The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

[Isthatso]

Dear Friends...
(I'm borrowing Bill's lovely approach)

Let's take a shot at it....together.

Camelot was before my time, but it was presented as a new direction taken by both Bill and Kerry, each fine tuning their paths. With the possibility of manipulation by tptb wanting to divide and conquer.....??? That's my take.

Avalon....same as above. I'm still unsure how much manipulation and from whom. As I wasn't privy to the moderating team, I simply don't know, however, Charles appears to have been the catalyst here and left as soon as this was achieved.

I'm of the opinion that people in general, myself included, are easily played on an emotional level and are often unable to get past that.

I'm simply not clear yet and it has troubled me for a while.

Warm wishes..

[Lord Sidious]

Ok, time for Uncle Sidious to retire to the rest chamber.
Almost 24 hours without sleep now.
Don't you avalonuggets mess the place up while I am gone, or there will be trouble!
I got a whole load of carrots in yesterday.

[sandy]

Posted by Flash (here)

Posted by Strat (here)
This will be my first post in Avalon regarding this type of discussion. I always ignore this stuff, because when **** like this hits the fan, everyone turns ****ty. Lord Kharsh the Draco be with me...

Obviously the issue here is language. LS you are suggesting he inadvertently promoted racism through his post where he suggested white men have destroyed the environment, specifically in Australia. You claim you are aware that Bill is not racist but you must have an apology.

I think Bill is not apologizing for a few reasons. One, because he feels he's right (after reading Guns, Germs & Steel, I'd have to agree. I have an image in my mind of English explorers being carried on the backs of black natives across ponds/rivers because they were afraid of malaria or whatever.) Two if were going to be hyper-politically correct, where do we draw the line? How can we tell when someone is going to be offended or not? What he said wasn't blatantly racist by any means. You can say I'm wrong and that my system of understanding is inferior, though the majority of this forum agrees with my argument.

We're trying to chill you out because we value you, and you are over reacting.

Another issues is the way you responded. If we were to take a poll on whether or not Bill should have re-worded his post, I feel it would be one sided in his favor. I imagine even most white Australians would agree. If we were to take another poll on whether or not your posts in the beginning were derogatory, it would be one sided against you.

I don't know Bill, or you, but we are MEN. You don't go up to a man and start making demands and telling them how to act. I'm 25 and I respect everyone, especially my elders. I'm aware that I'm not Einstein, I haven't contributed much in the world, seen much, and I'm only good at shooting pool. However, I don't care if you're 65, if you're rude to me, then get out of my face and I won't respect you. If you responded differently like, "Bill please be easy with ____ and _____ it's a sore spot with me" then that would've been better.

Maybe I'm wrong, but you've been defending yourself for 8 pages against people. You may have reached the point where emotions are overriding rational thought. That doesn't mean you're jumping up and down and cursing, though I do question whether or not you're trying to help the forum or win an argument.

Despite all the thanks you had, I think you are beside the track Strat. I don't think Lord Sidious intent to be right, I think the intentions are elsewhere.

Also, the separativeness programmation is soooooooo ingrained in us that you made 2 here: age differences, and being a MAN . What difference does it make if you are a man or a woman. This is all the same, nobody likes to be forced into excuses no? Why an older person could not be stupid if he desires so, or have some flaws, as a young one (although I don't think Lord Sidious is in these posts)?.

Well, personnally, I think this is precisely what Lord Sidious is talking about, those ingrained programmation we have, the language we unconsciously use representing them, the images we unconsciously produce in our minds, the separations we provoke with it, without even seeing it.

Correct me if I am wong.

IMHO you are right on the mark Dear Flash

[Davidallany]

No, I always ignore derogatory posts.

I have been insulted a few times, though I've never responded. My metaphor has been this: When I go running I pass by a playground where children are screaming non sense. Sometimes they run up to the fence, shake it and scream at me, "hey look at that guy, yadda yadda." You know what I do? Ignore it because it's silliness.

Yes true, I do the same if that was the case, but it's not. This is a bit more serious, there are no children here, not on Avalon, we are mature people, with messages of hope, unity and love. And although it's important to not take things personally, remain objective to the best of your ability, be patient, and polite. It is also as important to protect important issues from ridicule, sarcasm and dismissal, in a peaceful way, as well as try to bring peace and stillness to agitation and turmoil. Ignoring is an intelligent temporary measure, but sooner or later one has to face the imaginary demons in this imaginary existence. Mind is everything.

[gigha]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=4awZoGIefcE

If you could Lord Please
and goodnight. xxx

[sandy]

Posted by Lord Sidious (here)
Ok, time for Uncle Sidious to retire to the rest chamber.
Almost 24 hours without sleep now.
Don't you avalonuggets mess the place up while I am gone, or there will be trouble!
I got a whole load of carrots in yesterday.

Good Night Lord Sidious,

Hope you get some real good sleep as you have had a long row of carrots to hoe in the past 24 hours. WOW! what a gardener you are

[mondaze]

the legal mind in action, nice work rob, promoting thought rather than obedience.

[Strat]

Posted by Flash (here)
Despite all the thanks you had, I think you are beside the track Strat. I don't think Lord Sidious intent to be right, I think the intentions are elsewhere.

Also, the separativeness programmation is soooooooo ingrained in us that you made 2 here: age differences, and being a MAN . What difference does it make if you are a man or a woman. This is all the same, nobody likes to be forced into excuses no? Why an older person could not be stupid if he desires so, or have some flaws, as a young one (although I don't think Lord Sidious is in these posts)?.

Well, personnally, I think this is precisely what Lord Sidious is talking about, those ingrained programmation we have, the language we unconsciously use representing them, the images we unconsciously produce in our minds, the separations we provoke with it, without even seeing it.

Correct me if I am wong.

I don't mean to correct you, so much as make my perspective clear to everyone.

Where you said "LS doesn't intend to be right, his intentions are elsewhere," I don't know what you mean. Why wouldn't you want to be right?

I'm going to address the age thing as well as the 'man' thing.

I said to him that I didn't want to come across as pious because I'm younger than him: I imagine, statistically, older people have more wisdom and often more knowledge in general than younger. I know it's not black and white like that, but many perceive it that way. I was raised this way. Many people don't like having a young buck giving them advice. Is that programming? Maybe. The fact is that it's very common in society and if he felt that way I wanted to make sure I didn't offend him.

Right now a lot of people are jumping on him. I wanted to make it clear that I am aware I likely have less life experience. I said it out of respect for him. If he were one of the people that falls under the statistic of not liking young guys giving advice, my comment would alleviate that. From there, he knows I'm trying to help, not attack like others. I don't know him, so I'm crossing my t's and dotting my i's so that I don't offend his sensibilities. What's so wrong with that?

There has to be some level where age matters. Maybe it's just me, but I don't feel as though my niece has a lot of wisdom. She's cute, but she doesn't know much about life. This is why I try to teach and protect her. So the counter-argument is, "well that's a 3 year old that doesn't count." OK, fair enough, where do we draw the line? Teens? 20s? People translate this differently and I try not to excite sensibilities.

I am not an 'ageist.' If I came across that way then I apologize I wasn't more clear. I really try hard to be articulate, I pride myself in this (this post is taking 30+ minutes). I will say it again, I am not an ageist, and I won't get into a semantical argument about this.

For the 'man' thing: Maybe this is programming. You may absolutely, be 100% correct. If it is programming, it needs to be acknowledged and we can't attack sensibilities just because they shouldn't exist. We must be compassionate and understanding to change the programming. If you don't address sensibilities like this you will face aggression real quick. If someone walks up to me in the bar, slaps the beer out of my hand and curses my mother, I'll punch them in the chin. If you do this to a girl, she may hit you, or she may get her boyfriend or a man she's with. This has been going on since humans realized they can get drunk. Guys love establishing dominance, OF COURSE this is not all guys, but in general. This is open to debate, though I feel it's not 50/50. Most guys would love to be the knight in shining armor, Superman, or whatever. The star, the guy nobody messes with.

Again, you may be right, the more I think about it, I agree with you. Growing up I participated in martial arts. This is probably because I wanted to be the billy bad ass I saw on TV. There are millions upon millions of guys like this. To be the knight in shinning armor, you have to know how to throw a jab-hook, 1-2.

This may be a backwards, perverse part of society but it is ingrained in the minds of MEN. Many of us are highly likely to rail against any perceived aggression, puff the chest out kind of thing. Here's the thing, even if I am aware of it, and train myself to be a calm person, it's the 'clutch time' that counts. Many men can be understanding, though when someone starts telling them what to do something happens in their brain. Adrenalin starts getting released and that old 'monkey pounding on the chest' instinct comes out of us. Often times, people (men and women I know, I know) get into discussions, then it evolves into resisting the angry emotions. This is where emotion starts to cloud thoughts. It's natural. I think men have a higher probability to 'pound the chest' than women. I do find that odd, because it seems women have a hard time making friends with other women. Maybe the girls I know are crazy, anyway..

So the answer is compassion. It's this knee-jerk reaction that causes fights. LS didn't show compassion or awareness of what I'm talking about in his derogatory posts. He went straight to the chest beating. I will say though, the last few times he's defended himself he has done so with the up most class. He has been calm and articulate and I salute him for that, it probably isn't easy.

You're free to call me sexist, but I'm not, that's just not true. If any of you ladies are offended I am sorry. I've never in my life been called a sexist. I won't discuss this in this thread either. If you'd like, I'd be willing to discuss it in a new thread, or in PM. I don't want to derail this thread but I seriously don't like the idea of being perceived as a sexist.

So if you and LS are aware of programming at this level, you guys should set the examples. I do not feel in his earlier posts with Bill he set a positive example. I feel he went into the chest beating response. You need to practice what you preach or nobody will listen.

[SKIBADABOMSKI]

******************

[Teakai]

Posted by Lord Sidious (here)
We are told that, but is it true?
Did the whites really screw the nation up? How much is poticially correct rubbish?
We will never know, until we kill this racism madness.
Political correctness is like a gastic band for the intellect.

I’d say it’s true on the grounds that the Aboriginals didn’t have the technology to mess it up too bad. Also, they respected the land and animals spiritually, which is a far cry from how it’s been treated by our culture – the one whose bottom line is money, profit and ownership.

I don’t do political correctness. I think it’s a heap of crap. I really think this about what our modern culture has done to the indigenous culture, though

Posted by Lord Sidious (here)

Posted by Teakai (here)

Posted by Whitehaze (here)
Race. In the beginning it was the human race, and in the end it was the human race. All these labels we keep applying to particular members of the human race needs to stop in order for the human race to move on. When we finally get THIS clue we are going to find that there is no color that seperates the true light that resides within us all.

Agreed. It's not at all the colour - that's just an easy identifier- it's more the culture and the attatchments one holds in regard to it that are doing the damage. In regard to Australian one culture destroyed another.
They were totally incompatible.
One culture knew nothing of ownership while the other was all about ownership. One culture believed they belonged to the land, the other believed the land belonged to them.
It was always doomed with such a mindset.

And you proved my point, it is not about skin colour, it is all about economics/money.
The system created this to play divide and conquer and this very thread is evidence that not only does it work, it is still working, even here where we think we are more ''advanced'' than others.
But are we?

Agree – and this culture mainly represents all people with white coloured skin. I’ve always wondered how that came about. Did it start when ‘they’ started messing with the DNA?

Also – I don’t think we are more advanced at all. Our technology has made us infantile and spiritually bereft. Take it away and most of us would be unable to survive.

[mosquito]

Wow, that's been a fascinating, if rather long, read ! So here's the take of a middle-aged, childish, occasionally wise, exiled white man :

GUILT - I am categorically NOT responsible for the actions of my forebears, my fellow countrymen (or women) or anyone else. I am also NOT guilty of any other kind of sh1t that anyone wants to project onto me. I AM, however, totally responsible for my life, my actions, my responses to other peoples' actions and statements. That's very different to guilt.

RACISM - A much loved word, especially for those who love being its' victims. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist - it does. I used to live in South Africa, so believe me, I've seen racism and, contrary to what "Guardian" reading, BBC watching people want to beleive, it WAS NOT confined to white people. This will be confirmed by anyone who's lived in Africa. I also used to live in Handsworth in Birmingham, a real racial melting pot, and not a bad place at all. The racism I encountered there was between West Indians and Asians, you wouldn't believe some of the things they used to say about each other.

EVOLVING - Or "becoming conscious". This is not a linear journey leading upwards, as so many people like to believe. It's an outward, expansive journey, becoming conscious means becoming fully aware of who we are, ESPECIALLY the parts we don't like and spend most of our waking time pretending don't exist. How do we know what they are ? They are the things which push our buttons and really piss us off in others. (This is sort of on a par with what LS was saying about detoxing). We need to acknowledge our own inherent capacity to commit attrocities and to acknowledge when they have been commited in the past. THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE HAVE TO ACCEPT GUILT ! As we bring these things to light (ie become aware of them and acknowledge them), we will go through a purgatorial phase (detoxing), and can expect our buttons to get pressed even more. Then one glorious day, they cease to be an issue, and we cease to respond. (This takes a while !!!!!!)

NOW - OK, so we've acknowledged that men, women, white, black and pink have all done bad things in the past, but what about now ? What about the attrocities being commited in your name TODAY ? Who's responsible ? "Oh", I hear you say, "It's the powers-that-be, it's "them"". No it isn't. It's you and me. What do we do about it ? Voting for a new regime clearly doesn't work, so what's the answer ? Isn't this something we ought to start discussing ? As for me, I decided 5 years ago to stop supporting the UK government with my presence and my tax money, but where can I go ? Where on this beautiful Earth is free of tyranny and egotistical, pathetic, stupid little men in suits telling us what we can and can't do ?

CONCLUSION - I don't know the answers to the above questions, all I can do is continue working on myself, continue looking at what's been swept under the carpet over countless generations, continue to accept that the horrors of this world ARE a reflection of my deepest, darkest humanity (and yours !) and to accept responsibility for changing myself and thereby changing our world.

Power and freedom to you all

[Jeffrey]

This interjection is intended to sooth any parties feeling troubled, and is a wholeheartedly peaceful post.

Here is a good rule of thumb that I use to check myself from time to time.

Before you talk, be certain that what you say is:

Truthful
Appropriate
Lucid
Kind

I find that following this rule befits acknowledging the sensitivity of language in accordance with how people receive what is said.

Much Love and Thanks,

Vivek

[161803398]

I think its always important to get the kaleidiscope turned at the correct angle. Many things are labelled racist that actually have nothing to do with race. For instance, there are "elitists" and wanna be elitists of many types. While there are wealthy elitists; brainy elitists; and talented elitists it really goes all the way down the ladder to poor, dumb ass jerks who just want to feel they are better than someone else.

In British Columbia there are a lot of "aboriginal people" - Indians; or First Nations; or Metis. I know of lot of Indians and I think most of them know this. but for those who don't, I tell them: don't think the PTB treat you like **** because they are racist; because they treat me like **** too and I am white. They treat everyone like ****.

Some people just don't know how to handle power of any kind; and that could include any sort of power including something as simple as the power to cut off a telephone or even just the power to help. The problem is exacerbated when they don't have a basic sense of connection with the community.

Then there are other people who have a problem with their status. That's why I think you tend to get a lot of so called "racists" of the dumb ass jerk variety.

Then there are the rest of us, most of whom wouldn't give a rat's ass what colour or race or religion anyone was if it hadn't been made an issue. We might not instantly feel totally at home in an unfamiliar group; but we'd get over it and probably pretty fast. Now that its been made an issue; some people are afraid of it... and they lie to themselves or bash themselves or try to do the right thing -- all of which messes them up.

What saved me from most of the bull**** is that I don't group according to colour. I always felt most at home with fishermen, farmers and some intellectuals. You know there isn't much difference between a farmer from China or a farmer from Ireland or a farmer from anywhere in the world. Same with fisher people. The people most like the Indians on the coast of British Columbia would be Icelanders - to me, anyway. I once met a Chinese professor at the University who said "my country is the university". There's another guy who groups differently. Again, that's why you get a lot of dumb ass so called racists -- too stupid to think of anything more subtle than the totally obvious.

[Ross]

Apparently I'm a first generation Hybrid, so where does that leave me? should I be offended

Ross

[DevilPigeon]

Posted by Chinaski (here)

Posted by Lord Sidious (here)
So the solution to the problem is shoot the messenger?
Interesting.

it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.

Wrong. I fully support Lord Sid 110%.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Chinaski (here)

Posted by sepia (here)

Posted by Chinaski (here)

Posted by Lord Sidious (here)
So the solution to the problem is shoot the messenger?
Interesting.

it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.

Sorry to be sharp here: You have no idea what you are talking about.

Sepia

correction then: 2 people have a problem here

3. Minimum.

[DevilPigeon]

Posted by Chinaski (here)

Posted by HORIZONS (here)

Posted by Chinaski (here)
it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.

I disagree! But you seem to be having a problem with this (?) Just an observation - not an attack.

the "problem" i was referring to was the reaction to Bill's post. its completely contrived and inane, and serves no purpose other than to bring attention to Sidious and his alleged "lesson of the day". do i have a problem with it? yeah, i guess i do.

It's not inane at all, and it's not solely about the comment made. It's deeper than that.

[Humble Janitor]

I don't see anything racist about what Bill said. In fact, I dare say that he's correct. While native peoples were certainly not perfect, they did not cause anywhere near the amount of harm that their white counterparts caused with the advent of industrialization and colonial pursuits.

But, the past is the past and all can be forgiven. We must pay attention to our impact upon this planet, regardless of our race or background.

[Amer]

Posted by Strat
You're free to call me sexist, but I'm not, that's just not true. If any of you ladies are offended I am sorry. I've never in my life been called a sexist. I won't discuss this in this thread either. If you'd like, I'd be willing to discuss it in a new thread, or in PM. I don't want to derail this thread but I seriously don't like the idea of being perceived as a sexist.

Hi strat, I really don't think that Flash was calling you a sexist- please don't take that from what was said, you certainly did not offend me. I think her point is that we have the idea of being seperate from one another ingrained in our unconscious and that makes for the creation of a problematic society.

Posted by Strat
There has to be some level where age matters. Maybe it's just me, but I don't feel as though my niece has a lot of wisdom. She's cute, but she doesn't know much about life. This is why I try to teach and protect her.

You know Strat I believe that children may know a lot more than us adults! The biggest change in my life happened when I became a mother and along with it came a challenge so great and so full of responsibility that it is terrifying and fantastic all in one. I consider my three-year-old more wise than me in a pure sense. He answers me in ways that take my breath away and leave me truly humbled. He makes me want to be the best that I am in every sense, to make a difference in this world if only on the smallest of levels, because of him I am learning about what responsibility means- being responsible for myself and how I interact with the world around me. That he should provoke this in me I believe him to be indeed wise!

In all of this thread- which I believe to be of value- there have been great observations from many people and I salute everyone here who is for meaningful discussion and thank ye for it. One observation resonates with me so much and it is this:

Posted by K626
Racism is learnt behaviour. It is taught and it often starts in the family and is re-inforced at school.

I knew a man once who raised his children to hate the English. From a young age just like when we say to toddlers what does the moo-cow say- he would say to his sons "what are the English?" And his small boys who didn't even know what they were saying would respond as had been taught by their father- "the English are bastards."

This is one example of how we ruin the world, how we make the killers of tomorrow. This is another endless form of child abuse- teaching them racism; perpetuating the continual dragging around of baggage and ingrained mis-conceived notions about who we are in the world, perpetuating hate, killing purity and promise in its infancy. The shame and the sadness of it all.

My heartfelt plea to myself and all is this: Let us be models of light for our children in all that we endeavor to do.

[jjl]

white men should be able to call each other white. In the inner city US the word N***** is bandied around by african americans. It's a term a white person should never use, being outside the culture. But by the same philosophy, whites should be allowed to be critical of thier own race in a way that might not be well tolerated coming from other races.

[Eric J (Viking)]

Hmmm...

He said this..you said that..apologise for this , and apoligise for that...black white yellow we are all one, and we know this, dont we.

Keep on track guys, the energies are very high at the moment...deal with it...things have been taking out of context...

United we stand, divided we fall. United we will be.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=h3f5a8B4ESA

viking