Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

[PurpleLama]

Thank gawd for rubber baby buggy bumpers.

[Borden]

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=jZicrp_p4BE

[Calz]

Posted by Borden (here)

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=jZicrp_p4BE

Now *that* is some bad ass bumper car sh!t goin' on!!!

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by PurpleLama (here)
I do wonder, could not a thought of the mind virus not be seen as the virus, itself?

Would one of it's primary modes of operation not consist in the corruption of the very things that could be most helpful it the exposure and removal of the virus, itself?

I started to answer this and it turned into something bigger so, not wanting to appear as if bombing your question with a heap of words, I moved it to a post.

[songsfortheotherkind]

My early morning response.

I have personally found that, in mapping the distortions of the virus, triangulation is good and isolation is not. It's why so many hackers get tricked into being trapped in their own heads, such as in schizophrenia or mental illness: no triangulation and mirror response possible. It's why I don't go into the 'no mind' space at all, because I've lived that and it nearly successfully destroyed me by eating my mind from the inside out, but I was so 'no mind' that I almost didn't notice until I could hear the screaming in my head from afar- WAKE UP! It was triangulation of a different kind, and I am grateful to my guides for caring enough to not allow me to be consumed.

Of course, that can be construed in an entirely different way: in the no mind state I was well on the way to achieving the emptiness, nothingness and disconnection that is the ultimate aim of the process, being a constant blank sky upon which the clouds move, being part of and connected to nothing at all, and that the urgent presences I heard and felt were nothing more than the virus desperately trying to prevent me from achieving that ultimate state and that they did not save me from oblivion and void but that void and nothing are where I was supposed to be going, so they're the virus. And all internal dialogue is the virus and that all thought is the virus.

I did think about that quite a few years ago:when I was trapped in a vicious mindtrap of 'can't trust my own thinking, can't trust anything at all' I used my core essence, kinesiology and other bodymind therapies to test it out. Of course, kinesiology could be just as much a trap, and all bodymind therapies, and anything else that appears to be of assistance in any way, because they too speak from the virus, so it's all a recursive trap and the only way 'out' is in no-mind, blankness, dissociation. I don't resonate to that though, and while I'm aware that this puts me in a certain unfavorable position within the presence of those that hold such views, I'm learning to disregard those no-mind views and the judgements, as subtle as they are, that goes along with them. I have a visceral reaction to it at present, which I'm working on releasing by simply turning towards what it is I want and letting go the other; I know I grow fangs in the presence of nihilism and I experience those philosophies as the ultimate in nihilism traps. I am working on turning away as peacefully and unattachedly from those as I now do with much of the rest of the noise I experience around me: it's one of the reasons I didn't have my female Manhattan picture in isolation, because I have no interest in that degree of dissociation, although Manhattan actually didn't stop thinking, exploring and experiencing, he just did those on a very diferent level.

I've met those those who like to think of themselves as 'godlike'. We passed each other by, not looking much at one another. I've met Creators and they definitely have creative and wondrous minds, even though these minds are very different to one another. I've never seen Creators creating in isolation though, they always do it in threes. It's also a pattern, that trinity, in many other places: when I first saw that pattern I thought I was being tricked by old religious stuff (not that I was ever catholic, I just knew about it) but it turns out it was the other way around, the trinity arrangement was being distorted. Of course, that also could be virus distortion and blah blah blah; so I triangulate things.

I find no assistance whatsoever in the no-mind philosophy- to me, it feels like death of the worse kind, like silently submitting to the gas chambers of the spirit. Which to me feels exactly like virus and what virus would want- just like the Matrix, endless miles of blank, empty minds inhabiting energy bodies, although in the matrix it was portrayed that those minds needed to be fed an illusion in order to be useful, but if you're going for numbers to make up for quality that's not so at all, which is what seems to be the current pattern.

It's curious, isn't it, that the no-mind advocates the ultimate sleepwalking? That even consciousness of Self is undesirable, a trap, a trick. Huh. Here's my response to that.











It reminds me of the Buffy episode where in one reality she's in the Buffyverse, and in another she's in a psychiatric ward with her concerned family around her and a bunch of doctor's trying to break her out of her 'illusion'- at the end of the episode she chooses the Buffyverse and the image of her griefstricken family as the doctor informed them that there was nothing they could do, she was 'gone' was really interesting. That's what I see happening here- and it reminds me further of what the Creators recently told me about the power of Choice and that *all* of Creation flows from this power, in making choices. I saw universes revealed and dissolved by this power; in a way, I'm watching it happening now, because there is also much power in the choice to make no choice- and those who refuse to make any choice at all, get their choices made for them by those who are willing to choose.

I'm a Creator, that's what I'm choosing to be. Others get to choose exactly what they wish to choose, including no-mind, *and* that's another choice, so in choosing they can't get to that space. Endless chasing of tails, leaving the creative energy there for someone else to use- and sometimes, those who would use it aren't the friendliest of beings either.

So in the end, I'm choosing my 'Verse, consciously, and gathering those around me who want to travel that path and are willing to triangulate together, with a view to



seeing what folderol we can get up to.

Even though Boromir's idea was stupid, it had its high points. Perhaps not for Frodo, this is true.

[another bob]

Sorry, Songs, but what you have described above as "no-mind" is actually one of the pit-fall states warned about in the classic Zen literature. Had you been involved in proper training with a qualified guide at the time, they would have likely been able to help wake you up from one of the delusional conditions often confused with "no-mind" by those who wander into such stagnant states unprepared. I've personally seen a lot of that over the years, especially in newbies at meditation who are trying to storm the gates of heaven by plunging into their fantasy of the path, and so have come to recognize the symptoms when it is described, as you have above. True no-mind is simply non-dwelling mind, which clings to neither polarity, and so is free to act spontaneously, without being burdened by fantasies or bound by pre-conceived notions, and is nothing like the empty blankness you have confused it with.

[PurpleLama]

Detachment only comes when a greater attachment comes along (to whats eternal, real), and it arises out of what for lack of a better term I will refer to as transcendental compassion. What I see in all this doesn't intersect with with anything like nihilism at all. What is being referred to as no mind in zen has nothing to do with the catatonic state of a damaged psyche, it has to do with the removal of all that hampers us from being what we really are, seeing what is without all the filters of the ego mind. Nothing in this takes the Creative Forces away from us, rather it points to intersecting with it far more directly. I understand that you've made some pretty powerful negative associations with some eastern and western mainstream religions, and so have I, but I didn't just throw the baby out with the bathwater, either. Without walking through the places of pure awareness, all this would just be words. Having the experience, however, I have no use for philosophy, either. I do, very much I do, love having these conversations with other individuals of all sorts of paths, unending amusement, for me, and it almost always leads to the same place, except for those who just really don't want it to, and that's cool, too.

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by another bob (here)
True no-mind is simply non-dwelling mind, which clings to neither polarity, and so is free to act spontaneously, without being burdened by fantasies or bound by pre-conceived notions, and is nothing like the empty blankness you have confused it with.

I was treated to an official, all silent Buddhist weekend retreat here locally just under a year ago. It was rented at a Catholic Monastary in a beautiful location by a longstanding group of the regular Buddhist practitioners. Flowing river out back laden with fish, huge ancient oaks dripping with moss all over, and even one of those labyrinths under an ancient oak or two that you can aimlessly meander through. I especially enjoyed that one!!!

The first 24 hours I thoroughly enjoyed. The silence, the wisdoms shared from the group 'guru', the shared energy from a room full of deep meditators, and even the added mental luxury of the sound of distant rumbling thunder late the first night.(That was awesome) It wasn't until some time after the of course silent and vegetarian breakfast the next morning, that a rather disturbing thought began creeping it's way into my fragile eggshell mind. "There's something very wrong with what this supposedly wise group leader is telling his people".

It was basically a constant drumbeat of "no mind", but meaning literally scrub your mind of ALL thought but "inbreath, outbreath". Any psychic type inklings? "Forget it, inbreath, outbreath". By the time we went home Sunday evening I was enduring mental claustrophobia. I even pulled an older woman aside just before we all left, to tell her I thought this man's advice to ignore her personal innermost promptings, in lieu of thinking "breath in, breath out", was ludicrous.

You know what the strangest part of the whole deal was though? Over dinner out that Sunday evening, the person, who is a regular in the group and paid for my weekend, insisted to no end I give my honest opinion about the 'guru'. When pressed against the wall, and no politically savvy comment was going to suffice, I finally had to be brutally honest and answer: "I'm sorry, but this man strikes me as arrogant, and he has nothing to teach me".

Maybe that sounds arrogant in itself, but it was the truth.

[PurpleLama]

Fifty nine guests.

*waves*

[another bob]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)

Posted by another bob (here)
True no-mind is simply non-dwelling mind, which clings to neither polarity, and so is free to act spontaneously, without being burdened by fantasies or bound by pre-conceived notions, and is nothing like the empty blankness you have confused it with.

I was treated to an official, all silent Buddhist weekend retreat here locally just under a year ago. It was rented at a Catholic Monastary in a beautiful location by a longstanding group of the regular Buddhist practitioners. Flowing river out back laden with fish, huge ancient oaks dripping with moss all over, and even one of those labyrinths under an ancient oak or two that you can aimlessly meander through. I especially enjoyed that one!!!

The first 24 hours I thoroughly enjoyed. The silence, the wisdoms shared from the group 'guru', the shared energy from a room full of deep meditators, and even the added mental luxury of the sound of distant rumbling thunder late the first night.(That was awesome) It wasn't until some time after the of course silent and vegetarian breakfast the next morning, that a rather disturbing thought began creeping it's way into my fragile eggshell mind. "There's something very wrong with what this supposedly wise group leader is telling his people".

It was basically a constant drumbeat of "no mind", but meaning literally scrub your mind of ALL thought but "inbreath, outbreath". Any psychic type inklings? "Forget it, inbreath, outbreath". By the time we went home Sunday evening I was enduring mental claustrobia. I even pulled an older woman aside just before we all left, to tell her I thought this man's advice to ignore her personal innermost promptings, in lieu of thinking "breath in, breath out", was ludicrous.

You know what the strangest part of the whole deal was though? Over dinner out that Sunday evening, the person who is a regular in the group and paid for my weekend, insisted to no end I give my honest opinion about the 'guru'. When pressed against the wall, and no politically savvy comment was going to suffice, I finally had to be brutally honest and answer: "I'm sorry, but this man strikes me as arrogant, and he has nothing to teach me".

Maybe that sounds arrogant in itself, but it was the truth.

Hiya Fred!

Many so-called Buddhist teachers I've encountered over more than 4 decades of Buddhist practice were not qualified to be teaching, imo. In any generation, there are very few who are truly mature in their own practice, and of those, there are even less who can communicate coherently. I feel lucky to have met a couple of good ones, so I developed a certain standard by which to measure, in that regard.
I also spent my early years with Catholics, and never met one priest out of hundreds who was a psychologically well-developed human being. Moreover, I've met plenty of Hindus and Neo-Hindus, New Agers, atheists, shamans, and assorted philosophers, preachers, and salespeople for this or that bit of fantasy being pawned off as truth, and have rarely found any among them that were not simply full of sh*t. I have stayed away from the whole bunch for the last decade, and that has suited me quite nicely.
Frankly, I get more out of sitting in my garden these days than I ever did in most of the venues in which I once participated. Fortunately, the few authentic guides I was graced to encounter served my own practice well enough that I've been able to take what they shared with me and work with it. They never really did anything but point me back to myself, for which I am truly grateful. Of course, my best teacher has been my Beloved, for had my heart not been opened, none of the rest would have been worth a damn anyway.

[Playdo of Ataraxas]

I'm a little late on the draw for Jesus pics, but I didn't see this one, so what the hell.......

[Carmody]

Posted by another bob (here)
Sorry, Songs, but what you have described above as "no-mind" is actually one of the pit-fall states warned about in the classic Zen literature. Had you been involved in proper training with a qualified guide at the time, they would have likely been able to help wake you up from one of the delusional conditions often confused with "no-mind" by those who wander into such stagnant states unprepared. I've personally seen a lot of that over the years, especially in newbies at meditation who are trying to storm the gates of heaven by plunging into their fantasy of the path, and so have come to recognize the symptoms when it is described, as you have above. True no-mind is simply non-dwelling mind, which clings to neither polarity, and so is free to act spontaneously, without being burdened by fantasies or bound by pre-conceived notions, and is nothing like the empty blankness you have confused it with.

Ditto!

Ignore all the inner bitching, until the darned thing stills itself. slowly ease into it....

I wandered into it by myself, and simply spent the time letting the inner paisley wallpaper insanity work itself out. It too shall pass, I reasoned.

Before I began, I understood that this was not just dimensional, not just spiritual, it was physical.....and the physical mind takes time to re-wire.

therefore..I waited it out and spent the time ingraining the new channels... the new ways which were merely old..lost ones. Ones that were atrophied, from disuse.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by PurpleLama (here)
Detachment only comes when a greater attachment comes along (to whats eternal, real), and it arises out of what for lack of a better term I will refer to as transcendental compassion. What I see in all this doesn't intersect with with anything like nihilism at all. What is being referred to as no mind in zen has nothing to do with the catatonic state of a damaged psyche, it has to do with the removal of all that hampers us from being what we really are, seeing what is without all the filters of the ego mind. Nothing in this takes the Creative Forces away from us, rather it points to intersecting with it far more directly. I understand that you've made some pretty powerful negative associations with some eastern and western mainstream religions, and so have I, but I didn't just throw the baby out with the bathwater, either. Without walking through the places of pure awareness, all this would just be words. Having the experience, however, I have no use for philosophy, either. I do, very much I do, love having these conversations with other individuals of all sorts of paths, unending amusement, for me, and it almost always leads to the same place, except for those who just really don't want it to, and that's cool, too.

I'm blipping in and out today, thanks so much for your perspective and I'm looking forward to sitting down and replying.

I do get the expansive state, I go there a lot, I meditate a lot, and I have different experiences in the meditative states. I don't have the experience of throwing any baby out at all. I just know what I don't like and there are elements of that thinking that, if one takes it to its conclusion, there is the state and experiences Fred talks about. Different strokes for different folks, and different realms if that's how it works out.

I don't consider that my utter disinterest in the states mentioned means I'm somehow deluded, distorted or deficient. *dances*

[another bob]

Posted by Playdo of Ataraxas (here)
I'm a little late on the draw for Jesus pics, but I didn't see this one, so what the hell.......

[Playdo of Ataraxas]

What I saw when I read *dances*

[another bob]

Posted by Carmody (here)
Ignore all the inner bitching, until the darned things still itself. slowly ease into it....

I wandered into it by myself, and simply spent the time letting the inner paisley wallpaper insanity work itself out. It too shall pass, I reasoned.

Before I began, I understood that this was not just dimensional, not just spiritual, it was physical.....and the physical mind takes time to re-wire.

therefore..I waited it out and spent the time ingraining the new channels... the new ways which were merely old..lost ones. Ones that were atrophied, from disuse.

Brother, you have uncommonly sharp intuiton -- most are not so blessed, and end up at the mercy of fools. That in itself can also be a blessing, since it shows one where not to go, but unfortunately, such lessons usually come with a hefty price tag in terms of damage to the psyche.

[Playdo of Ataraxas]

In my earliest, nascent attempts at meditation, I sought what Fred eloquently described as a mind-scrub of all thoughts. I found that quite unachievable. Maybe my natural ADD brain. What became natural to me, was to direct my meditation towards a useful, selfless end, a contemplative prayer of sorts. Meaning, I realized I was here to use my meditative ability as a form of prayer and action. As a builder, carpenter, tinkerer, and Capricorn, I prefer to be active even in stillness. I find that I am wired to extend an innate ability, which was only discovered through trial and error, to serve others and the world at large. By concentrating on affecting positive change on a small scale at first (my immediate environment), I realized that I could affect conscious change on a large scale (reference to the dance of Shiva, pictured in the post above). It was then that I became who I am and who I am continuing to evolve to be: my higher self that is ONE with all and that has always been. I found myself, so to say.

Bob, I read an earlier post of yours that I agree with regarding the non-necessity of performing an ascetic asana position to meditate. This was also one of my earlier, neophyte attempts at meditation and self-discovery. It hurt my knees, and created soreness. I like to sit much as you are in your avatar picture. This naturally evolved to maintaining that state while walking or working, constantly. Though, to be honest, it is difficult and seemingly impossible for me to remain there always, given the rigors of family and career, though that is what I strive for. The stillness Carmody mentions, I believe, can be maintained while in motion.

I reckon what I'm trying to say is that meditation, to me, isn't about Self, but about others.

The best way to equate what my earliest attempts at achieving the mind-scrub meditative state would be the picture below. This relates, less or more, the type of images that would cloud and distract my mind.

P.S. This thread is new to me, and a lot fun, and very rewarding! Thanks Songs.

[another bob]

Posted by Playdo of Ataraxas (here)
In my earliest, nascent attempts at meditation, I sought what Fred eloquently described as a mind-scrub of all thoughts. I found that quite unachievable. Maybe my natural ADD brain.

Hiya Play!

There is nothing wrong with your brain, and unfortunately there has been a great misdirection circulating around that meditation is about some sort of mind scrub. True meditation is not anything of the sort. If it were, dead logs would be awakened beings, eh. Properly understood, thoughts are not the problem. The problem is fixation, or identifying with certain thoughts to the point that consciousness forgets its true nature and takes itself to be the transient thought, idea, or interpretation on perception. It is this identification or fixation where suffering is born, based on a simple case of mistaken identity.
In true meditation, thoughts are allowed to arise and dissolve without clinging or avoidance. We are not the thoughts, but their witness. Actually, we are not even the witness, but this takes some depth of insight to directly cognize. Attempts to manipulate thouhts (ie scrub them) are just more thoughts. As the process continues, without identifying with thoughts, they will eventually subside to some extent, and a kind of clarity emerges. By using this clarity to go to the source of thought, and abide there, with sincerity and persistence, a revelation is possible, which consists of a dawning recognition of who and what we actually are prior to all mental fabrication and presumed identity.
Even that is not the real purpose, however. It's actually just the preliminaries, because having directly glimpsed our true nature, we are now faced with the challenge of embodying that insight in the way we behave in the world, and in our relations. Even though we may have had a profound glimpse, we are likely still carrying around a lot of neurotic baggage, which has to be seen through and released, and that's not going to happen on a meditation cushion, but in the marketplace, in the midst of relationship. The value of the meditiative insight is that, if properly supported, it acts like a steering mechanism, allowing us to act authentically, without the superimposition of fantasies and false self-images. In other words, it aids us in being who and what we really are.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by another bob (here)
Sorry, Songs, but what you have described above as "no-mind" is actually one of the pit-fall states warned about in the classic Zen literature. Had you been involved in proper training with a qualified guide at the time, they would have likely been able to help wake you up from one of the delusional conditions often confused with "no-mind" by those who wander into such stagnant states unprepared. I've personally seen a lot of that over the years, especially in newbies at meditation who are trying to storm the gates of heaven by plunging into their fantasy of the path, and so have come to recognize the symptoms when it is described, as you have above. True no-mind is simply non-dwelling mind, which clings to neither polarity, and so is free to act spontaneously, without being burdened by fantasies or bound by pre-conceived notions, and is nothing like the empty blankness you have confused it with.

I sat with this reply and wondered, is there any way that I am going to be able to say what I want to say without it being viewed in some negative way? And I thought, probably not, given what I want to say, no matter how carefully I craft the language. So I went with honesty.

And with that you very politely and nicely suggest, yet again, that there's something delusional about my perspective. Which in itself echoes the issues that I have with those who follow the particular philosophies that you mention: somehow, those of us who don't agree with them, or experience them vastly differently, or aren't interested in them, are somehow defective, or lower vibration, or whatever.

I see what's happen', thar. Um, no thanks. The language itself sticks out a mile, but the subtle-and not so subtle- insinuations are the real kicker. You've done that before, a couple of times now, and I'm bowing politely and withdrawing. I didn't ask for lessons in the no-mind, I certainly wasn't asking for some kind of negative diagnosis, I am not interested in the space of no-mind and I'm not interested in the philosophy that those like me are somehow deficient because we don't agree. I told you awhile ago that I was keeping my distance from you and now I'm restating it, politely and with full sui generis: I am following a different path, one that is not in any way at all inferior to yours. It's different, utterly, and in no way inferior. I'm not interested in gurus, heteronomy of any kind, or homogeny. I don't need agreement. I don't agree with you. I'll pass on the superior tone put downs, thanks, no matter in what flowery terms they're couched or what gurus are quoted to support the position.

I'm more than delighted that you are here sharing this space. I'm not thrilled with the judgements, but that happens. We'll see, in this micro experiment, if it's indeed possible for Beings of vastly different perspectives to co-habit the same 'Verse, or if they really do need separate spaces to play in, which is what my recent musings have been about. Otherwise, it's a continual repeat of the old, old, boring stories of this group is superior to that group, this skin superior to that skin, this religion/philosophy superior, blibble wibble, and hasn't that been done to death? I would have thought that those following a philosophy that supports attachment to nothing would have had little interest in creating hierarchies, but there it is- oddly, also reflected in every religious expression, both eastern, western and inbetween: the hierarchies of heaven and earth- I think the only one I've ever heard about that isn't a hierarchy on this plane are the Quakers, but then their heaven is.

Go figure. Hierarchy, domination and control, on even the most subtle of planes. Now why *is* that, I wonder? What kind of Beings are interested in that, really?

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by Playdo of Ataraxas (here)
P.S. This thread is new to me, and a lot fun, and very rewarding! Thanks Songs.

Thanks for the post, and you're welcome.

Also, the first time I saw that Lionel Ritchie poster I cracked up laughing. Truly awesome. :D