The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

[Carmody]

And right now, I'm heading outside to find a hunter. Someone is hunting illegally on the property, in the area.

Where I live, I hear gunfire, all day, every day.

This particular bit of gunfire came from the wrong direction.

BRB......

edit:

OK, it was just the wind blowing around the sound of shotguns from the other range, so I aurally mislocated the gunfire origins, from inside the house.

[Flash]

I am happy it was just that Carmody. At the beginning of the reading, I wonder if it was not a follow up on the Nevada calls.

[Carmody]

Posted by Flash (here)
I am happy it was just that Carmody. At the beginning of the reading, I wonder if it was not a follow up on the Nevada calls.

No worries about such things, no big deal. It's all just little bits of connectivity in motion, is all.

[PurpleLama]

Yes, Carmody, broad is the application of that statement.

[TargeT]

If you choose to blame the military and consider them all demons, I think you should label all tax payers the same as well. All t hose who allow the government status quo to continue through in-action; do no tangible thing to make a change & through their acquiesce and complacency support the machinery that oppresses us all.

In my avatar, that is an Army uniform, I wear it every day.

I am not as proud as I used to be of my line of work; I have seen through patriotism and nationalism and no longer feel I am supporting a country whose ideals I believe in. For a while I used to consider myself "better" than the average citizen who WOULD NOT sacrifice years of service as I have to support the country they benefit from; but that was a much younger me.

I have 6 years of active duty under my belt, and deployments (of course, almost unavoidable during these times) I have never fired a single shot outside of this country that wasn't at a paper target or a sand berm. I carried 120 rounds of 5.56 in pouches on my body armor, I wore a ballistic helmet and had an M4 within reach for a year in Iraq and while I was shot at, endured rocket and mortar attacks and IED's were set off in my direction (luckily all were poorly aimed) I never used this equipment for its intended purpose.

I have been in uniform since 1999, I was in service during 9/11/2001; my last deployment ended in 2007. I am glad that I choose to do what I have done, I have a deep understanding of what most (especially in this thread) speculate on.

I understand comradery

I understand combat

I understand patriotism & nationalism (from the ignorant view point that I held early on)

I understand tragedy, not everyone comes home, the countries we occupy suffer for it as well.

I understand what an occupying force does to the country it occupies and why a military force should NEVER be a "peace keeping" (or police) force.

I know Iraqis and Kosovans, I know their perspective of the US and its allies (and I bet you would be supprised at what it is).

I know and can articulate why we (the US) need to vacate our some 550 foreign bases and bring our troops home (not because they are devils or demons btw)

I have learned these things and much more, in fact everything that I post on this forum is related to my military experience. Without it I would not have started to question, started to seek answers.

I am now in the National guard (I thought it a better alternative to active duty army, a higher moral ground while still being in position to help those in need and defend my country, I was wrong) I continue to learn and grow, my experiences are as needed as yours according to my understanding of this reality we are experiencing. I think judgment binds us tighter into the trap of duality, acceptance; love, is the answer.
If you want to blame someone and hold a polarized view, fine, hold up a mirror and point at it, you'll find the perfect enemy there pointing back at you.

[Vitalux]

Posted by bram (here)
The Armed forces- heroes or demons?

All comes down to perspective.

The fox is a demon to the rabbit but, a hero to it's own offspring.



Demons are imaginary.

[Mark]

The responses continue to interest, although I'm not interested in debate or argumentation. Here in this forum we discuss all of the ills of society and nations in the world, so there is no need to reproduce the economic or material discussions here, at least for me. Those truths of our reality bind us together in complicity, warriors and non-warriors alike. If we participate, benefit in any way from society, to the extent that we nenifit - taking into account the hierarchical structure of soceity, the benefits acrruing to certain segments over others, sub-group and personal karmic accruement and other factors - we are all implicit and in measured part responsible for it in its positive and negative qualities., as others have also said.

Obviously, for those who have been on the battlefield, or have been faced with the very real opportunity of finding themselves there, killing, warfare and death are among the things they have considered very deeply. Some of them make the choice to become warriors because it is a family tradition, others do so because they feel called to it, while still others do it because they feel they have no other option. Regardless, the choice of a martial life is not only a material choice, it is a spiritual choice. Here is the issue from another perspective.

Everyone has a fate. Everyone must die. And yet, there is, according to the highest understanding, no death. Consciousness is eternal. Since that is so, it follows that death is a gateway. The method of death, a result of previous actions or in-actions during life (or lives) leading to an inevitable outcome.

I'm going to post a few quotes from the Baghavad-Gita concerning the topic, wherein Hrishikesha/Krishna, states the following to Arjuna, who was afraid and did not want to die or kill:

You are mourning for that which should not
be mourned for, though you have said the words of wisdom.
But the wise bemoans neither the living nor the
dead!

2:12. For, verily, never there was a time when I or
you or these kings did not exist; and, verily, we will not
cease to exist in the future.

2:13. Just as a soul dwelling in a body goes through
childhood, maturity, and old age, so it leaves one body
and enters another. The strong one does not grieve about
this.

2:14. The contact with matter, O Kaunteya, produces
feelings of heat and cold, of pleasure and pain. These
feelings are transient: they come and go. Endure them
with fortitude, O Bharata!

2:15. The one who is unmoved by them, O greatest of
men, who remains sober and unfaltering in joy and in
trouble — such one is able to attain Immortality.

For those who don’t know, the Bhagavad-Gita is the story of Krishna and Arjuna, on the battlefield of Kurukshetra. Krisha, the Supreme Personality of Godhead has incarnated into Arjuna’s extended family and has chosen to be Arjuna’s charioteer in the final battle between warring factions of that selfsame family. Arjuna, facing a battle as a result of which he is expected to kill his friends, family members and mentors, despairs and falls prey to fear and attachment, both qualities that Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead spends the entire text exhorting against. It is an amazing story and a sublime treaties upon the ideas of karma and dharma, one’s cause/effect relationship with the cosmos and one’s duty to one’s family group, culture and world. More:

2:16. Know that the transient, impermanent has no
true existence, and the eternal, imperishable never ceases to exist! This is discerned by those who have perceived the essence of things and see the truth.

2:17. Know that no one can destroy Him Who pervades the entire universe! No one can bring Him to death! That Eternal and Imperishable is beyond the control of anyone!

2:18. Only the body of an embodied soul is perishable, but the soul itself is eternal and indestructible. Fight, therefore, O Bharata!

2:19. They who think that they can kill and they who
think that they can be killed are mistaken! Man can neither kill nor can be killed!

2:20. Man neither appears, nor disappears; having once come into being,
man never ceases to be. Man, an immortal soul, does not perish when the body is destroyed!

2:21. The one who knows that man is an imperishable, eternal, unborn, and immortal soul — how such one can kill or be killed?

2:22. As one throws off worn-out clothes and puts
on others that are new — so a soul throws off worn-out
bodies and enters new ones.

2:23. Weapons cannot cut a soul, fire cannot burn it,
water cannot wet it, nor can wind wither it.

2:24. Nothing can cut, burn, wet, or wither a soul
— uncutable, unburnable, unwettable, unwitherable.

2:25. A soul — non-incarnate — is said to be unmanifest, formless, and imperishable.
Therefore, knowing this, you should not grieve!

2:26. Even if you thought that a soul gets born and
dies again and again, even then, O mighty-armed, you
should not grieve!

2:27. Verily, death is predestinated for the born one,
and birth is unavoidable for the one who has died. Do
not grieve over what is inevitable!

When the above quote is written, it is Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead speaking, remonstrating Arjuna for refusing to fight. It was his destiny, Krishna exhorted, and for him to refuse to fight because his relatives were on the other side would be worse than him dying on the field of battle. They were dead already, Krishna argued, unarguably so, since nobody ever really dies, the Soul being eternal in nature. Furthermore, to live as a coward and lose all respect was much worse than dying as a hero, thereby fulfilling his dharmic and caste responsibilities. As a Ksatriya, a warrior-protector, killing in the name of Krishna was his chosen dharmic path to a Heavenly reward.

2:28. All beings are unmanifest before the material manifestation, and unmanifest after. They are manifest only in the middle, O Bharata! What is the reason to grieve, then?

2:29. Some think about soul as a wonder, others speak of it as a wonder,
and there are those who having come to know about it cannot understand what it means.

2:30. The incarnate can never be killed, O Bharata!
Therefore, do not mourn any killed creature!

As Jesus the Christ exhorted his disciples, and taught them through their failings to ‘become like him’, so Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead exhorted Arjuna that he was the All, and that each aspect of Creation – from the mineral to the animal kingdom – was some small part (atomic) of Him, conscious and eternally existing. On the issue of dharma, or the fate of those who kill:

2:31. And thinking of your own dharma, you should
not waver, O Arjuna! Verily, for a kshatriya there is nothing more desirable than a righteous war!

2:32. Lucky are those kshatriyas, O Bharata, to whose
lot falls such a battle; it is like an open gate to Heaven!

2:33. But if you withdraw now from this righteous
battle, refusing your dharma and your honor, then you
will incur sin.

2:34. All people will know about your eternal disgrace. And for the glorious one, disgrace is worse than
death!

2:35. The great warriors on chariots will think that
fear made you flee from the battlefield. And you, whom
they esteemed so much, will be despised by them.

2:36. Your enemies will say many mean words slandering your valor. What is more painful?

2:37. Killed — you will go to paradise; winner —
you will enjoy the Earth. Arise therefore, O Kaunteya,
and be ready to fight!

2:38. Regarding alike joy and sorrow, success and
failure, victory and defeat, — enter this battle! Thus you
will avoid sin!

As long as we are incarnate in form in a world of duality, there will be Defenders and there will be those who must be defended. That is the way of it, while we are here and this earth-realm remains as it is. Many religions exhort their warriors to kill in defense of their people and their God. But before responding to this msg by stating that Religion is terrible and evil re-read the first quote above regarding the Eternal Nature of Consciousness.

Armies through time and across space are filled with people who represent extremes between Good and Evil, as are all groups and institutions. There are Demons and there are Angels, Psychopaths and Samaritans. Because of the peculiar purpose of the military, of the warrior-imperative, the moral median most probably actually tends more toward a higher conscious awareness of moral and spiritual responsibility.

If it is not your Path, sobeit. But there should be respect for those whose Path it is, as there should be respect for all life-choices leading to the evolution (or even devolution) of a person, group or the human family in general, no matter how far outside of our own personal orientations they might be. Choice and free-will remain our overriding imperatives.

[Kiforall]

I think the soldiers will soon be the worlds heroes.

With society as it is today, no jobs, no decent healthcare, racism, instigated terrorism, gangs, propaganda, lack of housing, low pensions, expensive further education, low self esteem etc,etc. Joining the army offers a security that can be very tempting.

There will be young people who go out to kill Muzzies because society has caused racial hatred by trying to force integration. All part of Common Purpose. Just because they can't see through that at the moment doesn't mean they are demons.

People who believe being a soldier will provide security for their families and go into the Army believing that they are going out there to help provide security to other families living in e.g. Iraq or Afganistan can't be classed as demons.

They do not know at the time that if they die their wives will be offered no support and will have to fight for every penny owed to them. They do not realize that if anything happens to their wives that their children may end up in a social security system that could easily place them in homes where god knows who will do god knows what to them. They do not know that the politicians and Royal family for whom they serve care nothing for their children.

They do not realize that when they come back without limbs that they are being part of an experiment to produce robotic prosthetics.

They do not realize that emotional support will be useless to heal the post traumatic stress they undergo.

When they do realize this how are they going to feel?
Some are past caring and some may well be too far gone to do anything about it but I believe the real men will feel ashamed, embarrased, furious, manipulated just like alot of us have been when we find out the truth.

How anyone can have anything but sympathy for the soldiers is beyond me when they have to re-live the deaths of the innocent people they have killed and can no longer justify it by using the crap the elite have filled them with (because they will know eventually it is all ****ocks) imagine how they will feel?

They will gain respect from the people by laying down their weapons and telling the elite to fight their own wars.

And lets hope they can forgive us for allowing this to happen because as in other posts we have allowed the world to become like this, somewhere along the path.

No one is innocent no matter how we feel about it now.

Zoe x