The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

[Seikou-Kishi]

Posted by Strat (here)
Oh and LS, I imagine it's annoying having a 25yr old dude trying to give you advice. I'm not trying to be 'holier than thou or anything,' just calling it like I see it. God bless.

I can't imagine, after all LS has said, that he would betray himself with ageism.

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by Lord Sidious (here)
I am not out to prove bill wrong.

You had me fooled.

Ok, you may be mistaking the context.
Yes, I believe he is wrong about the statement he made, but that isn't what I meant.
I meant the concept that I am trying to score points off of him by proving him wrong or whatever.
You know me better than this Paul, I am sure if you disconnect from this, you will get a better idea of what I am trying to do.
This is no difference to the wormtongue thread in that we have an issue, we need to deal with it and people can't or won't, so I am trying to push it, just with different words and a different technique.

Posted by Strat (here)

Posted by Davidallany (here)

Maybe I'm wrong, but you've been defending yourself for 8 pages against people

Wouldn't you defend your so called self if so many were attacking you, instead of your opinions. Telling you to leave if you don't agree with them, this is how this all started, with the very first original post yesterday carrying an intense negative energy within it, and picked up and snow balled and caught some Nobel Avalonians.

No, I always ignore derogatory posts.

I have been insulted a few times, though I've never responded. My metaphor has been this: When I go running I pass by a playground where children are screaming non sense. Sometimes they run up to the fence, shake it and scream at me, "hey look at that guy, yadda yadda." You know what I do? Ignore it because it's silliness.

I have never, not once, been in an argument on this forum. If you don't believe me you can check every post I've made.

Oh and LS, I imagine it's annoying having a 25yr old dude trying to give you advice. I'm not trying to be 'holier than thou or anything,' just calling it like I see it. God bless.

It isn't about age. You can give people advice that has merit, I am all ears if that is the case.
And I never took it that you were ''preaching'' at me.
I haven't seen you do that, so I wouldn't attribute that to you.

Posted by astrid (here)
"Sometimes in life the guy telling you the hard truth is more of a friend to you than the people patting you on the back."

Yeah... but thats my point on projection.

Are you not just trying to impose your truth on to others?

Alot of us already get this issue, and don't read the word "white" the same way you do.

It doesn't seem hold the same "charge" for us as it does for you.

I don't see skin color at all, personally , i just see the person.

Oneness is oneness.

Yes, that is possible, that I am projecting, but isn't that the whole point of discussion?
We throw things around and figure things out, then one mans opinion is NOT forced on all.
I don't want you guys to just go with what I say, I want you to THINK.

[Flash]

Posted by Strat (here)
This will be my first post in Avalon regarding this type of discussion. I always ignore this stuff, because when **** like this hits the fan, everyone turns ****ty. Lord Kharsh the Draco be with me...

Obviously the issue here is language. LS you are suggesting he inadvertently promoted racism through his post where he suggested white men have destroyed the environment, specifically in Australia. You claim you are aware that Bill is not racist but you must have an apology.

I think Bill is not apologizing for a few reasons. One, because he feels he's right (after reading Guns, Germs & Steel, I'd have to agree. I have an image in my mind of English explorers being carried on the backs of black natives across ponds/rivers because they were afraid of malaria or whatever.) Two if were going to be hyper-politically correct, where do we draw the line? How can we tell when someone is going to be offended or not? What he said wasn't blatantly racist by any means. You can say I'm wrong and that my system of understanding is inferior, though the majority of this forum agrees with my argument.

We're trying to chill you out because we value you, and you are over reacting.

Another issues is the way you responded. If we were to take a poll on whether or not Bill should have re-worded his post, I feel it would be one sided in his favor. I imagine even most white Australians would agree. If we were to take another poll on whether or not your posts in the beginning were derogatory, it would be one sided against you.

I don't know Bill, or you, but we are MEN. You don't go up to a man and start making demands and telling them how to act. I'm 25 and I respect everyone, especially my elders. I'm aware that I'm not Einstein, I haven't contributed much in the world, seen much, and I'm only good at shooting pool. However, I don't care if you're 65, if you're rude to me, then get out of my face and I won't respect you. If you responded differently like, "Bill please be easy with ____ and _____ it's a sore spot with me" then that would've been better.

Maybe I'm wrong, but you've been defending yourself for 8 pages against people. You may have reached the point where emotions are overriding rational thought. That doesn't mean you're jumping up and down and cursing, though I do question whether or not you're trying to help the forum or win an argument.

Despite all the thanks you had, I think you are beside the track Strat. I don't think Lord Sidious intent to be right, I think the intentions are elsewhere.

Also, the separativeness programmation is soooooooo ingrained in us that you made 2 here: age differences, and being a MAN . What difference does it make if you are a man or a woman. This is all the same, nobody likes to be forced into excuses no? Why an older person could not be stupid if he desires so, or have some flaws, as a young one (although I don't think Lord Sidious is in these posts)?.

Well, personnally, I think this is precisely what Lord Sidious is talking about, those ingrained programmation we have, the language we unconsciously use representing them, the images we unconsciously produce in our minds, the separations we provoke with it, without even seeing it.

Correct me if I am wong.

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by Flash (here)

Posted by Strat (here)
This will be my first post in Avalon regarding this type of discussion. I always ignore this stuff, because when **** like this hits the fan, everyone turns ****ty. Lord Kharsh the Draco be with me...

Obviously the issue here is language. LS you are suggesting he inadvertently promoted racism through his post where he suggested white men have destroyed the environment, specifically in Australia. You claim you are aware that Bill is not racist but you must have an apology.

I think Bill is not apologizing for a few reasons. One, because he feels he's right (after reading Guns, Germs & Steel, I'd have to agree. I have an image in my mind of English explorers being carried on the backs of black natives across ponds/rivers because they were afraid of malaria or whatever.) Two if were going to be hyper-politically correct, where do we draw the line? How can we tell when someone is going to be offended or not? What he said wasn't blatantly racist by any means. You can say I'm wrong and that my system of understanding is inferior, though the majority of this forum agrees with my argument.

We're trying to chill you out because we value you, and you are over reacting.

Another issues is the way you responded. If we were to take a poll on whether or not Bill should have re-worded his post, I feel it would be one sided in his favor. I imagine even most white Australians would agree. If we were to take another poll on whether or not your posts in the beginning were derogatory, it would be one sided against you.

I don't know Bill, or you, but we are MEN. You don't go up to a man and start making demands and telling them how to act. I'm 25 and I respect everyone, especially my elders. I'm aware that I'm not Einstein, I haven't contributed much in the world, seen much, and I'm only good at shooting pool. However, I don't care if you're 65, if you're rude to me, then get out of my face and I won't respect you. If you responded differently like, "Bill please be easy with ____ and _____ it's a sore spot with me" then that would've been better.

Maybe I'm wrong, but you've been defending yourself for 8 pages against people. You may have reached the point where emotions are overriding rational thought. That doesn't mean you're jumping up and down and cursing, though I do question whether or not you're trying to help the forum or win an argument.

Despite all the thanks you had, I think you are beside the track Strat. I don't think Lord Sidious intent to be right, I think the intentions are elsewhere.

Also, the separativeness programmation is soooooooo ingrained in us that you made 2 here: age differences, and being a MAN . What difference does it make if you are a man or a woman. This is all the same, nobody likes to be forced into excuses no? Why an older person could not be stupid if he desires so, or have some flaws, as a young one (although I don't think Lord Sidious is in these posts)?.

Well, personnally, I think this is precisely what Lord Sidious is talking about, those ingrained programmation we have, the language we unconsciously use representing them, the images we unconsciously produce in our minds, the separations we provoke with it, without even seeing it.

Correct me if I am wong.

You got it flash, you are not wrong.

[Davidallany]

Your are right about hard truth coming from real friends who extend their neck for us, even if it may be chopped

Wonderful and positive, your thoughts are, effortlessly flowing.. I think a good example of such people are Kerry, Bill, David Wilcock, Inelia, Jordan Maxwell, and the wonderful Bob Dean to name a few, those noble souls have been and are dedicating their lives for the sake of awakening as many of us as possible. I pray for them everyday. They deserve all we can give, especially spiritually, in money or physical assistance. Please let us all contribute something to the cause.

[astrid]

"I don't want you guys to just go with what I say, I want you to THINK."

We are thinking.

We just might not be thinking what u want us to think.

My Advice to you, for what its worth is get some sleep.

You health is more important than trying to convert us all to your way of thinking.

You might even see things differently when u wake.

Blessings,

Astrid

[Davidallany]

Oh and LS, I imagine it's annoying having a 25yr old dude trying to give you advice. I'm not trying to be 'holier than thou or anything,' just calling it like I see it. God bless.

Remember that we have the right to give advice to others, but they too have the right to no accept it. In the heart of action we remain free from it and it's attachment, otherwise if we attach to an end result and it doesn't happen we have a sense of dissatisfaction. We should be free ourselves from attaching to end results.
In my Buddhist culture we revere our elders, approach them with honour and deep respect. Even they are our seniors by one year.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by astrid (here)
My Advice to you, for what its worth is get some sleep.

I am considering closing this thread for perhaps an eight to twelve hour break, to give some a chance to sleep, some a chance to read and contribute to other good threads here, and some a chance to step back from this.

I will give at least a ten minute notice before doing so ... if I do so.

[Arc]

I want to say this has been a fascinating, and quite pithy thread, to say the least!

Bill, and Mods/Admins, I appreciate you letting it unfold, as Lord Sid has been very clear on many points, and respectful (albeit, a bit intense) and I realize he is not attacking anyone, nor the forum. He is making it stronger!

Lord Sid, I respect your passionate stand here, and it is really making me think. You are laying waste to empty arguments and popularity contests. And, you are presenting serious intellectual challenge to intellectual "Jedi" masters, so to speak. I don't see this as a battle being fought, but more of a class in session.

I have great respect for Bill and have great thanks for the hard job of the mods. No one is diminished here - no one. This is a great debate! and I am learning, even about my own inner perspectives on racial topics, subtle language, and subconscious guilt projected onto us by our history and predecessors.

And, I think that is what Avalon is about. Challenging us 'all', to think or rethink, or recalibrate, our perspectives/beliefs - together - in order to realize greater truth.

Are these growing pains?? Cheers!

[oceanz]

In this thread of questioning it does pose the challenge to all people on how to live in harmony with the environment and each other.

People are people and differences of color and shape shouldn't matter.

Prior to colonization which began in January 1788, the Australian Aborigines lived a lifestyle based on their Dreamtime beliefs. They had survived as a race for thousands of years and their lifestyle and cultural practices had remained virtually unchanged during that time. We refer to this as the traditional period.

When settlers followed the explorers and began felling trees and building farms, they restricted the ability of the Aborigines to move freely around their land. They also destroyed their traditional food sources.

The stereotype of Aborigines passively succumbing to the dictates of their environment has also been recently questioned. We now know that they altered the landscape in significant ways, using what has been called "firestick farming" to control underbrush growth and to facilitate hunting. Aborigines also altered species occurrence of flora and fauna by resource management and possibly assisted in the extinction of prehistoric animals.

Aboriginal people had to catch and collect their food, each and every day of their life. They were successful at doing this because they had an intimate knowledge of food-chain cycles, the migration patterns of birds and of the habitat where they lived. No doubt there were times when there were food shortages. But the essential point is that the Aboriginal people had a complete understanding of the flora and fauna within their tribal territory. They also engaged in land management practices - mainly burning grass and weeds.

Aboriginal culture was dynamic, not static.
http://www.crystalinks.com/aboriginals.html

As the Aboriginal race was not static who knows how they would've evolved if Australia wasn't colonialised and which race did or has the potential to do more damage to the environment ---> maybe not so much to do with a "race" but more to do with "greed".

[loveandgratitude]

Thank you Arc for your wonderful analogy...........well said.

LORD SID THIS IS DEVOTED TO YOU.....I KNOW YOU WILL LIKE THIS

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=pZnM7ABOk48

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by astrid (here)
"I don't want you guys to just go with what I say, I want you to THINK."

We are thinking.

We just might not be thinking what u want us to think.

My Advice to you, for what its worth is get some sleep.

You health is more important than trying to convert us all to your way of thinking.

You might even see things differently when u wake.

Blessings,

Astrid

I don't want you to think anything specific, I would like you guys to think about the issues we are having.
Why did camelot split into two?
Why did avalon split into two?
How far are we going to let all this go?
How do we fix these issues if we don't know what the cause is?
We know of the posts at nexus, that is yet another symptom of this whole thing.
And the mods and bill are not wrong, some of the posts are not right.

[astrid]

Its all very simple.

Separation is the problem

Oneness is the answer.

[Isthatso]

Posted by Arc (here)
I want to say this has been a fascinating, and quite pithy thread, to say the least!

Bill, and Mods/Admins, I appreciate you letting it unfold, as Lord Sid has been very clear on many points, and respectful (albeit, a bit intense) and I realize he is not attacking anyone, nor the forum. He is making it stronger!

Lord Sid, I respect your passionate stand here, and it is really making me think. You are laying waste to empty arguments and popularity contests. And, you are presenting serious intellectual challenge to intellectual "Jedi" masters, so to speak. I don't see this as a battle being fought, but more of a class in session.

I have great respect for Bill and have great thanks for the hard job of the mods. No one is diminished here - no one. This is a great debate! and I am learning, even about my own inner perspectives on racial topics, subtle language, and subconscious guilt projected onto us by our history and predecessors.

And, I think that is what Avalon is about. Challenging us 'all', to think or rethink, or recalibrate, our perspectives/beliefs - together - in order to realize greater truth.

Are these growing pains?? Cheers!

I agree.....I have slogged through the whole thread and view it as you do.

It's an expansion for me.

Thank you Sid and everyone contributing. I see no need to close this thread.

Peace and warm wishes.....

[zerohero]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

I miss the blue sky.

[DoubleHelix]

Posted by astrid (here)
Its all very simple.

Separation is the problem

Oneness is the answer.

Oneness is the answer only once the issues are stamped out

Like two positively charged magnets you can't bring two sides together whilst there's still underlying problems within both camps

I am not fully aware of what the exact issues may be, nor how to solve them but I believe this discussion could be on the right track.

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by DoubleHelix (here)

Posted by astrid (here)
Its all very simple.

Separation is the problem

Oneness is the answer.

Oneness is the answer only once the issues are stamped out

Like two positively charged magnets you can't bring two sides together whilst there's still underlying problems within both camps

I am not fully aware of what the exact issues may be, nor how to solve them but I believe this discussion could be on the right track.

We are getting there, some of you can now see what I am on about.

[astrid]

Not so.

You have a choice how u respond to your environment,

whether something is an "issue" or not is all up to you.

You see here is the big secret.

There is no duality, everything is actually neutral , thats the big illusion here.

It's just the spin that our mind puts onto things.

And yes , SID is right , its the programming we are all subjected too.

Awareness of that is the way out and through .

The magnet analogy doesn't fit here, as we have a lot more choice than what u might think.

A magnet does not.

Whether u get charged up by something is actually up to you.

I'm talking BIG picture here , which is the way i found out of the collective mud.

If u look at things from a higher vantage point, it does become clearer.

But i think this might be another topic, and another thread, ( maybe).

Time for me to bow out and watch a movie.

Blessings to all,

Astrid

[zerohero]

Posted by astrid (here)
Its all very simple.

Separation is the problem

Oneness is the answer.

I'd have to disagree with that on all points. It is not simple, separation isn't 'the problem' and oneness isn't 'the answer'.

Did you ever hear the one about the person that was meditating in the middle of a field being one with the universe and all that? Well while that was going on an elephant was charging right at the meditator and the meditator gets stomped. Afterward some people who saw this rush to the meditator and say 'Hey didn't you hear us warning you about the elephant coming your way?'. The meditator explains about being one with the universe and the beauty and love and blah blah blah.

What's the moral or deeper meaning of that story? I'm not that wise but it seems to me it's good idea to be vigilant in watching out for #1 in this world.

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by astrid (here)
Not so.

You have a choice how u respond to your environment,

whether something is an "issue" or not is all up to you.

You see here is the big secret.

There is no duality, everything is actually neutral , thats the big illusion here.

It's just the spin that our mind puts onto things.

And yes , SID is right , its the programming we are all subjected too.

Awareness of that is the way out and through .

The magnet analogy doesn't fit here, as we have a lot more choice than what u might think.

A magnet does not.

Whether u get charged up by something is actually up to you.

I'm talking BIG picture here , which is the way i found out of the collective mud.

If u look at things from a higher vantage point, it does become clearer.

But i think this might be another topic, and another thread, ( maybe).

Time for me to bow out and watch a movie.

Blessings to all,

Astrid

Thanks for that Astrid, you are right onto what I am trying to get across.
Enjoy your movie.