Censorship here?

[Mad Hatter]

Hi Uli,

With the benefit of hindsight (20/20 vision) and with the utmost respect the point I was trying to get across was the general position of various posters on various threads coming forth with that particular take on the matter at hand. Perhaps I should have looked long and hard at some of my own posts to see if I could have used me as an example instead.

It was never intended to be construed as one particular members viewpoint but an attempt to get across a generalisation of the look and feel of some posts.

Of course anyone else can and is free to identify with any of the generalisations I made but I would consider that unfortunate because it was not my intent to single anyone out. If I had wanted to do such a thing I would have used quotes.

I humbly apologise to you and anyone else who has taken offence as it was never my intent.

From the voyeur in me to the voyeur in you....

[NancyV]

Posted by blake (here)

Posted by NancyV (here)
This forum is already set up with it's guidelines and moderators and is going along just fine for most of us. A few people want to reorganize a few thousand people and take over decision making from those who have already set it up. It would be better for those who want administrative changes to open their own forum and administrate it in the way they would like, just as Chicodoodoo was going to do, just as those at NEXUS are doing.

The only thing I see that needs to be improved is for those who love complaining about the way Avalon is moderated to either give it up as a lost cause or go elsewhere. It is the way it is. Of course it will change organically as time passes, everything changes, but if you want radical and immediate change it's most likely not going to happen here. You want a jury? Not going to happen here. You want voting? Not going to happen here. All these suggestions would entail HUGE amounts of extra work for.... guess who? Bill and the volunteer moderators! Plus there are not many who see a need for such changes. Those who want those changes are free to leave and start or search for a forum that fulfills their desires.

This is not a democracy or a meritocracy, it's a benevolent dictatorship as are the vast majority of forums on the Internet. The few that aren't are usually quite chaotic and often unpleasant for people who don't like constant conflict and complaining.

Hello Ms V,

I don’t quite follow your reasoning. We do indeed seem to have two different perspectives on this issue; but, if it is not too upsetting to you, I would like to try to understand yours a bit more. My perspective is that no matter what the various members say, Avalon will always be a dictatorship. Members can say whatever they want, politely of course; but the bottom line is that the member’s words have absolutely no power to change anything about how Avalon is run. So, to me, all this talk about Avalon remaining a dictatorship and not changing its rules is a moot point.

Hello Mr. Davis,

You are probably correct that our perspectives are somewhat different, but I'm sure our differences are rather minute in the big picture. Thank you for explaining your perspective and please understand that I am not upset, maybe a bit "stimulated" or passionate at times, but not upset in a negative or uncomfortable way. So if you think any of my statements/criticisms were intense, you haven't seen me when I'm intense. I was definitely using my "nice" tone here. So it's all relative and a matter of perspective, as is everything.

Posted by Blake
I am curious as to why any intellectual discussion, on any non violent topic, could possibly trigger such intense criticism, and the seemingly enforced limitation on freedom of speech that some commenting on this thread seem to be advocating whether they realize it or not.

Since no one is forced to read any thread, why does anyone object to any topic on any one thread as long as it is non violent and does not blazingly be rude to anyone? It seems that you, and others prefer that there be limitation on what can and can not be discussed. Why? I don’t believe any thread has any power, except to share knowledge, opinions, and maybe, just maybe widen someone’s perspective to see more than they didn’t see before. They may not agree, but at least maybe they can begin to understand the other human’s perspective; and isn’t that the first step to peaceful co existence?

I guess I am just so puzzled because even if there was an ongoing thread of interested parties talking about this issue about how Avalon could be different, it is just virtual keyboard warriors talking….. no coup could actually take place! But more importantly no one is forced to read it. I may love to be on the debate team, but some people may prefer to be in the band. Isn’t the Avalon forum big enough for us all? Or do we really have to choose? That is what I feel all those reading this particular thread, who were upset by the thread, is forcing a point on, that should not have to be forced. Freedom of speech is healthy on so many levels for all, when done with respect.

I completely agree with your reasoning here. The way you present your arguments is reasonable and intelligent. You are not engaging in personal attacks or hints that could be construed as an ad hominem attack or impugning my integrity, in fact you are most likely a lot more reasonable and less passionate than I am.

I have no problem with any thread as long as those who are discussing things are not subtly trying to undermine Bill and the moderators as, in my opinion, Chico and a few others were doing. If they actually think their suggestions are going to be implemented but I am fairly sure those suggestions are not going to be implemented I will often state what I see as the reality. Maybe those who are pushing for changes to their way of running the forum think things will change because of their complaints or maybe they like to indulge in confrontation and criticisms more than I do, which is fine.

I agree with your point regarding any thread being okay as long as people discuss things reasonably respectfully. Of course there may be a few subjects that Bill might find to not be in alignment with the purposes for which he formed Avalon and it is always his right and his judgment call to discontinue those threads. He's the boss.

I occasionally have a tendency to get a bit impatient in a situation where I see someone whose head is hurting and I am sometimes drawn to giving them a bit of help in stopping the pain. Maybe it's my motherly instincts. If I'm feeling compassionate I will mention to them that they are wielding the hammer that is hitting them on the head over and over. To be perfectly honest I am also not an avoider of conflict, in fact I have drawn much conflict into my life at different times. Communicating on a forum with people with whom you disagree is always a GREAT lesson for me in working on patience and diplomacy.... and I do fail in both areas on occasion.

Posted by Blake
Do you remember when Gaddafi years ago invited all the poets, writers and painters to come and have an open forum on literature and the arts to promote the culture of Libya?
After everyone who wanted to participate in this “wonderful” forum signed in, Gaddafi immediately had them all thrown in jail. And, sadly, some of these writers, poets and artists are still in jail…..and for what crime? Promoting a different view than he had. He felt he needed to protect his power. I never could understand why freedom of speech, especially through the arts, could be such a threat to so many. I am equally puzzled why freedom of speech, by powerless keyboard warriors appears to be such threat to those who run Avalon?

Yes, that was horrific. He truly is a monster. There are many things which used to puzzle me but I am no longer surprised by all the evil in the world. Saying that you are equally puzzled by this Avalon situation in the same context as talking about the evil Gaddafi, subtly or not so subtly will equate them in some people's minds. They are not even close to equal and any comparison between the two is a huge stretch in my opinion. In fact I think you're smart enough to know that there is no comparison so I wonder why you would lump them together so they look like they relate in any way whatsoever.

Posted by Blake
You might say you don’t want to be part of a thread that you perceive as beating beat a dead horse. Maybe from your perspective it is dead, but maybe from another’s view point it is not. But more importantly, you have the free will to choose to read a different thread.

Absolutely true, but I can be drawn to conflict, if the subject interests me, like a moth to a flame.

Posted by Blake
Is it not best to remember that Avalon is all virtual? Everyone is safe. There is no need to fear a power grab here. The rules will not be changed no matter what is discussed. So since the bottom line is that the rules cannot be changed by anyone except Bill Ryan, why would anyone object so vehemently against someone’s opinion as what I seemed to witness in this virtual opinion thread?

Of course, you, Ms V, are under no obligation to read this let alone answer it. I am just curious why you spent your valuable time reading a thread that obviously was upsetting you, but could not hurt you in any way or change how Avalon is run.

Are you saying, Mr. Blake, that virtual is not "real"? That would be a good subject for a thread. What exactly is "real"? Words have power and "the pen is mightier than the sword" upon occasion. So I don't see the argument that "virtual" does not have the power to stimulate emotions as a valid one. It would be fun to debate it. I almost never take anything personally but that's because I don't really care if someone doesn't like me or my words, so I do feel safe in this virtual world, but many people don't. In fact we have had a spate of teenage suicides in the US because the kids took the virtual world too seriously and allowed themselves to care too much what others said about them. So to many people virtual is real.

As far as spending my valuable time reading a thread which stimulates me to reply either pro or con, I am doing exactly what I want to do. Why I do certain things will likely remain a mystery. I gave up extensive self analysis as an exercise in mental masturbation a while back.

Posted by Blake
In this day and age, unfortunately, the American government can call anyone an enemy combatant that they choose. Police are often annoyed, and will even arrest Americans quoting the Federal Constitution. Those in governmental power have a real fear of the waking of the masses, and many in power feel that dissent must be suppressed. However, in the virtual world of Avalon, as I have stated before, the members have no power. They can only state their opinions. Mr. Ryan and his moderating team call all the shots. So why are they apparently so afraid of free speech on this forum?

What you have said about the American government is partially true, although since 2 of my husbands were cops I don't like to see "Police" all painted with the same broad strokes. Again you are stating a horrible fact and then mentioning Avalon in the same paragraph as though they equate. They don't.

I don't think Bill and the moderators are are at all "afraid" of free speech. They only care about the WAY people speak to others and wish to keep it fairly civil. But this forum has guidelines and is NOT a "free speech" zone. It is a moderated forum.

Posted by Blake
Why is it that many are reading threads they object to? Why not read a different thread?

I suppose some of us are fascinated with the conflict, others of us feel protective of Bill, the moderators and Avalon. Some think they are helping, some like to talk a lot, some of us are driven by our egos... and there are many other reasons why we read threads which might irritate us.

Posted by Blake
Why is it not okay for members to start a thread discussing the banning of members?

MANY threads have been discussing the banning of members and many new ones have been started. Even as a very patient mother, when my two year old started spouting the "F" word over and over I told her to STOP. The responsibility of a moderator is to keep things fairly moderate. The most patient person occasionally gets impatient with a child who keeps on whining about the SAME THING over and over and over. Relentless negativity and complaints have a vibration which can permeate even the virtual world. I can feel it and I'm sure everyone can feel it on one level or another.

Posted by Blake
I will admit, there are some threads that I will not even open when I see who starts them. I am happy for them to have the platform to discuss what they want to discuss, but I will only open threads that I have an interest in. So I am confused why so many people who apparently get upset with Chicodoodoo’s viewpoint would even open up one of his threads?

It was not Chico's viewpoint, it was his modus operandi that was tiring. He had to know that his continuous beating of the same drum would eventually wear on even the most patient and saintly person. His not so subtle impugning of Bill and Avalon was like a campaign. It was also counter productive to the energy in the forum. (in my opinion, of course)

Posted by Blake
People can talk about love and light all they want, words can be, after all very cheap. But in my opinion, until right action is shown by humans seeking to understand those they may disagree with, as long as people have fear where no real threat exists, then humans will continue to mistreat each other and this new model of society that Mr. Ryan speaks of will never come to be.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

Aye, there's the rub. Whose definition of right action will you use? I know...I will use mine and you will use yours. If you think you have the truth and you know the "right action" for all humans, that would be delusional. I'm not saying you do think that, but if anyone thinks they have the answers for everyone else I would be very cautious of that person. I personally do not even dwell upon the possibility of everyone living in "peace and love" here on this earth. Could it happen? Sure, anything is possible. But I don't think it will happen in my lifetime and I don't even know that this earth is supposed to be a place of love and light. Perhaps it's more about balance and we each get to choose if we will gravitate more towards the light or the dark or vacillate between the two within the gray areas.

Nancy

[ulli]

Posted by Mad Hatter (here)
Hi Uli,

With the benefit of hindsight (20/20 vision) and with the utmost respect the point I was trying to get across was the general position of various posters on various threads coming forth with that particular take on the matter at hand. Perhaps I should have looked long and hard at some of my own posts to see if I could have used me as an example instead.

It was never intended to be construed as one particular members viewpoint but an attempt to get across a generalisation of the look and feel of some posts.

Of course anyone else can and is free to identify with any of the generalisations I made but I would consider that unfortunate because it was not my intent to single anyone out. If I had wanted to do such a thing I would have used quotes.

I humbly apologise to you and anyone else who has taken offence as it was never my intent.

From the voyeur in me to the voyeur in you....

so now that's been cleared up....

and this thread seems to be fizzling....

wanna go and watch another movie with me?

Alice in Wonderland?

[sandy]

Posted by qbeac (here)
Hi Paul, please, tell me, have you read the JFK speech included in my post 127? This one:

Post #127, pag. 7. JFK speech "The President and the Press" (1961)
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post219355

Paul, do you mind telling Bill Ryan about that speech and about the 2 questions I ask him in that post?

Thanks.

If you review my first 3 posts in this thread (#14, #44, #52 in pag 1 and 3) you’ll see that I asked you a couple of questions about the Chicodoodoo incident.

Please, could you answer them? Thanks.

And in the meantime, while you think about it, I’ll ask you another question, but this one is EXTREMELLY SIMPLE to answer because it does not even require an elaborate answer from you, but just a very simple choice between the 2 following options, “a” or “b”, which are based on the JFK speech in post #127 (pag7).

Paul, please, from the following 2 options (based on the JFK speech), which option would you choose, “a” or “b”?

Option a)

Without debate, without criticism, no Administration and no country [and no Internet Forum] can succeed and no republic can survive.

I not only could not stifle controversy among your readers -- I welcome it.

This Administration [Internet Forum] intends to be candid about its errors; for as a wise man once said: "An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it."

We intend to accept full responsibility for our errors and we expect you to point them out when we miss them.

Option b)

With debate, with criticism, no Administration and no country and no Internet Forum can succeed and no republic and no Internet Forum can survive.

I not only could stifle controversy among your readers -- I reject it.

This Forum does not intend to be candid about its errors; for as a wise man once said: "An error becomes a mistake when you admit it."

We do not intend to accept full responsibility for our errors and we do not expect you to point them out when we miss them.

Please, Paul, which option do you prefer, “a” or “b”?

I ask the same question to Bill Ryan, and also to the rest of the Avalon members.

Thanks.

Dear qbeac,

Love your question and my answer to your request from Avalon members is DEFINITELY " A"

[qbeac]

Posted by NancyV (here)
This forum is already set up with it's guidelines and moderators and is going along just fine for most of us. A few people want to reorganize a few thousand people and take over decision making from those who have already set it up. It would be better for those who want administrative changes to open their own forum and administrate it in the way they would like, just as Chicodoodoo was going to do, just as those at NEXUS are doing.

The only thing I see that needs to be improved is for those who love complaining about the way Avalon is moderated to either give it up as a lost cause or go elsewhere. It is the way it is. Of course it will change organically as time passes, everything changes, but if you want radical and immediate change it's most likely not going to happen here. You want a jury? Not going to happen here. You want voting? Not going to happen here. All these suggestions would entail HUGE amounts of extra work for.... guess who? Bill and the volunteer moderators! Plus there are not many who see a need for such changes. Those who want those changes are free to leave and start or search for a forum that fulfills their desires.

This is not a democracy or a meritocracy, it's a benevolent dictatorship as are the vast majority of forums on the Internet. The few that aren't are usually quite chaotic and often unpleasant for people who don't like constant conflict and complaining.

(Note: emphasis added by me in the above comment by Nancy)

Hi NancyV,

You have clarified something important when you say:

This [Avalon Forum] is not a democracy or a meritocracy, it's a benevolent dictatorship

Well, if that’s the case (and Bill Ryan should say if it is or not): Would it be necessary or appropriate to include that statement in the front page of this forum so that everybody knows it ahead of time?

(Note: I realize this is a point we could delve into, but we can do it some other time if you want)

Also, when you say:

This forum [Avalon]… is going along just fine for most of us. A few people want to reorganize a few thousand people…

My question to you is: How do you come up with that number or figure (“most of us”, “few” versus “thousands”)?

The reason why I ask is because, in my case, I could not tell “how many” persons are satisfied or not with this forum right now. I simply don’t know. But there is a way to know it for sure without having to estimate it:

A Poll.

A Poll would measure the level of satisfaction of members regarding different subjects related to the forum (depending on how the questions are designed).

And my intuition tells me (but I could be wrong) that there will probably be a significant number of persons (I am not saying the majority, but an important enough number worth taking into consideration, but I am not sure) that would probably like to debate the subject of how the forum is going along, or whether or not several improvements (Ex: checks and balances system, jury, etc.) could or should be done to it in comparison to the current situation.

For instance, at least 18 persons (the ones who thanked Chicodoodoo for starting this thread in Post #1 plus himself) would probably like to talk about this matter, and there will probably be more if the Poll was started.

In summary:

Only a Poll could tell us with more accuracy (depending on how many people participate in it) what that number is: very little, normal, big, very big… 10%, 30%, 50%, 60%, 80%... etc….???

If anybody is interested in knowing with more accuracy that number, I would encourage them to open a poll to find out.

It could be a multiple choice Poll, and its title could be, for instance (there are many more options):

Do you think this forum could be improved by a checks and balances system, jury, etc.?

[sunnyrap]

Posted by buckminster fuller (here)

Posted by qbeac (here)
Note: I am also posting this post in the Project Camelot forum, at link:

...

Clearly and precisely... For anyone aware of what kind of positive energy chico has been bringing to this forum, the decision to simply give up on him is a definite no-go for what I'm concerned about.

You have my full support. Thanks for stepping in

Posted by blake (here)
Hello All,

So sorry that a man

...

Indeed, dots connecting, synthesis, humanism... Contrary to what some people, in a pretty mean fashion, have been saying, I will certainly not buy that chico was on some ego trip... His level of insights for sure did not come from some individualistic perspective.
We people need more guys like him.

Peace

I met Buckminister Fuller years ago when involved in something called 'The Los Angeles World Hunger Event'. The man captured my heart with his brilliance and deep spirituality. One of the things he told our group was that if we humans weren't failing at least 50% of the time, we were not living productively and were learning nothing. Ergo, it also follows that we should allow each other to make mistakes so that it is safe to act courageously and share what we learn from the experience.

It was also him, by the way, that instructed us that the dissenters, even the really obnoxious negative ones, were valuable to us all--because, like the grain of sand in an oyster's shell...pearls were developed.

This appears to be happening here, now doesn't it?

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by sandy (here)
Dear qbeac,

Love your question and my answer to your request from Avalon members is DEFINITELY " A"

There is a fundamental difference between a state and a web forum.

A state has a monopoly over its citizens, in whatever way it chooses, and is allowed, to impose its will. For example, its usually has a monopoly on the substantial use of force. If the state uses its powers to prohibit something, no one within the state can with impunity do or say that something. Therefore state power must be heavily biased toward respecting individual liberty, diversity and freedom, or else there will be intolerable violations of same.

Web forums support liberty, diversity and freedom in their multiplicity and variety, not necessarily in their internal procedures. Having a web forum that prohibits anyone joining who has -ever- used a bovine avatar does not impinge on my freedoms one wit. I just won't join them.

If I am only allowed to grow or purchase a -single- plant for food, then that plant had better have all the nutrients that I seek to obtain from the plant based portion of my diet. If I have a rich diversity of plant foods available for my consumption, then it is entirely fine by me that some of those plant foods are very specialized in their contents, perhaps even quite toxic to me personally if I have some particular allergy to them (e.g. if I had a peanut allergy.)

I absolutely would -not- mandate that all web forums support any particular form of due process or respect for freedom of speech or manner of processing errors or avoidance of any specific amount of secrecy. That is, and should remain, up to the individuals owning each web forum.

We have seen what the imposition of "public" (really corporate and TPTB, via the nation state) standards has done to our schools. God forbid we should contemplate any such tyranny over web forums.

Demanding that all web forums, or even that any particular web forum, submit to the tyranny of the majority risks being one step along this road.

I say No to that.

[Carmody]

Finding the line between constructive and destructive is a fine art.

As well, due to individuality and differing minds, thought processes, etc, we all see that point differently.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by qbeac (here)
It could be a multiple choice Poll, and its title could be, for instance (there are many more options):

Do you think this forum could be improved by a checks and balances system, jury, etc.?

Please don't.

A poll asking about something that is not going to happen would be yet further distraction, further stirring of the pot.

It would also be more attractive to those who don't like the way this forum is currently, than it would to those are off busy doing other things on this forum, so the results would be biased.

[sandy]

Posted by buckminster fuller (here)
Thanks Mr. Davis.. A lot of good points here... I'd like to add that if Avalon is in anyway meant to play a role in the bettering of this world, loosing such valuable members as chico is a real drama, despite his eloquence and the vigorous faith in what he believes in. That people here feel relieved that the subject is now closed, as it means that a member who has been focusing on the greater common good is gone, doesn't match the idea that I had about the overall mentality here. It starts to feel like some kind of dogma is shaping the way ideas are received. Creativity doesn't flow, spirituality often gets mixed up with problem solving, pragmatic views. Don't forget that the ego finds its power source in what people thinks others think about them. The "group effect" feeds on that, and it takes some openness to welcome views that differ from ours.

Dissent is needed, as there is no hope for creativity if doors remain closed and if no questions are asked.

Chico deserves an apology from many already, maybe some people will see that when they go over some of his older posts. I hope so for them anyway.

Peace

Thank You buckminister and I agree with you

Personally I think that there is a problem with Hypocrisy versus Personal Integrity

By this I mean: Avalons' new direction is one of positive energy etc, so in reality>>>>>>>>does one role model this or do they create dissent by there very own actions of censorship, banning etc thus feeding the negative or so labeled thread and or poster> I say stop blaming, labeling, directing to one way of being and on and on and practice what you preach.

[andywight]

Posted by andywight (here)
Chico, hope you don't mind me posting this here, PM me if you want me to delete.

== Post edited ,please abstain from qouting posts from other forums ==

THANKS

Am I the only member here that thinks it's a little ironic that my first ever post to be censored is on a thread called "Censorship here?"

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by sandy (here)
Thank You buckminister and I agree with you

Personally I think that there is a problem with Hypocrisy versus Personal Integrity

By this I mean: Avalons' new direction is one of positive energy etc, so in reality>>>>>>>>does one role model this or do they create dissent by there very own actions of censorship, banning etc thus feeding the negative or so labeled thread and or poster> I say stop blaming, labeling, directing to one way of being and on and on and practice what you preach.

Sometimes an artist who is reaching the height of their creative expression will be manically obsessive about certain details of their daily routine or equipment. Is this hypocrisy?

I think not.

I personally am quite familiar with creating new computer software concepts and bringing them to realization. I was and remain rather obsessive about certain details of how I organize, process and manage the software I create. Is this hypocrisy?

I think not.

This forum is a tool for supporting its members and its founders purpose. Do not confuse the tool with the ultimate purpose.

[Jeffrey]

I understand Paul. I am new to forums. I am somewhat of an idealist and trying to find pragmatic solution for these types of situations isn't easy. I'm not certain it's even possible. Everybody can't be pleased all of the time. I appreciate what you all do and I am happy to be here. I do like discussions like this though, if anything they can act as a pressure valve for concerns of the like. I, however, am an implacable optimist. I can empathize how this thread may seem to undermine the responsibilities of the moderators, and that our faculties of reason could be used to further investigate more worthy endeavors. I am not trying to be political here; I just enjoy stretching my perception to encompass views outside of my own. Life on earth is about, among other things, change, expansion, and growth. I am trying my best.

Much Love and Thanks,

Vivek

[3optic]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by qbeac (here)
It could be a multiple choice Poll, and its title could be, for instance (there are many more options):

Do you think this forum could be improved by a checks and balances system, jury, etc.?

Please don't.

A poll asking about something that is not going to happen would be yet further distraction, further stirring of the pot.

It would also be more attractive to those who don't like the way this forum is currently, than it would to those are off busy doing other things on this forum, so the results would be biased.

I vote no. Good grief.

[qbeac]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by qbeac (here)
It could be a multiple choice Poll, and its title could be, for instance (there are many more options):

Do you think this forum could be improved by a checks and balances system, jury, etc.?

Please don't.

A poll asking about something that is not going to happen would be yet further distraction, further stirring of the pot.

It would also be more attractive to those who don't like the way this forum is currently, than it would to those are off busy doing other things on this forum, so the results would be biased.

(Note: emphasis added by me in the above comment by Paul)

Hi Paul, do you mean that you are against anybody opening that Poll in Avalon?

We already talked in this forum about what Polls do back in January-February-11 when the famous Charles’ Poll was conducted.

Polls are just “instruments” to gather data.

And you can gather many different types of data depending on how the Poll’s questions are written.

Polls are also more accurate than a simple “estimation” (as NancyV has done: “most” of us, “few” versus “thousand”).

And if anybody thinks a particular Poll is not well designed, or if it is not gathering the right data, he/she can always start his/her own Poll, designed his/her own way, to gather the data of his/her own choosing.

Btw, is there any guideline in Avalon against opening Polls?

Can you tell us which specific guideline is it? (Note: I don’t remember any forum with a prohibition for opening polls)

In any case, Paul, do you mind if I post your post in the Project Camelot forum?

The reason why I ask is because I would like to ask people over there what they think about Polls, if they think Polls could be useful or not to gather data we are not sure about, or if they think we should be afraid of finding out Poll’s results or not, etc.

Thanks.

[FrankoL]

Posted by Vivek (here)
How is one chosen to be a moderator for the forum?
Much Love and Thanks,

Vivek

This is a good question. A lot of feathers is required (hahaha). Funny thing is how they end.... naked, no feathers left
P.S:
(please forgive me, but I couldn’t resist)

[ThePythonicCow]

I should have stated more clearly that my "Please don't" was in response to the poll I quoted, with your suggested Title of "Do you think this forum could be improved by a checks and balances system, jury, etc.?" Such a title, in my view, suggested that that question was open for consideration, and that the results of the poll might influence the decision of whether to attempt such a change in our forum procedures. To the best of my knowledge and as other mods have clearly and repeatedly stated within the last day, no such changes to forum procedures are being contemplated.

Yes, polls are held. No, I do not recall any guidelines specific to polls.

Whether or not I object to your quoting me on Project Camelot is immaterial.

I am not afraid of such a poll's results. Bill will continue to decide such matters; not I, not you and not a poll. I do find the continued effort to find various ways to raise the same complaints, in various forms (such as polls in this instance) to be a mixed bag. Some good thoughts get posted on the topic, but it is also a distraction from the real purposes of this site, in my view.

Before posting such a poll, as with any thread, I would ask that you be clear on your purpose. If such a poll looked to me like just another way to continue raising the same complaints that have already been raised, repeatedly, then you would be right in suspecting that I would not be enthusiastic. I and the rest of the mods would do our best to treat that poll, and any such thread or post re-raising these complaints, in a fair and proper manner. You might not agree with what that entailed, and we might be imperfect in our determinations.

[Jeffrey]

One more thought...

I think part of the concern is people thinking twice about voicing their opinions in the future. The, "what if I'm next" type of mentality. Similar to the, "anybody could be a terrorist" mentality in the world right now. This is fear disguised as rationality. Trust has been damaged for some here, and pride may be the culprit hindering reconciliation.

"Everyone genuinely thinks they are right and doing the right thing—that is everyone without exception is acting for the best." -From the Relationship Thread

This is a stalemate, and it looks as if this could turn into a stale thread. The members that were banned were part of this community; they had a voice here, they have friends here. Some of our members here at Avalon seem to be wounded; Avalon's image may have become disenchanted for them. We are picking at the scab now. Who's got a bandage? I'm beginning to think that if this discussion has any merit, it's fruition is not for this time, and maybe not for this place. Let's practice what we believe in and forgive (this entails a willingness to move on).

“To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you.” -Lewis B. Smedes

This is a great place. There will be rainy days and storms, but that's what makes the grass grow greener. I will not post on this thread again unless I am thoughtfully engaged by another to do so. It is not my wish that a mindful debate turn into a prating dialogue arguing quixotic dispositions against practicalities. Although that would make a good thread in itself save the prating.

Much Love and Thanks,

Vivek

[NancyV]

Posted by qbeac (here)
Hi NancyV,

You have clarified something important when you say:

This [Avalon Forum] is not a democracy or a meritocracy, it's a benevolent dictatorship

Well, if that’s the case (and Bill Ryan should say if it is or not): Would it be necessary or appropriate to include that statement in the front page of this forum so that everybody knows it ahead of time?

Nope, it would not be necessary or appropriate for Bill to have to put MY words "benevolent dictatorship" on the front page of the forum. Do you really think it would be productive for us to ask Bill to either agree or disagree with any verbiage that happens to push our individual buttons because we have chosen to see a negative connotation?

Bill has described this forum many times in many posts in HIS words and he has NEVER used the word I used. I consider any forum that is owned by one or two people with a hierarchical structure of staff to be a type of dictatorship, hopefully it is always a benevolent dictatorship as I consider Avalon to be. Every forum I have been a moderator on was a dictatorship (of a kind). If you have a problem with the word "dictator" because of the possible negative connotations, that sounds like a personal reaction to me.

There are negative connotations to that word and it can also mean a person who has control of an organization, company, government, or forum and who "dictates" the terms. In my family I was a dictator to my children. But like I said, you are apparently thinking of it as a negative. That's fine. I happen to LOVE benevolent dictatorships when it comes to forums. I think it's a much better and more efficient structure than a democracy. Forums are not governments and need to be run efficiently.

[sandy]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by sandy (here)
Thank You buckminister and I agree with you

Personally I think that there is a problem with Hypocrisy versus Personal Integrity

By this I mean: Avalons' new direction is one of positive energy etc, so in reality>>>>>>>>does one role model this or do they create dissent by there very own actions of censorship, banning etc thus feeding the negative or so labeled thread and or poster> I say stop blaming, labeling, directing to one way of being and on and on and practice what you preach.

Sometimes an artist who is reaching the height of their creative expression will be manically obsessive about certain details of their daily routine or equipment. Is this hypocrisy?

I think not.

I personally am quite familiar with creating new computer software concepts and bringing them to realization. I was and remain rather obsessive about certain details of how I organize, process and manage the software I create. Is this hypocrisy?

I think not.

This forum is a tool for supporting its members and its founders purpose. Do not confuse the tool with the ultimate purpose.

Dear Paul,

I'm sorry but you have lost me there, I have no clue as to what you are trying to say. To me hypocrisy means saying one thing and doing the another. I understand there needs to be rules and or guidelines and they have been stated for this new direction. However it appears to me that this new direction which is to be positive in nature, has often been overlooked, when one is saying something about what they believe and may not be positively copacetic with how the plan is being administered.

When I owned my own Human Resources Consulting Firm I took great pains (and sometimes it was just that) to ensure that my actions where true to my stated company mission and direction. Often that meant admitting when I was wrong, made a mistake, apologizing individually and publicly and or transparent reasons for taking a stand, etc. However for the most part all issues were given to the team of staff members to sort out and I trusted them. They always came up with the solution to the problem after dissension of course, but what a tight team they were in the end had a greater sense of belonging and community inside and outside of the workplace.

One might want to revisit the stated new direction when responding to what is deemed negative and or not on the mission of the new direction. Thus, one might want to take the new direction approach of positive encouragement to find a possible solution or alternative to a proposed problem. What I see instead is when one cannot be talked into changing their mind and become positive oriented and drop their issue, they are then given warning to cease and desist this way of thinking or they will be deactivated and or ask to leave.

For the life of me I cannot figure out how these actions which go against the new direction make any sense. Thus again I have to say the new direction and the actions to make this plan come to fruition are hypocritical.

I don't have a fancy vocabulary and seldom use analogies, book references, quotes, etc, to explain where I'm coming from as I find semantics can just be another way to dodge the issue being discussed>>>>Hypocrisy versus Integrity and actions to achieve the new direction. There are many highly intellectual and academic members here on Avalon as well as spiritual. Yet most threads are mind and spiritual candy, sweet to the ego and scarcity for the heart.

Where is the heart of Avalon? Only a few threads here really feed the heart and that is what is needed the most IMHO

I do not agree with how the new direction is being played out so don't often say too much about it. I do enjoy learning and also have engaged myself in Wade Frazier's thread regarding FE, which has the most possibility in my mind to actually achieving a world free from slavery, full of abundance and which could bring about the ideal of a positive society. There is great learning in his writings and I would say that many of today's systems paradigm is integrally apart of what is happening here at Avalon at an unconscious level. Don't see too many members partaking there though (as he has lots of real world experience and wisdom is spiritually astute, shares from the heart and has valuable info to share and not debate), and wonder what is up with that??

Far be it for me to say what is right or wrong for anyone else, thus I speak for only myself, therefore I may be out to lunch for some and beating a dead horse, as I have heard said before so I will drop it.