The simple facts and fictions about Israel and Zionism: How to debunk blatantly false Zionist propaganda

[Mike]

Posted by shaberon (here)

Posted by rgray222 (here)
Removing Islam from any dialogue about Israel and Palestinians would immediately render the discussion meaningless. If you think this is about a two-state solution or who owned what land back in 1150 BCE or how the borders have shifted around since 1948, then you're kidding yourself. Pure and simple, the discussion is about Islam's unequivocal demand for the dissolution or the annihilation of Israel.

It was about Zionist propaganda.

Dissolving Israel would be my idea.

Is the discussion not about Israel's unequivocal plan of Eretz Yisrael?

Islam v. the west is a different story. Can anyone identify the west and give a reason anyone would care.

That America would become populated by Mexican Muslims is mathematically predictable.

The Battle of Khaybar 628 is described as a "pre-emptive" strike about a Jewish coalition forming to exterminate Islam. Evidently there is some kind of dispute here.

The original Kingdom of Israel, on the other hand, existed to destroy anything different and still does. Says so in the Bible.

I'll explain what the west is in 3 sentences or less if you explain what Zionism is in 3 sentences or less. If you honor the deal I'll even explain to you why you should care, because I'm in such a good mood. Meanwhile don't go dissolving anyone on us Hitler! You'll get in trouble for that. It's mathematically predictable.

[rgray222]

Posted by shaberon (here)
This "legitimate country" notion is highly contrived and artificial. That's equivalent to saying whatever pours out of a government is right.

I can't see how you can call Israel a contrived or artificial country when there are 165 out of the 193 United Nations member states that recognize Israel as a sovereign nation. No amount of 3rd party wishful thinking will set Israel on a path to dissolution or annihilation.

Posted by shaberon (here)
Dissolving Israel would be my idea.

From where I sit, I can't see the demise of Israel. Any serious attempt to destroy Israel (I believe) would trigger a world war. If this is truly how you feel, then the early history of the region and shifting borders since 1948 are meaningless. My apologies, I thought we were looking for a discussion that might contribute to people thinking about peaceful solutions in the region.

There has been some discussion about being off topic on this thread so I will leave it here.

[Gemma13]

Posted by norman (here)

The actual origin [and probable purpose] of Mohammedism was a fuzzy grey area for me, and I'm very sure for most people, until a couple of years ago when I heard someone go through the full(ish) story of when and how Mohammed came on to the world stage.
I .

Thanks for this Norman. Coupled to Chris's last post, and posts from other members, here and elsewhere on the forum, it's very helpful.

I've made the fatal mistake of assuming that most members are reasonably familiar with the inception of Muhammad's Islamic faith and the defining mandate for global domination that adherents persist with to this day, because they're indoctrinated from birth to Martyr themselves and their people, no matter the bloodshed in their long game conquest, to achieve it.

I might add here that a critical point of analysis in all this is global domination that aims for forced and often brutal religious conversion vs global domination inclusive of spiritual, social, and economic freedoms. But we'll get to all that.

Focussing solely on one of the many sub parts without a clear understanding of Islam's goal, is reductionism. A dangerous limitation that sets our sights on a fraction of the elephant in the room.

If I was going to take to the streets in protest, fuelled by the click bait activism after Oct 7th, I wanted to be well informed. No different really to wanting to look at both sides of the Black Lives Matter protests that swept through our streets.

As a result, I've spent the past year deep diving into this from multiple angles, and it ain't pretty, to say the least. There's always a bigger picture - a covert, or in this case, not so covert agenda - driving chaos that the commoner is incapable of recognising when they only have space in their lives for manufactured headlines. They with the biggest propaganda machines win. At least until eyes are opened wide because of the repercussions, and it's not too late to turn back the tide.

I'll come back later with a brief 101 on Islam in the Middle East and the West, and how it relates to the current conflict with Israel, to advance our conversations and debates... level the playing field a little.

I have to add here also that I'm concerned Avalon has shifted slightly away from healthy analysis and reasonable debate with trends toward trolling uninformed, sensationalist click-bait content. A trap difficult to avoid now that this trend has become the order of the day.

I too want to be on the right side of history in these troubling times which is why I research and absorb data from multiple sources on opposing sides. They have equally guided me toward the bigger picture - the elephant in the room.

[Tintin]

An historical piece from the author Martin Amis and am unsure on the date or publication shown here, but it does sum up part of the problem: luxury beliefs occupying the minds of, often, middle-class white and often academic types who become activated without really thinking through what they promote. While we can and should rightly criticise where Western foreign policy errs and hold it to account, some greater literacy and awareness of who our enemies may really be both within and outwith is desperately needed. It is nearly always ideological in nature with religious extensions: the further from the Divine we walk we invite many a malign force into that spiritless vacuum, and we get played like old citoles:

"“People of liberal sympathies, stupefied by relativism, have become the apologists for a creedal wave that is racist, misogynist, homophobic, imperialist and genocidal. To put it another way, they are up the arse of those that want them dead.”

The full extract courtesy here:

[Bill Ryan]

Much of this new video interview of Alastair Crooke is about the rapidly growing Israeli blood-lust — his own term for what is currently gripping many of the Israeli people and which he predicts is destined to escalate much further.

He breaks it all down in Jungian terms. It's a chilling thesis which he explains in great detail and which is one that I would submit deserves a great deal of attention. I can't recommend this too highly.

I do think it belongs on this thread. And as I've been continually striving to do for quite a long time now, I'll sit as firmly on my hands as possible to refrain from fully expressing my own very strong views on the matter.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=OqeCsHrBmFY

[Mike]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
Much of this new video interview of Alastair Crooke is about the rapidly growing Israeli blood-lust — his own term for what is currently gripping many of the Israeli people and which he predicts is destined to escalate much further.

He breaks it all down in Jungian terms. It's a chilling thesis which he explains in great detail and which is one that I would submit deserves a great deal of attention. I can't recommend this too highly.

I do think it belongs on this thread. And as I've been continually striving to do for quite a long time now, I'll sit as firmly on my hands as possible to refrain from fully expressing my own very strong views on the matter.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=OqeCsHrBmFY

I'll definitely watch the video Bill. Will you watch one of mine? Serious question.

But I'd much rather hear you explain yourself in your own words. I understand the impulse to sit on your hands but it's hardly necessary at this point because you've already outlined your position for the most part.

But the gaps you're leaving by not elaborating cause more confusion than clarity. I know you're largely anti-west and anti-Israel, but what exactly are you for? If you're pro-Sharia law, I'll just assume you died and that same group of people that replaced Paul McCartney replaced you too If you're pro communism, then I'll just have to accept that all my anti woke rantings were a failure and I'll quit the forum in shame, and head deep into the Alaskan wilderness..never to be seen or heard from again.

I know you like Putin. I kinda like him too. But are you pro dictatorship in general or are you just comfortable with Putin in that position? Are you comfortable with a world run by someone like Xi Jinping?

Do you think the world would be a better place without personal liberties? Free speech? Free thought? Freedom to worship? To assemble? Etc

Not asking you these questions so I can pounce or attack your positions. I'm not personally offended by any of it..just genuinely curious why you're taking some of these positions. Plus I know you're dying to do it anyway lol, and I've just set the table for you perfectly (you're welcome). So let's hear it.

[shaberon]

Posted by Mike (here)
I'll explain what the west is in 3 sentences or less if you explain what Zionism is in 3 sentences or less. If you honor the deal I'll even explain to you why you should care, because I'm in such a good mood. Meanwhile don't go dissolving anyone on us Hitler! You'll get in trouble for that. It's mathematically predictable.

No three-sentence deals.

Facing prison and death is bread and butter. That doesn't faze me.

I am the same as anyone else in being able to say how a country will be reacted to. As to its future intactness, that is, of course, beyond my control.


If multiple posters in a debunking Zionism thread would like to freelance for Hasbara, can they come up with anything that will get anyone's attention?

[Mike]

Posted by shaberon (here)

Posted by Mike (here)
I'll explain what the west is in 3 sentences or less if you explain what Zionism is in 3 sentences or less. If you honor the deal I'll even explain to you why you should care, because I'm in such a good mood. Meanwhile don't go dissolving anyone on us Hitler! You'll get in trouble for that. It's mathematically predictable.

No three-sentence deals.

Facing prison and death is bread and butter. That doesn't faze me.

I am the same as anyone else in being able to say how a country will be reacted to. As to its future intactness, that is, of course, beyond my control.


If multiple posters in a debunking Zionism thread would like to freelance for Hasbara, can they come up with anything that will get anyone's attention?

Did you get that prison and death line from Rambo or Commando? Of course the dissolving thing was a joke. I'll have Picard update your software.

I'll freelance for anyone that pays more than Substack! But what I'd really like to know is where Chris went? Hopefully not Palestine.. not after that pro LGBTQ post of his the other day.

[Ewan]

Posted by Mike (here)


>--snip--<

But the gaps you're leaving by not elaborating cause more confusion than clarity. I know you're largely anti-west and anti-Israel, but what exactly are you for? If you're pro-Sharia law, I'll just assume you died and that same group of people that replaced Paul McCartney replaced you too If you're pro communism, then I'll just have to accept that all my anti woke rantings were a failure and I'll quit the forum in shame, and head deep into the Alaskan wilderness..never to be seen or heard from again.

I know you like Putin. I kinda like him too. But are you pro dictatorship in general or are you just comfortable with Putin in that position? Are you comfortable with a world run by someone like Xi Jinping?

Do you think the world would be a better place without personal liberties? Free speech? Free thought? Freedom to worship? To assemble? Etc

Not asking you these questions so I can pounce or attack your positions. I'm not personally offended by any of it..just genuinely curious why you're taking some of these positions. Plus I know you're dying to do it anyway lol, and I've just set the table for you perfectly (you're welcome). So let's hear it.

Shame that hadn't been an open question to all and I'm not answering for anyone here - least of all Bill.

Why does one have to be FOR something, or PRO anything?

Somebody once said to me 'You must believe in something', my instant response of "Why?" seemed to exasperate/confuse them further.

I see you view Putin as a dictator (I don't), what is Trump but a spokesperson for a bunch of dictators. Correct?

Apologies for intruding.

[Tintin]

Posted by Ewan (here)

Posted by Mike (here)


>--snip--<

But the gaps you're leaving by not elaborating cause more confusion than clarity. I know you're largely anti-west and anti-Israel, but what exactly are you for? If you're pro-Sharia law, I'll just assume you died and that same group of people that replaced Paul McCartney replaced you too If you're pro communism, then I'll just have to accept that all my anti woke rantings were a failure and I'll quit the forum in shame, and head deep into the Alaskan wilderness..never to be seen or heard from again.

I know you like Putin. I kinda like him too. But are you pro dictatorship in general or are you just comfortable with Putin in that position? Are you comfortable with a world run by someone like Xi Jinping?

Do you think the world would be a better place without personal liberties? Free speech? Free thought? Freedom to worship? To assemble? Etc

Not asking you these questions so I can pounce or attack your positions. I'm not personally offended by any of it..just genuinely curious why you're taking some of these positions. Plus I know you're dying to do it anyway lol, and I've just set the table for you perfectly (you're welcome). So let's hear it.

Shame that hadn't been an open question to all and I'm not answering for anyone here - least of all Bill.

Why does one have to be FOR something, or PRO anything?

Somebody once said to me 'You must believe in something', my instant response of "Why?" seemed to exasperate/confuse them further.

I see you view Putin as a dictator (I don't), what is Trump but a spokesperson for a bunch of dictators. Correct?

Apologies for intruding.

No apologies for intruding Ewan. And, yes, Putin isn't a dictator. That's a silly piece of nonsense that I've taken people to task for face-to-face when they spout that kind of narrative framed 'intelligence' agency scripted drivel at me. It's mildly irritating, at best.

We'll wait to see if Bill takes Mike's bait

[Gemma13]

Posted by shaberon (here)
l
If multiple posters in a debunking Zionism thread would like to freelance for Hasbara, can they come up with anything that will get anyone's attention?

Before I return with a few hard facts to bring to the table, try this on for size. I didn't write it, though I wish I had because it echoes my position on THE BIGGER PICTURE at play here.

Free Palestine? Or Free Pass for Terror?
by Lucy Tabrizi

People often ask, sometimes with curiosity, sometimes with suspicion: “Why do you talk about Israel so much?”

Fair question.

Recently, Sydney hosted a rally so huge you’d think it was a national holiday. Officially it was for the Palestinian people. In reality, it looked more like a parade for theocrats.

This is Australia. A vibrant, multicultural democracy I’ve always called home. Police estimated 90,000 people marched across the Harbour Bridge under banners of “humanity,” mostly with Palestinian flags, but among them were Taliban and Hezbollah-style flags, and portraits of Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps.

From the front row, a portrait of Ayatollah Khamenei could be seen. The leader of a regime that beats women for showing their hair, hangs dissidents from cranes, and guns down teenage girls for chanting “Woman, Life, Freedom.”

Islamist groups like Hizb ut-Tahrir were there too. They’re banned in Germany, the UK, and much of the Arab world, but apparently welcome in Sydney. The only Australian flag I saw was the one they set on fire.

Prime Minister Anthony Albanese called it a “peaceful” march for Gaza. Odd. The one I saw looked more like cheering on the same jihadist forces that dragged Gaza into war, hide behind civilians, steal aid, and refuse to end the fighting.

After 20 months of the largest protests in decades “for the Palestinian people,” not once have they called on Hamas to surrender, even as many Gazans plead for it. Their aim doesn’t seem to be ending what they call “genocide,” but keeping the accusation alive. When footage or casualty claims collapse, they are not relieved; they are disappointed, because worse stories mean better weapons against Israel.

I used to think Australia was a few years behind the moral rot engulfing Western Europe and North America. But I’ve since realised “Free Palestine” is a smokescreen, a way to smuggle in a war on Western civilisation under the banner of compassion. The world’s oldest hatred, dressed up as resistance to Israel, is just the entry point.

Let me rewind.

For years, most of my posts were about animal rights or the occasional rant about how the Left, my side, was drifting into authoritarianism. I was sympathetic to the Palestinian people, but I wasn’t confused about their jihadist leaders or Israel’s right to exist. I had a decent grasp of the history, yet Israel wasn’t on my radar. Then everything changed, or rather, global attention did.

On October 7th, the world witnessed one of the most barbaric terrorist attacks in modern history, filmed proudly by the attackers themselves. Civilians butchered in their beds. Children burned alive in front of their parents. Elderly Holocaust survivors dragged from their homes. Women raped, mutilated, and paraded through the streets while jeering crowds spat on their bodies. Babies and toddlers among the hundreds taken hostage. Peace activists who’d spent years building bridges with Palestinians hunted down and executed. It was the deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust.

Where was the outrage? The solidarity? The celebrity hashtags? When Boko Haram kidnapped hundreds of schoolgirls, the world lit up with #BringBackOurGirls. When #MeToo took off, the abuse of women dominated headlines for years. When George Floyd was murdered, Black Lives Matter became a global rallying cry — yet it stayed silent when Hamas terrorists gunned down Black African farm workers on camera, with some chapters even expressing solidarity with the attackers.

No wall-to-wall coverage. No Instagram squares. No rainbow flags for the only country in the region where you can be openly gay without being flogged or hanged.

Almost overnight, Israel became the internet’s moral battleground. But the crowds in Western cities weren’t condemning the terrorists; they were defending them. Some openly celebrated. Others went for a polished version of moral inversion: “Israel had it coming.” I saw humanitarians describe the massacre as Gaza “breaking out of prison,” as if the slaughter of civilians were an act of liberation.

Imagine if, after 9/11, protesters in London, Paris, and Sydney marched with Al-Qaeda flags and Osama bin Laden’s face under banners of “humanity.” The October 7th massacre was Israel’s 9/11, many times worse in proportion to its population, yet on the very same day it was met with global justification and applause.

What stunned me more than the celebrations was how quickly NGOs, universities, media outlets and governments rushed to legitimise them. They didn’t wait for months of fighting or rising civilian casualties before turning on Israel. It happened on October 7th, before Israel had fired a single shot in return.

For anyone who thought civil society could not turn on Jews in broad daylight, this was the wake-up call. I heard it loud and clear. Those around me didn’t, and I still don’t understand how. The West had done this before, turning away Jewish refugees before the Holocaust. The majority can be catastrophically wrong. Antisemitism, long thought banished to the fringes, had come roaring back into fashion dressed as political virtue.

None of this is about claiming Israel is beyond criticism. No democracy is. But the obsessive condemnation, the grotesque double standards, and the free pass given to far worse regimes are hallmarks of antisemitism. The world’s oldest hatred, refitted for today’s politics by projecting ancient tropes and libels onto the Jewish state. And the pushback was far too weak.

It quickly became clear this was not just another regional dispute, but a civilisational fault line — between flawed but free liberal democracies and authoritarian movements like Islamism and hard-Left revolutionaries, united in their hatred of those freedoms. Iran says it openly: Israel first, the West next.

Equating a democracy with a jihadist terror group is not a serious argument. It is moral confusion. Yes, Israel has been accused of war crimes, as has every nation that has fought a war. But for Hamas, war crimes are the strategy, using civilians as shields and targeting civilians as policy. They are funded and armed by Iran, part of a broader civilisational axis that exploits Western freedoms to destroy them. Their information war has been so effective they have recruited university students and well-meaning Left-leaning activists in democracies to do their bidding.

Most people do not realise how central propaganda has been to the conflict. Since the 1960s, and even more so since the 1990s, Israel’s enemies, unable to win on the battlefield, switched tactics. They set out to delegitimise Israel in the court of public opinion until its destruction feels like justice. It has worked brilliantly, especially on well-meaning people who think they are standing for what is right.

This is not some distant issue I can ignore. It is right here in my backyard. Another march for Gaza is being pushed for across my city’s most iconic bridge.

Whenever I see those crowds, I think of the student protests in Iran before the Islamic Revolution: young, idealistic, certain they were fighting for freedom. They never intended to hand their country to religious hardliners, but that is exactly what happened. Even then, anti-Israel sentiment was a unifying rallying cry, laced with Nazi imagery and portraying the Shah, the United States, and Israel as a single axis of evil.

I don’t want that for Australia. I don’t want my children growing up under an ideology that crushes freedom, erases women’s rights, and punishes dissent with brutality. When I look at them, I care far more about the world they will inherit than about strangers on the internet calling me a “genocide supporter.” Their future matters more than my reputation with people who have lost their moral compass.

At those rallies, two kinds of people march side by side. One walks in ignorance, convinced they’re standing up for human rights. The other knows exactly what they’re marching for, and it has nothing to do with peace.

Many of my friends fell into that first camp of compassionate ignorance: well-meaning but hopelessly misinformed. When I replied to a few early on, most said they knew very little and “just wanted to help.”

Following the October 7th atrocities, many embraced a neat yet false narrative: in 1948, Israel appeared out of nowhere, ethnically cleansed the Palestinians, and has run a genocidal, apartheid regime ever since. Hamas? Iran? Jihad? Never heard of them. Just a side issue. Or, more often, “a justified response to Israeli oppression.”

Every so often, someone I know posts about “Palestine” for the first time, and I get that sinking feeling: not you, too. Then it snowballs into daily updates. Moral righteousness is a hell of a drug. And if this many people in my small circle are this easily duped, what does that say about the wider population? Is this how revolutions happen — not with a sudden bang, but with a slow drip of moral certainty that no one stops to question? Because that is exactly what Palestinian leaders have relied on for decades.

It is why they have never accepted statehood. Statelessness is their greatest weapon, winning them global sympathy to wield as a bludgeon against Israel. Most wars create refugees, and in every other context refugees are resettled and rebuild. The Palestinians were kept in place — not by Israel, but by the Arab world with help from UNRWA (the UN agency for Palestinians), the only UN agency devoted to a single group. Not to solve the problem, but to freeze it and pass it down as political leverage. In almost any other conflict, there would be no distinct Palestinian people today. Here, the grievance was preserved, nurtured, and marketed.

That grievance has found natural allies far beyond the Middle East. In Australia, “Abolish Australia” activists have linked arms with “Free Palestine” supporters. On the surface it looks like solidarity between Indigenous Australians and Palestinians. In reality, it is a convergence of activist factions, united by an ideology that frames liberal democracies as illegitimate colonial projects to be dismantled.

If they truly cared about decolonisation and Indigenous self-determination, they would support Israel’s right to exist. For the historically challenged: Jews are from Judea — the ancient name for the southern part of today’s Israel. Zionism is one of history’s most successful decolonisation movements.

Seeing Palestinians, an Arab ethno-national group, rebranded as the “First Nations” of the Middle East as they marched across the Harbour Bridge was one of the most audacious marketing coups of our time; a showcase in how completely we have inverted reality by erasing the far deeper Jewish connection to the land.

And so here we are. Another march in another city, on another bridge. Another crowd convinced they are on the side of freedom, standing shoulder to shoulder with those who would be the first to destroy it.

This is why I talk about Israel. Because history is full of moments where people cheered for movements that ended in tyranny. We are watching it happen again. And if we can’t even name it when it’s aimed at the Jewish state, we will be powerless to stop it when it comes for the rest of us.

The question that runs through my head daily is: Why are so many talking about Israel, yet so few getting it right?

https://open.substack.com/pub/future...droid&r=19b0u2

[Jad]

I hesitated to post in this thread because I can already feel how polarized people are around this topic. But what strikes me as ironic is that many of the loudest opinions are coming from people who’ve never even set foot in the Middle East. Their views are often secondhand—shaped by the same governments and institutions that are actively importing some of the worst representatives of Middle Eastern societies into Western communities.

Think about it this way: imagine someone took the most troubled, crime-ridden, low-IQ individuals from Detroit and shipped them off to Sweden. What do you think would happen? Chaos. And yet, that’s essentially what’s happening on a global scale. In every nation—no matter the religion, culture, or ethnicity—there are people at the bottom who lack education, vision, or basic empathy. They are the ones most likely to commit horrible acts. These are the exact groups your politicians choose to move across borders, and it’s not by accident.

The effect? Societies become destabilized, people grow polarized, and communities that could have lived side by side in peace instead grow suspicious and divided. And while everyday citizens fight amongst themselves, distracted by fear and resentment, those same politicians and global interests quietly strip away freedoms, concentrate power, and prepare the ground for future conflicts.

I’ve traveled widely—Asia, the Middle East, Europe, South America—and I’ve spoken with people from every background: Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists. Everywhere I’ve gone, ordinary people want the same simple things: to make a living, raise their families, educate their kids, and live in peace. Hardly anyone cares about “dominating” another religion or spreading their belief system. That’s a myth perpetuated to keep us divided.

Yes, in every faith and every culture there are small minority groups clinging to archaic religious dogmas and trying to impose them on modern society. But the truth is, most people don’t have time for that nonsense. They’re too busy working, surviving, and trying to give their children a better life.
And yet, global powers know exactly how to exploit these fringe groups. They uproot them, move them into new countries, and use them as cultural tripwires to spark division. Once hate and suspicion are seeded, it doesn’t take much to escalate into social conflict—or even war. And when war comes, the people are already preconditioned to accept it, because the hostility was manufactured long before the first shot was fired.

[Rizotto]

Quite telling that this thread which was started as an examination of zionism has turned into an anti-islam discussion by the same individuals who also praise Trump...

Let's come back to the original questions raised by this thread, "How to debunk blatantly false Zionist propaganda". The sure sign for detecting 'false zionist propaganda' is their trick of demonizing & dehumanizing those whom they wish to eliminate. Hence their resort to anti-islam propaganda, while at the same time the Israeli genocide of Palestinians is really about killing arabs, whether muslims, christians, or even jewish arabs. The IDF bombed christian churches and synagogues in Gaza as much as they bombed mosques. It is truly about the elimination of the native arab population. But the zionists can't just say 'we need to eliminate arabs', that wouldn't do. So the next best pretext is to blackball a religion.

By the way, I'm not attached to any particular religion myself. History tells us that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have all had their dark episodes of straying from their original inspiration. Greed is often the main driver in political or religious conflicts, as the video below concludes. Very interesting analysis of zionist values.

Think Israel Is Bad? Wait Until You See Its Society!

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=e1h5kshVfAM

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Mike (here)
Not asking you these questions so I can pounce or attack your positions. I'm not personally offended by any of it..just genuinely curious why you're taking some of these positions. Plus I know you're dying to do it anyway lol, and I've just set the table for you perfectly (you're welcome). So let's hear it.

Posted by Tintin (here)
We'll wait to see if Bill takes Mike's bait

[Mike]

Posted by Ewan (here)

Posted by Mike (here)


>--snip--<

But the gaps you're leaving by not elaborating cause more confusion than clarity. I know you're largely anti-west and anti-Israel, but what exactly are you for? If you're pro-Sharia law, I'll just assume you died and that same group of people that replaced Paul McCartney replaced you too If you're pro communism, then I'll just have to accept that all my anti woke rantings were a failure and I'll quit the forum in shame, and head deep into the Alaskan wilderness..never to be seen or heard from again.

I know you like Putin. I kinda like him too. But are you pro dictatorship in general or are you just comfortable with Putin in that position? Are you comfortable with a world run by someone like Xi Jinping?

Do you think the world would be a better place without personal liberties? Free speech? Free thought? Freedom to worship? To assemble? Etc

Not asking you these questions so I can pounce or attack your positions. I'm not personally offended by any of it..just genuinely curious why you're taking some of these positions. Plus I know you're dying to do it anyway lol, and I've just set the table for you perfectly (you're welcome). So let's hear it.

Shame that hadn't been an open question to all and I'm not answering for anyone here - least of all Bill.

Why does one have to be FOR something, or PRO anything?

Somebody once said to me 'You must believe in something', my instant response of "Why?" seemed to exasperate/confuse them further.

I see you view Putin as a dictator (I don't), what is Trump but a spokesperson for a bunch of dictators. Correct?

Apologies for intruding.

Because at the top of any given hierarchy, if one set of values degrades another will arrive to take its place. If you don't participate in the collective ethos, your indifference will be taken up by tyrants and used against you at some point.

No such thing as a vacuum at the top of a hierarchy. Individually and societally we require a specific set of values to organize our psyches, usually in the form of religion. When those values degrade you get the collective madness of 'woke' and things like that. Or you begin to tolerate intolerance, much like the west is doing now by importing Islam.

I would have given the same answer you just gave not too long ago, btw. But now I see the value in certain institutions I didn't see before. They're load bearing walls. "Pro" can be reductive at times, but it's more useful than reductive in larger contexts.

re Putin: he's not Stalin, and I don't think he's evil (or any other of the western tropes that get regurgitated in the MSM). But he's much more dictator'ish than anything else one might imagine him to be. I admire him, but I wouldn't trust anyone without a functioning set of checks and balances. I'm a Trump guy, but I wouldn't trust him either in that situation.

[Mike]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Mike (here)
Not asking you these questions so I can pounce or attack your positions. I'm not personally offended by any of it..just genuinely curious why you're taking some of these positions. Plus I know you're dying to do it anyway lol, and I've just set the table for you perfectly (you're welcome). So let's hear it.

Posted by Tintin (here)
We'll wait to see if Bill takes Mike's bait

Ha! Touche.

I did watch the video you posted. Lindsay Graham is a demented weasel, and I don't like him either. Even in conservative circles, he's pretty polarizing. He is representative of a certain type of warmongering type, but I've seen very few US politicians express his brand of zealotry. So I'm with you on that one.

As far as the mythical stuff, Apolloian vs Dionysian:
I think it's largely a superficial metaphor. But there is some truth to it, only not in the way I think the man suggests.

I don't know if I'd prefer Trump as a peacetime president in a sane world. But in a largely insane world, full of all kinds of unexpected mountains to climb and walls to bash down, it requires a certain kind of grandiose individual. In that way he's perfectly suited to the task at hand. His actions often seem radical but radical action is often required when attempting to undo previous radicalism. Of course his actions are cast as unhinged and unpredictable, while his predecessor was considered measured and grounded.

But..yes he has something of an Appolonian streak, but I would argue it's the only reason he's effective in these times. He would have never gotten elected were he not unpredictable and Apollonian. Shutting down the border, eradicating woke in government and universities, defunding woke public radio .. no one alive has the kind of energy and balls to do what he did and is doing. He saved the U.S., and by extension the west. And by further extension, the world I would argue.

[Mike]

Posted by Rizotto (here)
Quite telling that this thread which was started as an examination of zionism has turned into an anti-islam discussion by the same individuals who also praise Trump...

Let's come back to the original questions raised by this thread, "How to debunk blatantly false Zionist propaganda". The sure sign for detecting 'false zionist propaganda' is their trick of demonizing & dehumanizing those whom they wish to eliminate. Hence their resort to anti-islam propaganda, while at the same time the Israeli genocide of Palestinians is really about killing arabs, whether muslims, christians, or even jewish arabs. The IDF bombed christian churches and synagogues in Gaza as much as they bombed mosques. It is truly about the elimination of the native arab population. But the zionists can't just say 'we need to eliminate arabs', that wouldn't do. So the next best pretext is to blackball a religion.

By the way, I'm not attached to any particular religion myself. History tells us that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have all had their dark episodes of straying from their original inspiration. Greed is often the main driver in political or religious conflicts, as the video below concludes. Very interesting analysis of zionist values.

Think Israel Is Bad? Wait Until You See Its Society!

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=e1h5kshVfAM

You don't think we've done enough Zionism examining here lately? ( a term btw no one can seem to define in any meaningful way).

Why don't we have the big picture conversation instead? That's all I'm suggesting. This thread is gaining steam so I'd like to do it here. But if Chris is strongly opposed, I can start my own thread. If only someone knew where he went...

[Raskolnikov]

Really Mike, Commando or Rambo? Almost spit my coffee on the screen. A balanced perspective is important in all things, especially where Islam and Israel come into play, both sides of that coin are blood red btw, so if I come across cold, heartless, or indifferent, it's because I AM trying to remain indifferent and share both sides of the story without becoming emotionally involved. If I sometimes take the liberty of peddling in what some might call

Posted by Gemma13 (here)
trolling uninformed, sensationalist click-bait

well, 1) I understand that was probably not directly directed at me, at least I hope it wasn't, 2) it's not uninformed, and 3) there's also something to be said for a new artform that can get to the heart of the matter in single image and a few carefully crafted words, cue Bill's response to Mike. We are trying to wake the masses afterall, can you picture the CNN crowd reading and comprehending anything you wrote Gemma? I doubt it. Thanks all for the continuing insights and knowledge, it's appreciated. That said, I'm just going to drop this here. While I don't condone praising "the Party" by any means, it seems there's patriots on both sides, this time in Russia. If she were an American, Mike, I could see you two walkin' the aisle. Let me know when you want the bachelor party.

With your permission Russian Bear.

Posted by Russian Bear (here)

PATRIOT

I want to tell you about our beloved system,
It seems to me that each of you will agree with me,
Everyone says that everything is very good in the West,
Whoever tells me this, I will wipe it into dust!

Everything that is Soviet is cool, cars and pants,
Let everything be expensive, but everything is ours, guys,
Don't sneer at me so fiercely and don't sneer,
I know that the best currency in the world is our Tambov ruble.

We sing the glory of the beloved and native party,
For ruling our country so wonderfully,
For bread, for water, for freedom, for happy work,
Soviet missiles will wipe all the bourgeois into dust!

Well, what good do they have, only shame and disgrace:
Tape recorders, VCRs, why do we need them,
We will sing to the accordion about our beloved land,
Where for an honest worker, not life, but simply paradise.

Stop listening to your bourgeois rock, join the CPSU!

And develop a patriotic spirit in yourself,
We all live very happily in the Soviet country.
Oh, how sad for the workers who rot abroad!

We sing the glory of the beloved and native party,
For ruling our country so beautifully,
For bread, for water, for freedom, for happy work,
Soviet missiles will grind all the bourgeois into dust!

My native country is wide and there is a lot in it,
And who said that there is nothing in the stores
Open your eyes and look - on the shelves there is soft, fresh bread,
And mineral water, are you completely blind?!

Thanks to our party, we bow to it to the ground,
For its honor we will all stand together as a dense wall,
With a callus at the factory we will earn rubles,
And we will give it to the peace fund and to the fund of our native party!

We sing the glory of the beloved and native party,
For the fact that it rules our country so beautifully,
For bread, for water, for freedom, for happy work,
Soviet missiles will wipe all the bourgeois into dust!

[rgray222]

Posted by Mike (here)
But if Chris is strongly opposed, I can start my own thread. If only someone knew where he went...

This appears to be a thread that is picking up steam, and it certainly has some worthwhile discussion, but.................the title of this thread is not what the discussion is about. It is confusing to me, and it must be even more so with non-members who don't frequent the forum. I would imagine it is not getting the traffic that it could or should because of the title. The expansion of Islam around the world is a hot topic and will probably remain so for quite a while. I don't want to be the one to start a new thread because the discussion here has merit. I think a new title, something along the lines of
Islam's Expansion and the Future of Israel might be more appropriate.
Any thoughts

[Vicus]

Simple Fact:

Israel as state should NEVER came to be/ existed...the REAL Jude's say so...

In that case: why All the native Americans could not keep THEIR territory's? ...

The Fictions:

All the suppose religious text altered trough centuries ... from every Hegemon at any given time...

Enter the mind parasite: Zionism...