Shamir any where near an office of political power, let alone, be the top leader of the country? There have been many more like Shamir is Israel's leadership positions in the last 77 years, but I don't know if their murderous and genocidal deeds are as well documented as Shamir's are. One thinks of Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot who led their armies to murder innocent victims, but not of them claimed that the had "The most moral army in the world" to conduct such evil.

The Israeli Knesset offers an honorific title "Righteous Among the Nations" to non-Jews who helped Jews during the Holocaust. Probably the most famous of them is Oskar Schindler, whose story is told in the movie "Schindler's List". There have been over 28 thousand titles awarded, but Bernadotte is one of them. It would be just too glaring a reminder that Israel is a terrorist state, dedicated to unending crimes for the sake of land acquisition, and all the continuous violence, war, apartheid and genocide it has continued to perpetuate for 77 years.

[shaberon]

Posted by Gemma13 (here)
Taking into account that Israel has been a legitimate country for well over half a century now and the very idea, or ultimate goal of Islam's Hamas et al to dismantle it by killing everyone in it, is retarded.

This "legitimate country" notion is highly contrived and artificial. That's equivalent to saying whatever pours out of a government is right.

Resistance is a reaction to the Nakba committed by Israel in the 1940s, as continuous to the Greater Israel occupation we face now. The "goal" of it was to get them to leave without the necessity of war. It didn't work. Almost everyone in the area welcomed and assisted immigrants until it turned into an armed invasion.

It appears you are continuously trying to shift the blame while honoring a knight in shining armor.

We take it you are immune to the debunking premised by this thread. Should you choose to counter it, you'll have to come up with something better.

This is a military occupation bilking the gullible for tax funds and complicity.

[thirtythree]

Precisly. And we can defeat the spectre of Islamic terroism by stop funding and arming fundamentalists. Hamas was put together to counteract PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization).

Al-Qaeda was CIA's creation.

ISIS too, to tackle the Assad regime in Syria.

More recently in 2023, over 10 billion dollars were made available to Iran by Biden in the guise of a hostage deal. Who wouldve thought those funds will make their way to Hamas to plan and execute Oct 7.

if this isn't a pattern....

[Mike]

Chris you can continue to cheerlead for Palestine and still be reasonable about the Muslim invasion going on in the rest of the world. Those 2 things aren't mutually exclusive you know?

That's how this thread started, right? You were upset about Raskolnikov's meme (which had nothing to do with Jews) and my subsequent thread (which was only marginally about Jews) and instead of honestly grappling with the information I offered you went right back into the wizard's circle (and then went and hid behind Bill's legs).

I think my position on Gaza might surprise you actually. I disagree with much of what's been written on the forum but I don't think Israel is entirely innocent either. No one is innocent in war.

My mile-high position is one of deep confusion. I can only offer it in the form of a question: why is nearly everyone on the planet so weirdly fixated on a piece of land the size of my palm in the middle east while the rest of the world (the west in particular) is being conquered by the "soft invasion" of Muslims?

It's the classic misdirection move. A "psy-op" as we call it here in the alt community.

There's a few people pointing at the raging inferno on the one side in an attempt to alert everyone, while nearly everyone else is on the other side obsessing over a camp fire. Gaza is a terrible tragedy, but what's in store for the rest of the world if everyone doesn't wake up quick will be infinitely worse.

You're an American Chris, right? The barbarians are knocking on the door and instead of getting clue'd in you're picking thru endless links to determine if the Caananites were really Palestinians and offering windy copy and pastes about Folke Bernadotte(?) and worrying about who farted in whose living room first back in 1150BC. It's all irrelevant.

Everyone thought I was nuts when I was screaming about the woke Marxist stuff 5 years ago. Well, looked how that turned out. This is the same thing with different costumes (sort of). But carry on. What do I know? I eagerly await your next wall of text.

[JackMcThorn]

I spent over 5 years in Europe and lived with a variety of people from the middle east, africa, and others. This is first hand experience I would not have had in the u.s.. I would not have the opportunity to commingle at the degree I did in the old country.

I was going to write about my experiences but I think the forum would require better than my opinion is capable of offering. All I need to share is that if you haven't lived with men from these regions, you don't really know about them. The good is few and far between and can be attributed to the stricture of culture, education, emotional control, and logic.

One of the good ones was Kurdish from Iraq. He rejected his muslim upbringing in light of the pursuit of knowledge with less restriction by way of closed belief systems. I helped him improve his english at every opportunity. He was a good friend and we keep in touch from time to time. The Kurds are a nation without their own country. But few discuss this in light of the broadcasting of other peoples and their fates. He cannot even communicate with his family as it will put them in danger.

With more regard to the topic; any propaganda is generally overbearing and disgusting and should not be the lone metric in order to 'pick a side' given the extent of partial truths or outright lies. Propaganda is designed to divide. My experience tells me that first-hand knowledge is more valuable than the second rate dissemination of information from official and alt interests. Some people don't know what they don't know and notwithstanding their own 'belief systems'.

[Gemma13]

Hey Chris, I've been wanting a long and reasonable conversation about this topic for some time. Conversation being the operative word here. Glad you've stepped up to the plate.

Here's the thing. We can both huddle over books in a library tossing out data points and conflicting academic and/or opinionated analyses of those data points until our teeth and pubes fall out and we still won't scratch the surface of humanity's long and complex evolution that's saturated with goodies vs baddies and baddies vs baddies and the misery of the defenceless caught inbetween.

We've got a long enough history together on Avalon to know our hearts are on the same page, so I'd like to try and find some common ground by looking at significant realities, today, that are glaringly obvious. This might bring our opposing views a little closer, and in doing so, maybe we’ll bring greater clarity to each other on our passionate positions.

Let’s take a look at the two globalists currently threatening all nations. One is headquartered in the East, the other in the West. Both suck, and both are competing against each other, but one has cleverly hitched its wagon to the other for a free ride. That be the East.

The West’s Hydra is the Great Reset, New World Order, or whatever brand they're running with. No borders, socialist-communist equality for the classes determined and handed down by global elites, and economies controlled by super entities like the United Nations and multinational corporations.

The East's Hydra also has a name: Exporting the Iranian Revolution—and they're not shy about sharing this mandate. They've just taken a little longer than the West to develop sophistication, but they got there. Khomeini says "The exporting of this revolution means the export of revolutionary values and the revelation of the tyrants and oppressors of the world, it is our divine duty. If we do not do this, we did negligence." "We say we want to export Islam, it does not mean that we get on a plane and conquest other countries. Neither we can do nor we said such a thing. But what we can do is that, with the devices we have, with the radio and television, with the press, with the groups that go abroad, with these introduce Islam as it is, as God Almighty has said, as it is in our narrations and in the Qur'an, present Islam to the people and present it to the world, and that in itself can be more effective than thousands of cannons and tanks."

Regardless of lesser conflicts of land ownership - no country is guiltless – it is wealth and strategic global politics in this hot topic that is largely ignored by those championing Hamas, aka the Muslim Brotherhood, Iran, and co. And in doing so, they are falling for their propaganda conquest playbook.

There isn't any valid argument to claim Hamas did not deliberately and provocatively incite Israel to go to war with them on Oct 7, knowing full well they were armed and ready, not to win the bloody war on the ground using their own citizens as cannon fodder, but to win the war of Eastern propaganda and global infiltration. To say otherwise, that Israel brought this on themselves, is an insult to the well organised and heavily funded Muslim Brotherhood that many are now so very fond of.

In a critique of the mess the West’s globalists are responsible for, Michael T. Flynn LTG USA (RET) has this to say: Part of this global imbalance stems from ignoring Islam’s role and influence in shaping societies, leaving nations unprepared to address both internal and external challenges.

Having dropped the ball somewhat, I imagine the World Economic Forum might be a little anxious at this point. Schwab et al have put their stake in the ground and, wait, is that a little underhanded threat?

“We strongly condemn Hamas' terrorist attacks against Israel and emphasize the need to release hostages, and stress the importance of protecting the civilian population in Gaza and taking care of the most vulnerable.
All of these developments are horrifying and could have far-reaching consequences for the Middle East in the years to come. It is our collective responsibility to focus on preventing a wider regional war, ensuring that civilians receive the support they need to survive, and ultimately achieving an agreement that brings security and peace in the region, allowing everyone to live with dignity.”

Whether we like it or not, many of our countries are directly caught up in this battle of the giants and are suffering chaos and violence as weak governments buckle under their pressure. So, do we side with the East, or the West? Should we even be choosing a side now that these tyrants are riding neck-a-neck, waving socialist flags—one seriously, one faux? Or is there another option?

Every click on social media that supports Hamas is equally empowering both the East’s political and religious global agenda and the West’s utopian global agenda. Is it therefore not only reasonable to support Israel and the USA—both fighting desperately for their Nationalism as they stand back-to-back, slashing at two hydra heads—but an urgent and critical vote in the public square?

I'd appreciate your thoughts Chris. And I'll come back later to respond to your posts about a tragic conflict that has far greater repercussions than who gets to provide fairer living conditions for residents on the soil in Gaza.

[Gemma13]

Posted by thirtythree (here)

Posted by Gemma13 (here)

.

Let's for argument's sake say that it all started on Oct 7, Have you actually been reading the news these last 2 years or do you think disproportionate mass murdering by the zionist state is all Hamas propoganda? Is Israel operating according to western political values? Sure if those values are to oppress, invade, genocide, cry foul and gaslight the entire world.


Your comment reeks of ignorance and Islamophobia with no regard for historical events that shaped the region into what it's become.

Deep breaths chihuahua. Long road ahead.

[Kryztian]

Fiction: "The Israeli Army is the most moral army in the world. It goes to great lengths to prevent civilian deaths."
Fact:

I will let Glenn Greenwald take over on this one.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=FK8wc5E_AOg

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Gemma13 (here)
Another question. Israel operates in accordance with Western political values.

... but (a serious question here ) — is that in some way a good thing??

[Kryztian]

Posted by Gemma13 (here)
Hey Chris, I've been wanting a long and reasonable conversation about this topic for some time. Conversation being the operative word here. Glad you've stepped up to the plate.

Gemma, I would like that reasonable conversation too, and would love to have it with you. There is a lot to take in here in your post and I haven't even read it that well. However, (1) it might take me some time to get to this and (2) this thread is rapidly going off topic - this is about propaganda - about very specific claims and debunking them. The question is - what is the issue we are talking about: is it about "Israel vs. Palestine" or is it "Islam vs. something else". (I would probably be a lot more interested in the Israel topic and debates about the general character of Islam is just not a use of time I am interested in.) We need a clearly defined topic, and we need to find the appropriate place to have the conversation, either an existing thread (not the big long Israel/Palestine/Syria/Iran one) or start a new one.

I would also like to ask everyone else to keep the thread on topic. I absolutely do not want to control the conversation here, but it is pretty much a forum convention that we stick to the topic. I realize now that one thing that could be in the thread and my title doesn't reflect it is that people might want to try and debunk the anti-Israel or pro-Palestine propaganda they see in the main stream media. If someone wants to do that please contact me and we can see about tweaking the title of the thread slightly.

[rgray222]

Posted by Kryztian (here)
This thread is rapidly going off topic - this is about propaganda - about very specific claims and debunking them. The question is - what is the issue we are talking about: is it about "Israel vs. Palestine" or is it "Islam vs. something else". (I would probably be a lot more interested in the Israel topic, and debates about the general character of Islam is just not a use of time I am interested in.) We need a clearly defined topic, and we need to find the appropriate place to have the conversation, either an existing thread (not the big long Israel/Palestine/Syria/Iran one) or start a new one.

I would also like to ask everyone else to keep the thread on topic. I absolutely do not want to control the conversation here, but it is pretty much a forum convention that we stick to the topic. I realize now that one thing that could be in the thread and my title doesn't reflect it is that people might want to try and debunk the anti-Israel or pro-Palestine propaganda they see in the mainstream media. If someone wants to do that please contact me and we can see about tweaking the title of the thread slightly.

Removing Islam from any dialogue about Israel and Palestinians would immediately render the discussion meaningless. If you think this is about a two-state solution or who owned what land back in 1150 BCE or how the borders have shifted around since 1948, then you're kidding yourself. Pure and simple, the discussion is about Islam's unequivocal demand for the dissolution or the annihilation of Israel. This is exactly why chasing peace has been an impossible, never-ending quest.

[Gemma13]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Gemma13 (here)
Another question. Israel operates in accordance with Western political values.

... but (a serious question here ) — is that in some way a good thing??

Preferable over Communism and Religious/Bloodline/Tyrant Dictatorships, yeah.

I'm shocked that over the past few years you appear to have abandoned the West Bill... favouring Russia, Iran, China?

Admittedly, I haven't had the opportunity to invest a lot of time here in recent years and I've yet to listen to a few of the pro-Russia podcasts you've linked, that I'd bookmarked a while back.

But damn, I'd love to hear your reasoning in a little summary to help me get my head around this. Bullet points even.

[Gemma13]

Posted by Kryztian (here)

Posted by Gemma13 (here)
Hey Chris, I've been wanting a long and reasonable conversation about this topic for some time. Conversation being the operative word here. Glad you've stepped up to the plate.

Gemma, I would like that reasonable conversation too, and would love to have it with you. There is a lot to take in here in your post and I haven't even read it that well. However, (1) it might take me some time to get to this and (2) this thread is rapidly going off topic - this is about propaganda - about very specific claims and debunking them. The question is - what is the issue we are talking about: is it about "Israel vs. Palestine" or is it "Islam vs. something else". (I would probably be a lot more interested in the Israel topic and debates about the general character of Islam is just not a use of time I am interested in.) We need a clearly defined topic, and we need to find the appropriate place to have the conversation, either an existing thread (not the big long Israel/Palestine/Syria/Iran one) or start a new one.

I would also like to ask everyone else to keep the thread on topic. I absolutely do not want to control the conversation here, but it is pretty much a forum convention that we stick to the topic. I realize now that one thing that could be in the thread and my title doesn't reflect it is that people might want to try and debunk the anti-Israel or pro-Palestine propaganda they see in the main stream media. If someone wants to do that please contact me and we can see about tweaking the title of the thread slightly.

I agree with what rrgray said, Chris. To not pay attention to Islam when it is the fastest moving religious political ideology sweeping the world, is suicide.

Understanding the Palestine debacle by clinging to one small piece of the puzzle - the lens of Zionism - is the equivalent of spinning wheels when bogged.

I very much appreciate that you'll look over my post, and I too will come back later to nut out with you how we can move forward organically with appropriate thread titles.

[norman]

There are triangulation points on the historical map that probably should be plotted as a basis for filling the map up with ruled lines later.

The actual origin [and probable purpose] of Mohammedism was a fuzzy grey area for me, and I'm very sure for most people, until a couple of years ago when I heard someone go through the full(ish) story of when and how Mohammed came on to the world stage.

I appreciate that the teller of this story has his own angle and he's a bit loose and sloppy with some of his distinctions but the illumination it switched on for me was a turning point in my 'big-picture' development. It merged 3 of my ongoing deeper threads of enquiry into one shockingly coherent but complex rat's nest of deception and artificiality.

The plight of innocent Palestinian born children seems so unrelated, and it is, but the background stage scenery in our disgusted minds influences our processing and grappling's for solution and ending. Flipped artificiality abounds in all directions, including within what we ourselves assume is reasoned and moral, intellectually.

This is just under half an hour of less than perfect audio but listenable. It's as I downloaded it with no idea how to get my hands on the original quality audio without the man in the foreground occasionally coughing as it's being reproduced through a speaker.

29 mins
The founding and possible purpose of Mohammedism.mp3

I'll conclude this post by saying I now believe that Islam, post Roman 'Christianity' and Judaism are all fake and essentially 'Satanic'. Zionism seems to be making less effort to pass itself off as Godly than the rest, a bridge away from full on fake monotheism as a catalyst for change towards an intellectually homogenised polytheistic oneness. Check out Carl Teichrib interviews or book for some good insight into that trend.

[shaberon]

Posted by rgray222 (here)
Removing Islam from any dialogue about Israel and Palestinians would immediately render the discussion meaningless. If you think this is about a two-state solution or who owned what land back in 1150 BCE or how the borders have shifted around since 1948, then you're kidding yourself. Pure and simple, the discussion is about Islam's unequivocal demand for the dissolution or the annihilation of Israel.

It was about Zionist propaganda.

Dissolving Israel would be my idea.

Is the discussion not about Israel's unequivocal plan of Eretz Yisrael?

Islam v. the west is a different story. Can anyone identify the west and give a reason anyone would care.

That America would become populated by Mexican Muslims is mathematically predictable.

The Battle of Khaybar 628 is described as a "pre-emptive" strike about a Jewish coalition forming to exterminate Islam. Evidently there is some kind of dispute here.

The original Kingdom of Israel, on the other hand, existed to destroy anything different and still does. Says so in the Bible.